The Scottish Politics thread

[Saddleworth2]

I sometimes wonder if there is simply a resigned acceptance now among Westminster politicians, particularly Conservatives, that Scotland is going to become Independent, so there is little point in changing the situation. I listened to Brown this morning repeat his 2014 pleas, yet nothing has been done to improve the relationship since then, despite the pledges, and indeed Brexit has only exacerbated matters. 'Two roads diverged in a wood...'

Very pertinent line:

Two roads diverged in a yellow wood,
And sorry I could not travel both
And be one traveler, long I stood
And looked down one as far as I could
To where it bent in the undergrowth;

Then took the other, as just as fair,
And having perhaps the better claim,
Because it was grassy and wanted wear;
Though as for that the passing there
Had worn them really about the same,

And both that morning equally lay
In leaves no step had trodden black.
Oh, I kept the first for another day!
Yet knowing how way leads on to way,
I doubted if I should ever come back.

I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

 

[Coatigan]

Very pertinent line:

Two roads diverged in a yellow wood,
And sorry I could not travel both
And be one traveler, long I stood
And looked down one as far as I could
To where it bent in the undergrowth;

Then took the other, as just as fair,
And having perhaps the better claim,
Because it was grassy and wanted wear;
Though as for that the passing there
Had worn them really about the same,

And both that morning equally lay
In leaves no step had trodden black.
Oh, I kept the first for another day!
Yet knowing how way leads on to way,
I doubted if I should ever come back.

I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

One of my favourite poems. Had never put it into a political context however. Still feels somewhat crude to do so tbh.

 

[Saddleworth2]

One of my favourite poems. Had never put it into a political context however. Still feels somewhat crude to do so tbh.

I don’t know. It’s about choices after all, and that is what we face.
anyway, I never claimed to be sophisticated.

 

[Magicpole]

What are you moaning about precisely, honest question magic.

I was moaning about the rise of the right.and expressing my view that we need to get away from a union where we don't agree. I accept the principal that any country is allowed to choose and that should include us. I want to have at least a go at being a fairer, less hate filled place where we blame others for us taking our eye off the ball. That's it really.

 

[Coatigan]

Anyway a good debate as always. Be good to have this debate over a pint. I love the passion you fellas have.

Fair comment to add to the mix. One thing I'd highlight for a bit of a setting. If you were having these debates with people who had all voted for independence, didn't get it and are still pushing it, I would fully understand some of your issue. Remember however that over 50% of those you are debating with now voted no the last time and were happy with the outcome. Some have since outright changed their mind, some are open to changing their mind, or are just accepting of a seemingly inevitable outcome. With all, the fallout of brexit seems to be the big change. So I don't think I'm wrong, when I say the landscape has changed.

 

[Saddleworth2]

the union. You talk as if you did and have been denied that right. You had a choice and decided to stay.

Just one word and it begins with B and ends with x and can be followed by betrayal.

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

Fair comment to add to the mix. One thing I'd highlight for a bit of a setting. If you were having these debates with people who had all voted for independence, didn't get it and are still pushing it, I would fully understand some of your issue. Remember however that over 50% of those you are debating with now voted no the last time and were happy with the outcome. Some have since outright changed their mind, some are open to changing their mind, or are just accepting of a seemingly inevitable outcome. With all, the fallout of brexit seems to be the big change. So I don't think I'm wrong, when I say the landscape has changed.

Fair comment, I would just like to add, I dont have an issue with Scottish Independence. I just think its a bit of a crazy a decision they will come back to bite you guys pretty hard. It will be lot harder to make work than the UK leaving the EU. We are already a sovereign state with all the macinery that that goes with that. You would be starting from scratch in so many areas. But we shall see, as I said previously as just hope that if it comes to another vote Johnson doesnt follow Camerons path and offer Sturgeon more bribes to stay.

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

Just one word and it begins with B and ends with x and can be followed by betrayal.

Bollox Betrayal?? Got me their fella.

 

[Magicpole]

Fair comment to add to the mix. One thing I'd highlight for a bit of a setting. If you were having these debates with people who had all voted for independence, didn't get it and are still pushing it, I would fully understand some of your issue. Remember however that over 50% of those you are debating with now voted no the last time and were happy with the outcome. Some have since outright changed their mind, some are open to changing their mind, or are just accepting of a seemingly inevitable outcome. With all, the fallout of brexit seems to be the big change. So I don't think I'm wrong, when I say the landscape has changed.

People change their minds usually through experience. We need to accept there is nothing wrong with voting No the last time. To welcome them, to remind ourselves the countless times we have changed ours and to try and convince others to do the same. I, like most of us, have made some choices I later looked at and thought, really. Although most I can say I did them in good faith. The fact if life us we change, we don't stop questioning and it is a sign of courage to change and admit you have done so. I welcome all my fellow Scots who have now changed their position and if t wasn't for Covid would give every single one of them.a hug. Clocks don't go back for a reason, it's what happens today and tomorrow that will make our lot better.

 

[Magicpole]

oh come on magicpole stop whining. Your giving the scots a bad name. You dont actually get shafted do you!! Try living in northern England. Then you would really have something to moan about.

And another thing. Take away my whining and all I would have to talk about are my spanners and glorious hair. Now I could go on all day about both, and rightly so, I hear you murmur. But, whining is fun.

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

And another thing. Take away my whining and all I would have to talk about are my spanners and glorious hair. Now I could go on all day about both, and rightly so, I hear you murmur. But, whining is fun.

haha, fair enough mp. Stay safe and happy up there and cheer on us blues at the end of the month, I know you have a soft spot for us! .

