The Labour Government

Lots of good stuff in there but I cannot agree about means testing the state pension.

You cannot say to someone like me who's paid into the state pension every year for 40+ years, and saved hard so they can retire with a modicum of comfort, "Sorry but because you've made sacrifices and others haven't, they can have a full state pension but you can't". Nor say to someone like my Mrs who missed some years and therefore chose to pay £13k to the HMRC in voluntary NI top up, so that she could get a full state pension, "thanks for the £13k but you aren't getting a full state pension either".

No, no, no. A thousand times no.

I am genuinely quite generous and open to me paying higher tax to help do my bit. But taking my pension away at my stage of life is a red line.

I'm not a violent person but I swear to god there are limits!
That wouldn't be good for me either and there would be plenty of grounds for claiming it wasn't fair.
However as you say , we are in one hell of a mess and regardless of who is to blame we need to get out of it ourselves before a solution is imposed on us. If we are all in it together, that includes wealthier pensioners . Would the IMF impose cuts on your pension ? - you know they would.
 
What "earth" did Labour promise that they have gone back on?

Here's the main promises. Some done, some will take a while.


(Before you reply, check what was actually promised.)
I think you will find they promised not to put up taxes, i dont recall them saying they would stop the WFA, and I dont recall them telling people they were going to squeeze the welfare budget? Unless you can point those out to me in their manifesto ?
 
The commitment was not to raise personal taxes (income tax or NI).

And you've moved from what was actually promised to things that weren't promised. 0f course you don't recall things that didn't happen.
 
I think you have covered the steps we need to take in this and other posts.

We must raise taxes initially - but not to pour into the drain of our failing state apparatus , it would be unconscionable to do so without a radical reformation of the contract between the state and the individual that re-shapes...

Welfare - We must face into the fact that misplaced compassion and good intentions has transmuted our welfare system into an abomination. It is clearly rife with abuse and its very nature traps millions in poverty, drained of aspiration or even hope. It's no accident that the growing economies of Asia choose not to follow the Welfare models of Western Europe, the CCP believes that it only prolongs poverty - it is hard to disagree. It's time to row back and have some very honest conversations , if necessary back to the notion of the "deserving" and "undeserving" poor.
The safety net should be strong for those in genuine need, those that can work must work and work must be seen to pay. £5 Billion off welfare ? Needs to be x 10 .
Let's not forget Pensions , we cannot afford the triple lock and therefore it must go. It is a truth that a lot of pensioners are relatively wealthy and it's not unreasonable to means test the state pension so it is no longer considered a universal benefit. Defined benefit Public sector pensions are unaffordable, everyone knows it and dialogue needs to start now about how that commitment can be unwound.

Immigration is the reverse side of the Welfare coin, fixing Welfare will go a long way to fixing those numbers.Outside of that, permanent low skilled immigration is economic lunacy. Any needs we have should be met by " guest workers" on fixed visas as can be seen in the Gulf, Singapore etc. High skilled migration is needed to fire the economy. It goes without saying we must leave the ECHR etc etc

The NHS will never deliver the ever increasing prohibitively expensive treatments available on a universal basis. We have crossed the Rubicon with the assisted dying bill, we now need to have the courage to discuss how much of the NHS budget is spent treating patients in the last year of life and is there is an age when is not appropriate to do so? Should everyone be entitled to super expensive cancer treatments ? If you instinctively think yes , think about this, it surely won't be long before the research on anti-aging treatments bears some fruit. Initially no doubt this will be for those who can pay for it, in time the need to further monetise those treatments will make them cheaper. Who should get them ? Would you give them to everyone ? The criminals? the idle ? We need to re-think our medical ethics in the world we now live in . Part of that needs to include what can be afforded and what can't in our economic model
The NHS should deliver a basic level of care for everyone very well. After that we need to re-assess what can be done.

The Civil service is unfit for purpose, like the NHS it has far more headcount than pre-covid but productivity levels still way below 2019 due to a combination of WFH and a culture of poor performance management disciplines. Unbelievably there are 30,000 of them working on " policy" - never have so many delivered so little ! Needs a radical shake up headed by political appointees from the private sector. No government will deliver for us until this is resolved.

