The Labour Government

At 16 you are able to work and pay taxes though.
.... and so it always has been. Do you really believe children are capable of making an informed decision? maybe they are or maybe they'll sheepishly follow their parents way (instruction)... who knows?

Perhaps we should also consider taking the vote away from people one they reach retirement age (there was a time Labour might have supported this... not any more)
 
At 16 you are able to work and pay taxes though.
Minimum wage for 16-17 year olds is £7.55 per hour. Maximum they can legally work is 40 hours a week (but NO retailer in this economy is giving them 40 hours a week ahead of senior staff members! They get 28 at best.) You're basing it on Living Wage figures, they don't get that, not usually. Most businesses only take on 18+.

So although it's technically 'possible' to earn enough, it is by no means the regular situation and most are on this low minimum wage and taking home around £8-9000 a year which is way below the tax threshold. It's a myth that 16 year olds are all collectively contributing tax. It's not 2004 anymore. If you can find a 16 year old doing 40 hours (paid full breaks, mind!) and earning £14k a year, i'd like to see those figures and the company offering it.
 
If David Lammy is allowed to be Foreign Secretary, then I think there’s a case for 12 year olds to be allowed to vote.

It’s no more a preposterous a concept than Lammy or Reeves being in their current positions.
In fairness that is a point that cannot be argued against
 
.... and so it always has been. Do you really believe children are capable of making an informed decision? maybe they are or maybe they'll sheepishly follow their parents way (instruction)... who knows?

Perhaps we should also consider taking the vote away from people one they reach retirement age (there was a time Labour might have supported this... not any more)

Many people already vote for a party as a result of either their upbringing or as a push back against that upbringing. Lots of evidence that younger voters are at least as informed as older. As for undue influence on this countries voters I honestly think people's parents exerting pressure is the least of our problems in the age we live in.

Notwithstanding it's merits or otherwise I do however think there's a decent chance it'll backfire on Labour at the ballot box and their political radar is sufficiently off they could let that happen.
 
If choice A is shit and choice B is shit it doesn't automatically make sense to vote for Choice C simply because it's not A or B. I keep asking a question and no one answers me, what is it that Reform are going to do that would make things better and what gives you the confidence based on evidence to date that they would be able to do a good job?

You could equally ask, why do I think they can't do a good job? In which case I would point out that historically right-wing populist governments almost never ever deliver sustainable improvements for ordinary people. I'd also point out that some of the types of policies Reform have indicated they'd pursue will probably result in worse services for more money, for example if you think our healthcare model is inefficient per £ then go and have a look at the US one. I'd point out that the free market, low tax model Farage has always aligned himself with, has shown itself over decades to favour the rich rather than ordinary people. At which point I'd also note that Farage is a multi millionaire who hangs round with billionaires and despite his photo ops in pubs has no idea whatsoever about ordinary peoples lives. I'd point out that whilst going in hard on immigration might (in about a dozen areas of the country) provide some short term relief on housing and services pressures, pretty much every economic model out there suggests it will actually cause bigger problems than it solves. I'd point out that at least one Reform council leader is asking the government to loosen it's visa restrictions because she's realised the complexity of the issue. I'd point out that Farage personally has a long track record of using public office to enrich himself whilst doing as little as possible as part of that public service. I'd point out during Brexit he applied for and got a German passport so that any impacts other people felt, he could swerve. I'd point out the problems that exist already in the Reform controlled councils that suggest despite repeated promises over the years to built a functional political party, Farage is either unwilling or incapable of doing so. And so on.

As far as I can tell the one thing Reform has got going for it is a commitment to PR but then you can get that from other parties.

From what I can see voting Reform only makes obvious some sense if you are either a multi-millionaire or a racist or for some reason you actively want to live in a poundshop version of Trump's America. I don't believe the majority of Reform voters are those things, I think they are mostly ordinary understandably pissed off working class people. Assuming you don't fit into the three categories above, please tell what is it you expect to see happen that will improve your life? Why does it make sense ? Because I just can't see it. I can only see (very understandably) pissed off people jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire and to me that doesn't make sense at all.

So if option A B and C are shit and ordinary working class people are rightfully pissed off what do you suggest they do?
 
