Trayvon Martin

Here's a post from a police officer that is similar to my take. I've spoken to a few buddies as well from the force and most of us figure the same. Zimmerman wants to be a Big Man.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/07/14/1223459/-A-Cop-s-take-on-the-Verdict?detail=email#

The verdict was ridiculous but not surprising. The only way I would describe the way that I feel is nausea. I am just sick that this guy got off and his lawyers are going to shamelessly be doing victory laps on TV for the next several weeks. I also feel so terrible for Trayvon Martin's parents who had to live through that clown show just to see this punk Zimmerman walk. But right now my burning issue is with all of the police officers that defended this idiot from the beginning. Because as a cop of 11 years myself this burns me especially deeply.

First off I'll just say that for me to write this post I have to be brutally honest about a side of the job that most non-police don't even know that much about, the police-adjacent characters that play a pretty significant role in the career of the average police officer. NO not fireman and EMS. I'm talking about the other people that if you work the street you get to know by name because you see them that often. They are the medical examiners, the tow truck drivers, and yes at times the Security Types. Security types come in basically two flavors; bouncer types and security guard types.

Security Guard Types:

If you've gone to the calls and done the job you know dudes like this. You usually meet them pretty early on in your career and you get used to them, they can be clingy at times. As you gain experience you learn what they do well and what they don't. Most of the time the whole precinct knows who they are. They will work security at an apartment complex or a gated community. In my case I worked a pretty rough side of Atlanta so there were no gated communities there, only apartments, and trust me the apartments that had gates were the roughest of all. These security guard types usually know all the neighborhood "stuff". They know (or purport to know) who sells the drugs and who is breaking in houses. They definitely know about the noise complaints and the unruly kids. The teens smoking weed. Most of the time they wan't you to run some dope-boy off or break up the couple having sex in the parking lot. Or maybe they are in over their head with a thug that they have talked a little to sassy too and they have been told they are going to get beat up or worse. Sometimes they do get beat up and worse. There is a place for people like this. They should be respected for what they do. But they should always respect what role they play and even more than that the limits of their authority.

In my experience this person gets in over their head a lot. There seems to be this struggle between what they perceive as their authority and what they know is their responsibility. As a cop they can make your life easier if they just keep the little stuff tamped down, (i.e. kids running at the pool, loud music complaints). But When you drive up and the security guard hands you a 27 ounce bag of weed that they just "confiscated" from someone in a car that is now unoccupied, the occupant of which has since run into a now locked apartment that Mr security just happens to have the key to, and they are begging you to enter (with no warrant), so that they can "help you apprehend the perp", well I think you get the picture. Every single day police officers have to make decisions like this. All are trained, some better than others. Security officer's choose to make these decisions without the training.

The Bouncer Types:

I can't lie, I've worked off duty at night clubs and been thankful for the security there. I have been in bar fights so massively bad that they looked like a scene from brave heart. When you are alone and the music is loud and everybody is yelling and screaming and running its hard to get backup so the only thing that has saved my ass a few times was the folks in security until the cavalry got there. Some of these folks are top notch, some are ex-pro athletes and martial artists. Some are even models and actors so you get a healthy mix. Many a night standing in the cold waiting on my shift to end I've talked to these guys about their dreams and some I've thought would be some really excellent police officers and I've told them so. I've encouraged them in the process, called friends in the department that were recruiters, even given personal references for them. So I definitely appreciate and respect what they do. At times I've worked with security that were more professional than some of the sworn officers that I worked the streets with. But then of course you've got the real knuckle-dragger's that just love to beat people up and then bring them to you looking like a grapefruit expecting you to look the other way. They are just clowns through and through and most likely sociopaths. Some of them may be doing drugs on the job but if they are real turds they may be the ones selling the drugs in the same club they work in. It's a dirty business. But they probably only make up a small part of the population.

In both groups, a lot of these guys probably work security because they have a desire at some level to be a police officer. I always took that as a compliment not with disdain. Law enforcement is an honorable profession and people do good work. But like any other job you have to have good people to do the good work. I've always believed that it is the combination of intelligence, integrity and courage that makes an average police officer a good officer, but I believe it is empathy that comes with experience that makes a good officer great. It is the same dynamic for security officers. The vast majority of these people are hard working folks that are very good at what they do. They are a true asset to law enforcement as long as they stay in their lane and do what they are supposed to do. I'm no longer a police officer I'm actually a counselor now. We have this term in the mental health field that we use that's called "scope of practice". If you are a mental health counselor, practicing outside of your scope will get your ass in trouble and your license revoked. Practicing outside your scope of practice in law enforcement will get your certification revoked and your ass prosecuted and put in prison. But what happens if you are a security guard and you "work outside of your scope of practice"? Well it looks like you can shoot somebody and walk free.

