The Scottish Politics thread

[blueparrot]

If they had ignored it there would have been huge trouble and quite rightly, everyone knew the rules beforehand and my 40% point was that a significant amount in Scotland did still want it and across the whole union enough did. Wales also voted leave. You can argue the previous government shouldn’t have called the vote but they did and once they did I didn’t hear much about the way it was going to be done, not until the result came in after.

Id give Scotland another vote tomorrow but caveat it with the SNP fucking off and a bit of quiet if you vote no again. I think that would be pretty fair.

The government could have taken into account theopposition to brexit of almost half the population. and half of the Union. They could have worked out a deal that accomodated those views and didn't damage the union. Instead they decided on self preservation and pandering to the ERG.
So if Scotland and even N. Ireland do decide to leave the union the blame won't be the SNP it won't be because Scots don't like the English it will almost entirely be down to English Conservative and Unionist MP s putting self interest ahead of the Union and its parts and the best interests of the UK .

 

[Metal Biker]

Ok. Fight for it you say?

Total	615	640	625	630	635	650	651	659	646	650	650	650	650	650
Country	1922	1945	1950	1955	1974	1983	1992	1997	2005	2010	2015	2017	2019	Next
England	492	517	506	511	516	523	524	529	529	533	533	533	533	543
Wales	36	36	36	36	36	38	38	40	40	40	40	40	40	32
Scotland	74	74	71	71	71	72	72	72	59	59	59	59	59	57
Northern Ireland	13	13	12	12	12	17	17	18	18	18	18	18	18	18

English Mp's 543
Rest of the Union 108

Its a little unequal fight wouldn't you say? The facts are it matters little in the scheme of things what the Scots vote for at a Westminster level, after all we did used to vote primarily Labour and still ended up with Tory governments. The facts are that the populations of England and Scotland have, in general, different political objectives. Hence the push to rid ourselves of Westminster governance. Its not just the present government either, remember Thatcher?
Anyway, at least your back to debating real stuff rather than we scots hate the english nonsense!

I've still not changed my view that scots nats 'dislike' the English, but clearly it upsets people whenever I point that out.

England's population is ten times that of Scotland, so of course there are more representatives from England otheerwise we would be wholly unrepresented, HOWEVER, the idea was that England, Scotland, Wales were regions of Great Britain, not separate countries, witht he base of democracy at Westminster in London. We aren't meant to think of it as "England has 543 MP's" but "The UK has 650 MP's."

The moment Blair gave devolved powers to Scotland, scots nats decided Scotland was now a country, with separate issues from that of the "Rest of the UK"... but there was no "rest of UK", there was just the UK, or at least that was how we were all meant to believe. Now we see the union as 4 nations rather than 2, Great Britain as 3 nations rather than 1, so undoubtedly there will be some who feel that there's an us vs them attitude. Voting SNP in one region when the others cannot will naturally lead others into thinking that their interests are not being addressed or getting the Government they want...because you think Scotland is a separate country that needs to govern itself.

"England and Scotland have different political objectives", do we? England is a pretty big place with a much larger population. There are more people living in the North West than in the whole of Scotland. We do not share the same objectives as those in the South East, South West etc, either. Because, again, sscots nats see England like they do Scotland; one country, not several regions of one country that makes up part of Great Britain. Labour were in power for 13 years precisely because those regions voted and shared the same objectives as those in Scotland, that made the southern voting Tories powerless. Scotland has changed, we haven't.

 

[Citizen of Legoland]

Which means that in this Union, whatever England wants it gets...
Leave the EU?
Yes sir, how fast?
Thats the problem.

That's how Unions work though. I'm sure each area of the country has its own wishes that often get ignored but if you just take your ball home every time the majority do something you don't agree with then you'd end up with an ever dividing country. For instance Scotland might decide to leave the Union because it disagrees with the power of those in the south but then the Outer Hebrides, Shetlands and Orkneys may have the same view that the power in Scotland is weighted to the south of the new independent country and so on.

I still think there is nowhere near enough support to make a break yet, you really need a good 60:40 split for a period of time and I'm not seeing that just yet. Leaving on 55:45 or closer is just as daft as leaving (something less important) on 52:48.

 

[blueparrot]

That's how Unions work though. I'm sure each area of the country has its own wishes that often get ignored but if you just take your ball home every time the majority do something you don't agree with then you'd end up with an ever dividing country. For instance Scotland might decide to leave the Union because it disagrees with the power of those in the south but then the Outer Hebrides, Shetlands and Orkneys may have the same view that the power in Scotland is weighted to the south of the new independent country and so on.