Education - Our workforce is unbalanced. We need to reduce University provision and degree courses and expand vocational training . Part of that needs to include a much more honest and public discussion about the impact of AI on the economy and jobs market so people can make a more informed decision on their career paths.

Defence - We have no choice, we must spend more to retain our alliances.

All we need then is a politician stand on a platform of raising taxes ( initially at least), slashing welfare, removing the triple lock on pensions and removing its status as a universal benefit, ending Public sector defined benefit pension entitlement, paring immigration to the bare minimum, reducing the role of the NHS and reducing universal eligibility for some treatments, slashing the civil service and changing the work culture, reducing university places and spending more on defence.

Any takers ?

Probably not. So bankruptcy it will be. When it comes , how much of that will be prescribed to us by the market/ IMF ?
I would suggest most of it, maybe not immigration and defence, Tax rises, pension cuts, welfare cuts, Health service cuts, civil service cuts , Education cuts absolutely - Look at Greece, don't think it won't happen

I agree with @Chippy_boy , it looks hopeless. The last time it looked as bad as this was the 70's , but we did come through it, but we had to take some really bad medicine. We can come through this but we MUST take our medicine, ALL of us.
If even half of that is right, why are people so upset about the current government's management of the impossible?
 
All we need then is a politician stand on a platform of raising taxes ( initially at least), slashing welfare, removing the triple lock on pensions and removing its status as a universal benefit, ending Public sector defined benefit pension entitlement, paring immigration to the bare minimum, reducing the role of the NHS and reducing universal eligibility for some treatments, slashing the civil service and changing the work culture, reducing university places and spending more on defence.

Any takers ?

Your plan is that we pay more in taxes, reduce welfare provisions, reduce the pension, end public sector pensions, hobble the economy by limiting immigration to an undefined ‘bare minimum’, reduce or remove our healthcare, reduce the State making it unmanageable - which is weird as we voted for a trade strategy that requires a larger more intrusive State - change the work culture (again undefined) but I suspect its work longer for less and make sure our children have a restricted education.

In summary, we pay more in taxes and have less assuming we don’t die first because we can’t get the healthcare. But at least we would be too uneducated to realise we had become little more than worker drones for the State.

We would have course have a strong military although I am unsure why we are defending what would be, other than for the elite few, a bleak and grim existence.

Remember the days when politics sold us the dream of a positive and better future? Now, it’s work harder, work longer and die early. Maybe you can coin a catchy slogan to help sell your vision of Britain like ‘Work Makes You Free’.
 
They have failed to make the argument in words and actions that we are living beyond our means and that we cannot continue .They want more tax and target pensioners but won’t reform Welfare or the NHS or Civil service or tackle immigration beyond tinkering around the edges so people people believe that additional tax on the main will be wasted and as one poster mentioned they believe that they pay and others take the piss . Additionally it seems they are able to spray money around if it suits them , net zero, public sector pay etc . It seems we are not all in it together under 2 tier Kier .
 
The commitment was not to raise personal taxes (income tax or NI).

And you've moved from what was actually promised to things that weren't promised. 0f course you don't recall things that didn't happen.
Morning Vic, my recollection is, they initially said they wouldn't raise taxes, they then moved on to saying they wouldn't raise Income tax and NI and then eventually and bizarrely summmed this up by sayjng they wouldn't raise taxes for working people? Which is particularly dubious and I feel deliberately misleading, as all employers are also working people are they not?

They also didn't mention they were moving the inheritance tax goal posts?

Also remember this little phrase?

“All of our plans are fully funded and fully costed and none of them require tax rises over and above the ones that we’ve already announced” that didnt really end up being true did it?

You also need to read what I posted again, which was, forget what they promised, and do something different!

Anyway, I suspect that we are not going to agree on the above, as you dont tend to be critical of anything Labour say or do, which is of course entirely your right.

So I hope you enjoy the cricket or Wimbledon or whatever on this lovely summers day.
 