 

[Saddleworth2]

And another thing. Take away my whining and all I would have to talk about are my spanners and glorious hair. Now I could go on all day about both, and rightly so, I hear you murmur. But, whining is fun.

Your hair isn't all that tbf mate.

 

[Magicpole]

Your hair isn't all that tbf mate.

That is the actual photo that inspired me to regail my glorious hair and I haven't stopped since. Its a work of art.

 

[AlfGreyruinedmyday]

The Scots can do what they want as far as I'm concerned but they need to be have answers to at least the following questions:

What impact will the ending of the Barnett formula have on their finances?;
Can a population of 5 million afford to protect Scotland's substantial coastline?;
Will the EU welcome them?; and most importantly
Who will they blame if they gain independence and the shit hits the fan?

 

[Saddleworth2]

The Scots can do what they want as far as I'm concerned but they need to be have answers to at least the following questions:

What impact will the ending of the Barnett formula have on their finances?;

Scotland will have a deficit that needs to be managed over time principally by expanding its economy. For further reading try the Strategy for Growth reports written by the SGC a couple of years ago. More detail there than you could ever wish for.

Can a population of 5 million afford to protect Scotland's substantial coastline?;

Yes. We only have a couple of rowing boats doing it now.

Will the EU welcome them?;

With open arms

and most importantly
Who will they blame if they gain independence and the shit hits the fan?

Nobody but ourselves. Then we will work until the fan is pristine.
The ability to make our own mistakes is what comes with independence. Better that than suffering the mistakes of a government that is openly rejected in Scotland by the vast majority.

 

[Magicpole]

The Scots can do what they want as far as I'm concerned but they need to be have answers to at least the following questions:

What impact will the ending of the Barnett formula have on their finances?;
Can a population of 5 million afford to protect Scotland's substantial coastline?;
Will the EU welcome them?; and most importantly
Who will they blame if they gain independence and the shit hits the fan?

We send twice the Barnet formula every year in tax, and that doesn't include oil or whisky.
Yes, we can defend it as no **** is attacking it since the Vikings
The EU are already making moves to fastrack us back in, as we didn't want to leave and if we are back, inward investment will increase as we have access to the market.
We won't blame anybody but ourselves, but you seem to think we are fucking thick and unable to succeed. We are very clever and always have been. Will we get everything right? Do the Tories? Does anyone? No, so that's a straw man argument. Show me any country thst never fucks things up and I will show you one that has never existed. There are hundreds of small countries doing very well without our natural resources, science, education, culture and grit. We will be absolutely fine and as an absolute worst case scenario, we will be no worse than being run by an absent landlord who treats us like shit. Have you listened to that fat lying bastard Boris, telling us what he will allow us to do, in our own country, after we voted for it? I would take the same ten years of utter austerity they cunts have foistered on us any day, if we could work to determine how we fix it. The question you should ask, is, can we afford not to have the Scots? My bet is you can't. Hence the absolute reluctance to let us go. They may convince you and some of us we can't do it, but why are they so scared? Time will reveal that and it won't be good for you more than it is for us.
You will be stuck with Tories. Getting away from they cunts would be worth the ticket alone.

 

[Gabriel]

Can a population of 5 million afford to protect Scotland's substantial coastline?;

Croatia has a longer coastline than Scotland, but a smaller population, and it appears to be managing.

 

[AlfGreyruinedmyday]

We send twice the Barnet formula every year in tax, and that doesn't include oil or whisky.
Yes, we can defend it as no **** is attacking it since the Vikings
The EU are already making moves to fastrack us back in, as we didn't want to leave and if we are back, inward investment will increase as we have access to the market.
We won't blame anybody but ourselves, but you seem to think we are fucking thick and unable to succeed. We are very clever and always have been. Will we get everything right? Do the Tories? Does anyone? No, so that's a straw man argument. Show me any country thst never fucks things up and I will show you one that has never existed. There are hundreds of small countries doing very well without our natural resources, science, education, culture and grit. We will be absolutely fine and as an absolute worst case scenario, we will be no worse than being run by an absent landlord who treats us like shit. Have you listened to that fat lying bastard Boris, telling us what he will allow us to do, in our own country, after we voted for it? I would take the same ten years of utter austerity they cunts have foistered on us any day, if we could work to determine how we fix it. The question you should ask, is, can we afford not to have the Scots? My bet is you can't. Hence the absolute reluctance to let us go. They may convince you and some of us we can't do it, but why are they so scared? Time will reveal that and it won't be good for you more than it is for us.
You will be stuck with Tories. Getting away from they cunts would be worth the ticket alone.

Just as the the UK is finding its feet after Brexit, an independent Scotland will have teething troubles. I applaud your optimism and I hope it is repaid. Only time will tell if independence is the solution to your travails. The big bad wolf has been around since man first started telling tales. Is paradise regained once he's gone? Or does another ogre emerge?
Eire, over time, may give you some pointers with regard to any future relationship with Brussels. Its relationship is the closest to the one you would have with the EU.
By the way, I don't think you are fucking thick. Highly romantic maybe. Invaders don't come in long-ships anymore. They're much more subtle now.

 

[AlfGreyruinedmyday]

Croatia has a longer coastline than Scotland, but a smaller population, and it appears to be managing.

It's not on an isolated island though. That has a bearing on the issue. There's a much more limited need to protect the coast in any defensive threat whether it be from the Russians or smugglers.

 

[Gabriel]

It's not on an isolated island though. That has a bearing on the issue. There's a much more limited need to protect the coast in any defensive threat whether it be from the Russians or smugglers.

Scotland isn’t an island, nor is it isolated. If it chose independence, then presumably it would have a share of Royal Navy resources, and if it joined the European Union, it would presumably collaborate with other European forces.