"The Sancho Narrative" vs patience

Barcon said:
I think all three of them made the right decision.
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+1

Zinchenko & Foden had a great game last night, to see Phil scoring in the CL shows his class, admittedly he lost a few balls, but for a lad of 18 yo he's showing a lot of promise.

In a squad with Sergio, Raheem and Jesus, top end internationals, its always going to be hard finding a slot in the first team.

Not sure that Sancho would have found a place, & if he's not happy coming on to play half a game, then understandably he's going to take his chance somewhere else. NP with that, but realistically Foden & Zinchenko are first team players when we have such a heavy schedule and rotation style.

Not everyone is happy with rotation, I guess Sancho wanted to play differently.

Pep is building a first team, and a first team to take over from them. Obv Foden & Zinchenko are part of that, & that would have been very much part of discussions in the back rooms.

Whereas we have 2 great players who were happy with that, 1 wasn't so happy - but City have the option of his return should he ever be in the position :)

S'all good
 
Centurions said:
What about about when 3 different teams bring it up during the same match? You really can't see an agenda being put in place?
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"People covering game bring up obvious talking point of game"

They probably all talked about us scoring 7 goals too, who do you think is the puppet master who set up that narrative?
 
Thaksinssoldier said:
Indeed, and I can get behind him having the backbone to go there, rather than sign for a Newcastle for example, so I'm not looking to bash the lad.

BUT... the media have all acted like he made a move Foden should have and therefore by extension Zinchenko should have. But right now, today(so rule out the future of possible transfers etc), no one can surely say he made a better play than they did, considering both have featured in the CL, Zinchenko's rise to first team key player right now and Foden scoring in the last 16 with a quarter of the game time Sancho had and he didn't make any impact whatsoever.

In a year, Sancho could be at Real and we're back to "what a great move" but today, he's out of the CL and failed to help prevent that and our pair's stock has really risen.
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Frankly who gives a fuck what the media think
 
mosssideblue said:
Are OK, you know that for sure - sorry
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Well if you took time to read the posts and the discussion, you'd see many feel that.

Brahim would have been sat there seeing Sancho getting plaudits and thinking "I'll try that too". Now he's probably going to be given a handful of games and loaned out by Summer, so likely not a good move, influenced by talking heads and agents etc saying "look at Sancho".
 
Thaksinssoldier said:
Well if you took time to read the posts and the discussion, you'd see many feel that.

Brahim would have been sat there seeing Sancho getting plaudits and thinking "I'll try that too". Now he's probably going to be given a handful of games and loaned out by Summer, so likely not a good move, influenced by talking heads and agents etc saying "look at Sancho".
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Some just like to get their knickers wet about what the press think and write. Foden is obviously very happy being with us, so what is the issue - serious Q
 
Thaksinssoldier said:
Ok I wanted to make this separate from any thread on Jadon himself as this isn't about his performance, but more about the media and their portrayal of his move and it's supposed benefits vs what Phil and Zinchenko chose to do.

To re-cap;

Sancho leaves for first team opportunity as he doesn't believe he'll get it at City. Fine, his prerogative. He's done okay, gotten some games, made some impact and is now an England international.

Foden is the closest comparion as he's English and was in the same team. His loyalty to his boyhood club probably blinded him a little and he decided to bed in, sign a new contract, not get much game time but has seen the field a decent amount for a kid his age.

Zinchenko, similar age, being used as a utility player, bides his time and then gets told he's off to a very good Wolves team. He turns it down and the consensus is he's mad. Sits down, waits, waits some more...Mendy injured and Delph collapses and he gets his shot.

So with a little hindsight now the CL knockouts have started, we've won a league cup and are in the hunt for 3 trophies.

Foden has stood out in his cameos and has 6 goals I believe? Some in the cups and one in the CL knockouts from a 30 min spell.

Zinchenko was pivotal in beating Chelsea in cup and has secured the left back spot in one of the toughest teams in football to break into.

Sancho had zero impact in the Dortmund games vs Spurs and was largely a passenger, which is naturally expected for a kid his age on such a stage.

So...why are we all being fed a narrative players of this age need to leave? I'd argue of the 3 mentioned Sancho is actually doing the worst and just getting more games and having flashes shouldn't undermine the growth we are seeing in Foden and Zinhcliffe and they are actually developing better because of their patience and willingness to bide their time under a great coach. I haven't even added Brahim in, but at such an early stage he's done nothing since moving.

So I ask all, your thoughts on who's made the better moves here and can anyone actually state a case at this point that it is Sancho?
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A couple of months ago when Dortmund and Sancho were riding high, it never crossed anyone's mind that maybe Sancho was flying because the Bundesliga was sub-standard.

The bar is higher at City. A much higher training effect. On the one hand he's getting games at 1st class level but at City the standard is higher. Ultimately I think he turned his back on that too quickly.
 