I still think there is nowhere near enough support to make a break yet, you really need a good 60:40 split for a period of time and I'm not seeing that just yet. Leaving on 55:45 or closer is just as daft as leaving (something less important) on 52:48.

It isn't how all unions work, Some can and do give smaller members of a union vetos over some issues.

 

[Citizen of Legoland]

It isn't how all unions work, Some can and do give smaller members of a union vetos over some issues.

Okay, generally how they work.

 

[Saddleworth2]

HOWEVER, the idea was that England, Scotland, Wales were regions of Great Britain, not separate countries, witht he base of democracy at Westminster in London. We aren't meant to think of it as "England has 548 MP's" but "The UK has 650 MP's."

Who’s idea? Yours?
that is part of the problem. They will always be countries with long and proud histories that decided to work together under a Union banner for the good of all. When one country decides it doesn’t want to operate under that Union by the democratic will of its people then that is that. England is not a bloody region of the U.K. and neither is Scotland. Both countries have more history outside the Union than in it.

I think we almost agreed on some of the changes that would make the Union work but that is never going to happen whilst Westminster operates the way it does.
the last straw was voting no at the last referendum as ‘the only way to retain EU membership’ and then........

 

[Saddleworth2]

That's how Unions work though. I'm sure each area of the country has its own wishes that often get ignored but if you just take your ball home every time the majority do something you don't agree with then you'd end up with an ever dividing country. For instance Scotland might decide to leave the Union because it disagrees with the power of those in the south but then the Outer Hebrides, Shetlands and Orkneys may have the same view that the power in Scotland is weighted to the south of the new independent country and so on.

I still think there is nowhere near enough support to make a break yet, you really need a good 60:40 split for a period of time and I'm not seeing that just yet. Leaving on 55:45 or closer is just as daft as leaving (something less important) on 52:48.

Is a totally valid opinion. There are some things which are so fundamental though like EU membership that they really define the success or failure of a Union.

 

[Metal Biker]

Who’s idea? Yours?
that is part of the problem. They will always be countries with long and proud histories that decided to work together under a Union banner for the good of all. When one country decides it doesn’t want to operate under that Union by the democratic will of its people then that is that. England is not a bloody region of the U.K. and neither is Scotland. Both countries have more history outside the Union than in it.

I think we almost agreed on some of the changes that would make the Union work but that is never going to happen whilst Westminster operates the way it does.
the last straw was voting no at the last referendum as ‘the only way to retain EU membership’ and then........

Exactly, which is why I said that it is SCOTLAND that has changed it's political objectives, not England or the rest of the union. You're *meaning scots nats* complaining that we aren't following your direction, when there is meant to be a collective direction. Scots nats have wanted to separate long before the EU referendum; they've been bleating about it for decades and really ramped up in 2012, finally getting their vote on the issue two years later.

I feel for Scots who are sick of this nonsense, or labelled "not true Scotsmen" for daring to defend and support the continuation of the union. And I say this as a person who agrees that the union is now defunct, as a proud Englishman (i'm allowed to say that, right?) its clear that both nations now have a sense of independent identity and that the term "British" is now archaic.

In the EU ref, we voted as ONE nation, not 4 members of a union. Had the situation been reversed, had the majority of Scots voted to leave, but England voted to stay, would you be annoyed that Scotland were being prevented from leaving because England said no? Would you now be championing that Scotland become independent so it could leave the UK union AND EU, before making its own decision to rejoin because Scotland should be the one to make that decision? Somehow I don't think you would be.

 

[Octavian]

The government could have taken into account theopposition to brexit of almost half the population. and half of the Union. They could have worked out a deal that accomodated those views and didn't damage the union. Instead they decided on self preservation and pandering to the ERG.
So if Scotland and even N. Ireland do decide to leave the union the blame won't be the SNP it won't be because Scots don't like the English it will almost entirely be down to English Conservative and Unionist MP s putting self interest ahead of the Union and its parts and the best interests of the UK .

All very well and good and I do agree on what they should have done but the SNP were very strong and the biggest party in Scotland before Brexit and they’d still be there if Brexit hadn’t happened. Theyll still be there if the Tories are voted out too.

 

[blueparrot]

I feel for Scots who are sick of this nonsense, or labelled "not true Scotsmen" for daring to defend and support the continuation of the union.

Don't think that happens, not much anyway. You do realise if Scotland votes to leave the UK it will be because a lot of non Scots living in Scotland have also voted for it. Including a fair few English people. It isn't just Scot against English or anyone else for that matter. Just people living in Scotland that believe they would be better off under an independant government, simple as that.