Labour has lost the working class vote, so they're adding another voting pool to secure 'powah' at the next election.

Oh are they going to be in for a shock when they discover who actually is popular amongst the 16-17 demographic... Hint: don't go off what the YouGov and similar polls say, see who is popular on TikTok and social media. Keep Farage and Reform out, Starmer? You just handed it to them on a silver platter.
 
Unemployment up , Inflation up, Growth down - it wasn’t supposed to be like this was it ?
“ Adults in the room” my arse, they have behaved in words and actions like 6th form students , frankly it’s been pathetic.
As for unemployment- we still have Rayner’s employment bill to come - or Unemployment bill as it will turn out to be .

Unemployment up , Inflation up, Growth down

So basically the main thing they got voted in on 'it's the economy stupid' they have managed to do the opposite on each of the three indicators.

Don't tell her though the bottom lip may go again.
 
Minimum wage for 16-17 year olds is £7.55 per hour. Maximum they can legally work is 40 hours a week (but NO retailer in this economy is giving them 40 hours a week ahead of senior staff members! They get 28 at best.) You're basing it on Living Wage figures, they don't get that, not usually. Most businesses only take on 18+.

So although it's technically 'possible' to earn enough, it is by no means the regular situation and most are on this low minimum wage and taking home around £8-9000 a year which is way below the tax threshold. It's a myth that 16 year olds are all collectively contributing tax. It's not 2004 anymore. If you can find a 16 year old doing 40 hours (paid full breaks, mind!) and earning £14k a year, i'd like to see those figures and the company offering it.

You can join the army at 16, and salaries are above £14k.

The average full time earnings in 2024 (so they'll have gone up since), for 16/17 year olds was £331 per week, which is over £17k a year. As you say many will be well below that level, so clearly, to bring the average up, there are plenty of 16/17 year olds earning well above that figure.

Even if you're restricting yourself to 16 year olds, it would take a huge jump from 16 to 17 for those averages to not include plenty of 16 year olds.
 
You can join the army at 16, and salaries are above £14k.

The average full time earnings in 2024 (so they'll have gone up since), for 16/17 year olds was £331 per week, which is over £17k a year. As you say many will be well below that level, so clearly, to bring the average up, there are plenty of 16/17 year olds earning well above that figure.

Even if you're restricting yourself to 16 year olds, it would take a huge jump from 16 to 17 for those averages to not include plenty of 16 year olds.
Most 16 year olds aren't joining the Army though. Nor are they getting the Living Wage from employers.

The reality is they aren't getting 40 hours, full paid breaks, they aren't getting the Living Wage and they aren't getting 5 shifts a week. It strains credulity to suggest that a few thousand examples where some meet this criteria is enough to justify giving the blanket vote to all 16-17 year olds, who will likely vote for Reform, given their popularity right now amongst that demographic.
 
Unemployment up , Inflation up, Growth down

So basically the main thing they got voted in on 'it's the economy stupid' they have managed to do the opposite on each of the three indicators.

Don't tell her though the bottom lip may go again.
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So if option A B and C are shit and ordinary working class people are rightfully pissed off what do you suggest they do?

Fair question. I could say, first recognise that even though Reform gets much more media coverage, remember that there are other parties out there who are not Labour or the Tories and present an alternative too. But the reality is they'd have to spend much more time seeking that information out in a way they don't have to for Reform.

So my honest answer is that it isn't on ordinary working class people to do anything. It's on the likes of the alternatives such as the Greens to try and find a way to cut through. I know that sounds pie in the sky but if you think about where politics is being played out these days it's frequently online and Reform are beating the shit out of the other parties. Someone like Gary Stevenson has an online presence every politician apart from Farage can only dream of having. He voted Green last election but has just this week basically held out the offer to Labour to work with him. I don't think he thinks they're going to take it up, or at least not whilst Starter and the current policy direction exists. He's discounted the Greens because of our FPTP system but if I was Zack Polanski and I won in September I'd be camping on his doorstep to try and get somenform of collaboration going. It's not much I admit but it's a crumb of hope.

My other honest answer would if we do see some evidence of a change of approach/likely outcomes from Labour between now and the election to let that play out rather than shoot yourself in the face.

(and if I really had the answer I probably wouldn't be blathering away on here).
 
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