Sancho has done well for himself, you can't say it wasnt a good move but who knows what chances he might have got had he stayed. We all know how highly rated him, foden and diaz have been for ages now so it's no huge surprise what hes doing in germany it's just got him noticed by the majority quicker. With the make up of our squad, just from sheer numbers you could even say that had Sancho stayed, he would have been further in line for game time purely down to a lack of wingers than Foden. Foden is currently 5th choice in a two man position, Sancho would have been 4th pre mahrez signing. Wouldn't have got as much time as he has at Dortmund but he would be in a better squad and with a better coach.

On the other side, foden is progressing very well, its clear hes learning every day in training and whilst it may take a few years for him to become an established regular here, being at the club certainly isnt holding him back. could he be even better if he was playing at a lesser team every week? Perhaps, but perhaps not and then he misses out on learning from pep, the rest of his staff and players like david silva who isnt going to be around forever. Every decision is a gamble, some will work, some wont, every player and every situation is different but we cant ever say one way is better than the other because we don't live in a world where both scenarios can be played out.

The idea that the best thing to do is leave for first team football just because it's gone well for one person is ridiculous, there's no saying whether it could have gone equally as well or better staying here and there's no saying it will work for everyone, fodens just scored in the last 16 of the champions league and has the potential to make a quarter final appearance sancho didn't score and he has zero chance of playing in the competitons again this season so he's not exactly having a bad time of it is he?

Sancho and Foden both took complete opposite approaches yet its worked out fairly well so far for both which says everything.
 
Thaksinssoldier said:
Ok I wanted to make this separate from any thread on Jadon himself as this isn't about his performance, but more about the media and their portrayal of his move and it's supposed benefits vs what Phil and Zinchenko chose to do.

To re-cap;

Sancho leaves for first team opportunity as he doesn't believe he'll get it at City. Fine, his prerogative. He's done okay, gotten some games, made some impact and is now an England international.

Foden is the closest comparion as he's English and was in the same team. His loyalty to his boyhood club probably blinded him a little and he decided to bed in, sign a new contract, not get much game time but has seen the field a decent amount for a kid his age.

Zinchenko, similar age, being used as a utility player, bides his time and then gets told he's off to a very good Wolves team. He turns it down and the consensus is he's mad. Sits down, waits, waits some more...Mendy injured and Delph collapses and he gets his shot.

So with a little hindsight now the CL knockouts have started, we've won a league cup and are in the hunt for 3 trophies.

Foden has stood out in his cameos and has 6 goals I believe? Some in the cups and one in the CL knockouts from a 30 min spell.

Zinchenko was pivotal in beating Chelsea in cup and has secured the left back spot in one of the toughest teams in football to break into.

Sancho had zero impact in the Dortmund games vs Spurs and was largely a passenger, which is naturally expected for a kid his age on such a stage.

So...why are we all being fed a narrative players of this age need to leave? I'd argue of the 3 mentioned Sancho is actually doing the worst and just getting more games and having flashes shouldn't undermine the growth we are seeing in Foden and Zinhcliffe and they are actually developing better because of their patience and willingness to bide their time under a great coach. I haven't even added Brahim in, but at such an early stage he's done nothing since moving.

So I ask all, your thoughts on who's made the better moves here and can anyone actually state a case at this point that it is Sancho?
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Stopped reading when you said Sancho’s done okay and played some games.

He’s had a great season and cemented his first team position months ago.
 
domalino said:
It's not a giant conspiracy.

Just like when Leroy plays amazingly people say they can't beleive he's not starting every game, people look at Foden making a fool out of defenders in a CL knockout game and think "How is this kid not been able to start a league game yet?"

People see a young player do amazinly, they want to see them play more. England have not had a good #10 of Foden's style for 15 years. It is obvious that every fan of England - which is the position Lineker is taking when he talks about Foden usually - wants him to progress as quickly and as well as possible.

Christ, even Guardiola says he feels guilty because he doesn't play more, why is it a conspiracy when another person says the same?
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I dont believe in conspiracies tbh. I do believe the editor of such programs have an "angle" to exploit, wether that be City or anyone, but it was clear last nights show and what the directive was.... Expose Foden as not having enough time on the pitch.

What the emotions are behind those decisions are I dont really care but it was obviously one of the things they wanted to exploit even asking Phil himself. It's gutter press shit which used to be a separate entity, nowadays it's standard.
 
Didn't Sancho go on strike to force the move? He didn't turn up for pre-season training and refused to come back to City. We offered him a decent new contract but as he moved abroad Dortmund didn't have to pay the full fee - it was the development fee and so he got a bigger contract. His agent then put out the narrative that he was moving to play first team football whereas an equal true narragtive could be that he moved for more money.

I'm not 100% sure of the above so please correct me if I'm wrong.
 
FrankSwift1 said:
Didn't Sancho go on strike to force the move? He didn't turn up for pre-season training and refused to come back to City. We offered him a decent new contract but as he moved abroad Dortmund didn't have to pay the full fee - it was the development fee and so he got a bigger contract. His agent then put out the narrative that he was moving to play first team football whereas an equal true narragtive could be that he moved for more money.

I'm not 100% sure of the above so please correct me if I'm wrong.
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It’s not exactly true. He wouldn’t sign a new contract so City refused to take him on the summer tour to the US. There are then differing reports saying he either refused to train or the club told him to stay at home whilst they sorted a transfer out for him. And I very much doubt he was originally on more than £30k a week at Dortmund, which is what we offered him.
 