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Your plan is that we pay more in taxes, reduce welfare provisions, reduce the pension, end public sector pensions, hobble the economy by limiting immigration to an undefined ‘bare minimum’, reduce or remove our healthcare, reduce the State making it unmanageable - which is weird as we voted for a trade strategy that requires a larger more intrusive State - change the work culture (again undefined) but I suspect its work longer for less and make sure our children have a restricted education.

In summary, we pay more in taxes and have less assuming we don’t die first because we can’t get the healthcare. But at least we would be too uneducated to realise we had become little more than worker drones for the State.

We would have course have a strong military although I am unsure why we are defending what would be, other than for the elite few, a bleak and grim existence.

Remember the days when politics sold us the dream of a positive and better future? Now, it’s work harder, work longer and die early. Maybe you can coin a catchy slogan to help sell your vision of Britain like ‘Work Makes You Free’.
Yes , it sounds bleak and grim because the outlook is bleak and grim. Part of the reason we are unable to tackle the issues is because we cannot face that fact . The future can be but only if take our medicine , that is the positive, the same message that Thatcher successfully argued , that there is no alternative. 30 years of Centrism got is here - it’s over Bob.
 
Throwing Labour a bone here, I also think that the predicament we find ourselves in, is as challenging - if not more so - as it has ever been.

We have unsustainable levels of debt already; record high taxes which would likely hinder the economy not help it if raised further; an underperforming and under funded NHS; workers who feel they haven't had adequate pay increases for 10 years, on the brink of strikes; greater demands for defence spending; and immigration system out of control; stubborn inflation and resultingly high interest rates; pitiful/no growth; global headwinds with Presidents of both Russia and the US who are bonkers; a welfare bill that's completely unsustainable; and fewer people of working age, working than not.

It's completely fucked. I don't want to detract from this by getting into a "who's fault is that debate". As a conservative, even I blame to Tories in large part.

But we are where we are and god only knows what we can do to get out of this mess. I confess I am stumped. We can't cut taxes without risking a Truss style collapse; We can't borrow more; We can't raise taxes without spiralling down further, depressing growth even more.

As Sully said a few moments before impact: "Have you got any ideas"?
Its early in the morning but here's a few bleary thoughts .....

The Gas / Oil Industries have both earned huge profits by doing absolutely nothing but business as usual ..... profits generated by circumstances rather than effort ..... so a large windfall tax would be a start.

Tax the tech companies on sales made in the UK. (Facebook. Amazon, Ebay , Vinted etc etc )

Tax the pharmaceutical companies (they benefit from the research grants that are given to Universities ... this money should be recovered once any medication becomes profitable)

Tie doctors and teachers to the UK by agreeing to write off any student loan debt once they have worked in the UK for 15 years.

Wealth Tax on millionaires with holdings of £10,000,000 or more (its reckoned that would raise £22 billion)

Stop the practice of the self employed drawing tax free dividends from their income.

Sort out PIP Benefits (god only knows how)

Increase Stamp duty on properties worth £x million (I know they already pay ,, but an extra !% wouldn't hurt too much )

Raise the minimum wage to reduce the number of people in full time employment claiming welfare. (God knows why I am subsidising Tescos / Asda etc by supporting their employees )

Allow asylum applicants to work ( UK currently has 600,000 job vacancies)

Recover the money stolen by the Covid PPE thieves ...... Mone would be a start.

Begin a rebuilding program but on brown sites or by renovating derelict properties (training people at the same time and removing them from the Welfare cost)

Raise the Council Tax banding above H ..... So that larger more valuable properties contribute more to the local budget. (currently a 20 bedroom mansion worth £15 million pays the same as a 6 bedroom house worth £1.5 million)


Hey ... but what do I know? Waiting for the incoming ........
 
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That wouldn't be good for me either and there would be plenty of grounds for claiming it wasn't fair.
However as you say , we are in one hell of a mess and regardless of who is to blame we need to get out of it ourselves before a solution is imposed on us. If we are all in it together, that includes wealthier pensioners . Would the IMF impose cuts on your pension ? - you know they would.