SNOOZE ALERT

I think there's a reasonable amount of discussion stemming from a huge fear of loss on the most part.

Everyone recognises what a talent Foden is. It looks like if he develops into even half the player people hope he will be he'll end up as a top class midfielder. This season especially, he's shown glimpses at a senior level that there's an absolute gem in there.


So for starters, City fans are desperate for him to succeed. Imagine being a City fan, and having had the last 10 years being told that you support a club with no history, no soul, that's buying it's way to success constantly, that's bad for football. Even if you're above of it all, it's going to wear you down eventually. Then all of a sudden comes along this guy Foden. Now, not only is he an unbelievable talent, but he's from our academy. But not only is he from our academy, but he plays the precise way that the club have envisioned for it's philosophy. But no only does he play the way the club wants, he's also a local lad. But not only is he a local lad, he's also a blue.

All these things (and more) in one player alone gives City fans all the ammo necessary to shut a lot of people up. And even if not, it gives them the peace of mind to know that the disapproving majority of non-City fans are wrong. It gives this whole project from ADUG a new sense of meaning and value that wasn't even conceivable beforehand; I imagine it's the closest equivalent football has to having a baby. It gives the club and the fans a possible poster-boy for generations to come. Basically, for a lot of people, there's a LOT riding on Foden becoming a big success, because who knows when the next player of that sort will come along.

And with that, comes the fear he won't make it because of reasons beyond his control. There's a fear that a legitimately brilliant talent is being held back by not getting enough games, or minutes, or this or that. It's a fact that he'd be better with more minutes under his belt so whenever he's not getting the maximum possible people are going to be upset. People are scared that he'll end up being wasted. And unfortunately, because he's the first of his kind since 2008, we don't really know how this is going to go. There are no precedents to give us any clue. Because we've never seen another player at City like Foden develop into a top talent with whatever the regiment is that he's on, we can only say the absolute truths, that are the more he plays the better he'll be, so let's get that out of the way ASAP.


For England fans, it's similar albeit in a different context. Right now the England midfield is dire (and Henderson :p). We've got a whole horde of fullbacks, a bunch of potentially really good centre backs, Kane, Sterling and Rashford, and then our sad excuse for a midfield. And considering how midfield is such an important part of football, not having a good one stings. And then all of a sudden comes along this possibly once in a generation English midfielder in Foden. He plays with that Spanish style that so loved, with a certain English grit and technicality to boot. The future's bright.

Exceeeeept, he plays for City. That team, that they as non-City fans, have essentially been brainwashed into believing are bad for football. That don't care about youth and whatnot. Just like City fans, they're desperate for him to succeed, but they've all been trained to believe that City is the worst place to do it. If he were at a weaker club, we know he'd play. If he were at United or Liverpool or Tottenham (ie the media favourites), then of course he'd play, as they're paragons of virtue in football. To make matters worse for this narrative, another City youth player (Sancho) has gone off to get games at one of these 'weaker' sides and ended up getting loads of games and looking like he'll turn out to be a real success. So that's their yardstick and they're sticking with to it. Declan Rice's new found fame probably won't help the cause either.

Just like City fans, these England fans are desperate for Foden to succeed and massively fear what will happen if he doesn't. Because despite what they might say there really aren't many alternatives to Foden as of immediate. And like City fans, they have no idea as to whether the program Foden's on is going to work, so they can only want what they know will work and that's him getting gametime. I imagine the sentiment is very similar with Hudson-Odoi at Chelsea, another less than loved club.

Of course there are people that are just looking for some excuse to be derogatory about City, but you just have to see through them. And unfortunately until Foden develops fully this will be an easy stick to beat the club with.


Personally I'm not worried about Foden. I think he's being managed well and by how he's developing I have no fear that he'll turn out to be great eventually. I'm in no rush; Sterling took until he was 23 to truly blossom (looking likely to be similar for Sané and Jesus too) so I know he's got a long way yet.


tl;dr Foden's fine, but the narrative about him having to need more to develop, especially through leaving, is reasonable albeit a tiny bit hysterical and unbalanced for my liking. And it's something the club will always be criticised for so we may as well deal with it, like we've doing so well with all the other shit being thrown our way.
 
Cobra said:
It’s not exactly true. He wouldn’t sign a new contract so City refused to take him on the summer tour to the US. There are then differing reports saying he either refused to train or the club told him to stay at home whilst they sorted a transfer out for him. And I very much doubt he was originally on more than £30k a week at Dortmund, which is what we offered him.
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Pretty much spot on, I think Dortmund paid £7 million for him too which is more than the development fee would have been.
 
Dave Ewing's Back 'eader said:
It's not just footballing kids, it can be applied to a lot of groups - they want everything yesterday. If you are good enough then your time will come.
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After the total demolition of German teams in champions league games, maybe Sancho's not such a wonderful kid after all. He was completely useless against spurs, alot of hype playing in a second rate league.
 
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