Means testing the state pension woukd be a disastrous move and not only fir those who currently receive it. Why would anyone but the really weather bother saving into a private pension? We would have an eye watering amount of people on pension credits. Its a really bad and unfair idea.
 
Yes , it sounds bleak and grim because the outlook is bleak and grim. Part of the reason we are unable to tackle the issues is because we cannot face that fact . The future can be but only if take our medicine , that is the positive, the same message that Thatcher successfully argued , that there is no alternative. 30 years of Centrism got is here - it’s over Bob.

Your pitch is that we eat gruel today to avoid eating gruel tomorrow. Either way we are still eating gruel.

Fifteen years ago we were told we needed austerity measures to provide for a better future. Today the argument is - we need austerity measures to provide for a better future.

People bang on about growing the economy yet you want to gut the education sector as per your ‘take the medicine’ plan. Higher Education is worth £275 billion to the UK economy with considerable revenue from overseas students (immigrants). You suggest it is necessary to gut this revenue. For what purpose? It isn’t growth, so what will reducing the University sector achieve? How will this provide for a better future?
 
Its early in the morning but here's a few bleary thoughts .....

The Gas / Oil Industries have both earned huge profits by doing absolutely nothing but business as usual ..... profits generated by circumstances rather than effort ..... so a large windfall tax would be a start.

Tax the tech companies on sales made in the UK. (Facebook. Amazon, Ebay , Vinted etc etc )

Tax the pharmaceutical companies (they benefit from the research grants that are given to Universities ... this money should be recovered once any medication becomes profitable)

Tie doctors and teachers to the UK by agreeing to write off any student loan debt once they have worked in the UK for 15 years.

Wealth Tax on millionaires with holdings of £10,000,000 or more (its reckoned that would raise £22 billion)

Stop the practice of the self employed drawing tax free dividends from their income.

Sort out PIP Benefits (god only knows how)

Increase Stamp duty on properties worth £x million (I know they already pay ,, but an extra !% wouldn't hurt too much )

Raise the minimum wage to reduce the number of people in full time employment claiming welfare. (God knows why I am subsidising Tescos / Asda etc by supporting their employees )

Allow asylum applicants to work ( UK currently has 600,000 job vacancies)

Recover the money stolen by the Covid PPE thieves ...... Mone would be a start.

Begin a rebuilding program but on brown sites or by renovating derelict properties (training people at the same time and removing them from the Welfare cost)

Raise the Council Tax banding above H ..... So that larger more valuable properties contribute more to the local budget. (currently a 20 bedroom mansion worth £15 million pays the same as a 6 bedroom house worth £1.5 million)


Hey ... but what do I know? Waiting for the incoming ........
Some good points in there
 
Means testing the state pension woukd be a disastrous move and not only fir those who currently receive it. Why would anyone but the really weather bother saving into a private pension? We would have an eye watering amount of people on pension credits. Its a really bad and unfair idea.
It is bad and unfair I agree, though I am only referring to means testing at the top end of the scale, certainly nowhere near pushing people into pension credit.
 
Yes , it sounds bleak and grim because the outlook is bleak and grim. Part of the reason we are unable to tackle the issues is because we cannot face that fact . The future can be but only if take our medicine , that is the positive, the same message that Thatcher successfully argued , that there is no alternative. 30 years of Centrism got is here - it’s over Bob.

This made me smile.

Yes , it sounds bleak and grim because the outlook is bleak and grim. Part of the reason we are unable to tackle the issues is because we cannot face that fact.

Facts eh?

Thatcher successfully argued , that there is no alternative. 30 years of Centrism got is here - it’s over Bob.

Is this one of them alternative facts?

30 years of Centrism got is here

More like opinions masquerading as facts to me.
 
Morning Vic, my recollection is, they initially said they wouldn't raise taxes, they then moved on to saying they wouldn't raise Income tax and NI and then eventually and bizarrely summmed this up by sayjng they wouldn't raise taxes for working people? Which is particularly dubious and I feel deliberately misleading, as all employers are also working people are they not?

They also didn't mention they were moving the inheritance tax goal posts?

Also remember this little phrase?

“All of our plans are fully funded and fully costed and none of them require tax rises over and above the ones that we’ve already announced” that didnt really end up being true did it?

You also need to read what I posted again, which was, forget what they promised, and do something different!

Anyway, I suspect that we are not going to agree on the above, as you dont tend to be critical of anything Labour say or do, which is of course entirely your right.

So I hope you enjoy the cricket or Wimbledon or whatever on this lovely summers day.
The phrase "we have a fully costed manifesto" springs to mind.

We heard it countless times, day after day.
 
Talks between Health Secretary Wes Streeting and the British Medical Association (BMA) will take place next week in a bid to avert strike action in England's NHS.

- Tories didn’t do this for months and months, allowed some of our best doctors to leave the health sector and we had constant strikes despite them asking for a far more justified payrise than this one.
 
Talks between Health Secretary Wes Streeting and the British Medical Association (BMA) will take place next week in a bid to avert strike action in England's NHS.

- Tories didn’t do this for months and months, allowed some of our best doctors to leave the health sector and we had constant strikes despite them asking for a far more justified payrise than this one.
But...... didn't the Department for Health say at the start of last week when the strikes were announced that he "would not enter into negotiations with the BMA"?

...btw I am glad to see there are negotiations set to commence.

... from Sky News

"Unfortunately, the government has stated that it will not negotiate on pay, wanting to focus on non-pay elements without suggesting what these might be," the BMA said.

A Downing Street spokesman said: "We aren't going to reopen negotiations on pay

 
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But...... didn't the Department for Health say at the start of last week when the strikes were announced that he "would not enter into negotiations with the BMA"?

...btw I am glad to see there are negotiations set to commence.

well this says talks rather than negotiations, either way it’s important we try and sit round table to avert strikes - something the Tories refused to do costing the economy billions.
 
Morning Vic, my recollection is, they initially said they wouldn't raise taxes, they then moved on to saying they wouldn't raise Income tax and NI and then eventually and bizarrely summmed this up by sayjng they wouldn't raise taxes for working people? Which is particularly dubious and I feel deliberately misleading, as all employers are also working people are they not?

They also didn't mention they were moving the inheritance tax goal posts?

Also remember this little phrase?

“All of our plans are fully funded and fully costed and none of them require tax rises over and above the ones that we’ve already announced” that didnt really end up being true did it?

You also need to read what I posted again, which was, forget what they promised, and do something different!

Anyway, I suspect that we are not going to agree on the above, as you dont tend to be critical of anything Labour say or do, which is of course entirely your right.

So I hope you enjoy the cricket or Wimbledon or whatever on this lovely summers day.
So no promises actually broken then?

A bit like Thatcher denying the Tories wouldn't double VAT and only putting it up from 8% to 15%...

And I don't think Tesco / Starbucks / Thames Water are "working people".
 
Talks between Health Secretary Wes Streeting and the British Medical Association (BMA) will take place next week in a bid to avert strike action in England's NHS.

- Tories didn’t do this for months and months, allowed some of our best doctors to leave the health sector and we had constant strikes despite them asking for a far more justified payrise than this one.
Interesting listening to the BMA Union rep on 5L the other morning. I was expecting the usual ‘We need immediate reparation for the last 15 years’ but got more than anybody bargained for, especially Nicky Campbell. It started off well but as Campbell pushed on the ‘You’ve already been given nearly 30%, do you think you’ve lost the confidence of the people?’, the rep lost it a bit and instead of talking about the pay rise, hit into politics, telling the viewer that the government had to change tac and start taxing anybody with wealth, be it individuals or corporations, and also those sat in the middle. There were other political points but these main points were, apparently, the BMAs stance.

Now, doesn’t sound much, and I tend to agree that those with a bit extra can give more, but it shows that the BMA aren’t just after money, they now want to force governments into setting policy, in order to give themselves the ‘justice’ that they think they deserve.

Is this why they had such a low return on votes, and why some doctors are resigning from the BMA?
 
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