George Zimmerman:

George fits into a special category that we will just term the perpetual wanna-be. He loves guns, he loves MMA, he watches cops. He fancies himself a criminal investigator in the making. He patrols in his personal vehicle, keeps a police scanner and thinks that he has a direct line into dispatch. The dispatchers on night shift probably do know him by name only because he shows up on caller ID so much. On the night in question he probably sees Trayvon and for some tragic reason made his mind up that this sneaky perp wasn't going to get away from him this time. His GUN makes him do things that he shouldn't do because he is basically a coward. He follows, attacks, then is bested in a ground fight by a 17 year old boy that he outweighed by several pounds that he then decides to shoot at point blank range. Even the fight scene that played out in Zimmermans mind was written like an urban contemporary movie with Trayvon's last words saying "you got me". (really?) As a police officer you are trained to use the necessary force to subdue the threat but if there is no longer a deadly threat, deadly force is no longer necessary or approved. Translation = Had this been a real police officer, his ass would be in deep shit. The local police knew he was a cheese ball. That's why they never hired him. They probably knew him by name.

I think what we have in George Zimmerman is a person who very likely has tried to be a police officer many, many, many times but couldn't for some very good reasons. He has probably tried to apply to police departments and could not pass the entry requirements. Now from the surface you would say this is because of his size. You may surmise that he probably couldn't meet the weight or fitness standard. But I disagree. I would wager that Mr. Zimmerman has probably never gotten past the psyche evaluation. I'm sure laws prohibit the release of applicant information but I would bet that he has applied to at least 2 or more sheriff or police departments in the area and has been declined. You see even in a big city it's a relatively small community. Once you begin applying and fail a polygraph or fail a psych, that follows you. Chances are he's failed a few and has likely been blacklisted. Judging from his demeanor and some of the witness statements he may have some delusions as well. As many voter purges as FL has done it is amazing that this man was able to purchase a weapon after an altercation with police and a DV but I assume that is what having a father in law enforcement will get you. Just from the 30,000 foot view Zimmerman probably never should have been able to purchase a gun. Zimmerman never should have held the job that he did. And Zimmerman never should have been able to get away with murder but he did.

That is what is so infuriating and confusing about this case. Good police officers that I know personally very well, that I have policed with, bled with, have taken sides on this case that are completely contrary to everything they have ever demonstrated in their entire professional lives. People that would be pulling their eye teeth out with pliers if they had to deal with a guy like Zimmerman on their beat are cheering his acquittal. People that supervise officers. If this scenario had played out with one of their subordinates shooting an unarmed teen after pursuing them under these circumstances they would have recommended termination at the least and gone all in on an Internal Affairs Investigation are saying the prosecution never had a case. I am sure that my old department would not have hesitated a moment to prosecute any off duty police officer if they had done the same thing that George Zimmerman did. But for some reason this case triggered some sort of collective fugue state that has clouded every bodies mind. At some point this became a basketball game for them, our team versus their team. Now we've got defense lawyers doing victory laps, cops cheering prosecutors losing a case and 60% of the country feeling like a guilty man is going free.
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ElanJo said:
hilts said:
ElanJo said:
Walking through the airport last week I saw a group of 5 or so arabs decked out in full Islamic gear. I turned to a mate and said jokingly 'I hope they aren't on our flight'. I was only half joking.

Walked onto the plane and there they were.

Was I concerned to some degree? Yes. Did I die? No. Was I wrong? Yes. Am I racist against arabs and/or prejudiced against Muslims? No.


I'd put it to anyone that Zimmerman's action to call the police about what he saw was, based on the fact that burglaries (esp. on RVC) are much more common than terrorist attacks on planes, much more understandable than what I thought at the airport. And yet I am sure we've all had those thoughts on a plane or at an airport at some point.

I think a large part of the evening was most likely a string of understandable but incorrect thoughts, choices and actions. In the end tho, based on the evidence and having watched every minute of the trial, I think it's clear that the jury made the right decision. Trayvon's death, a tragedy in human terms for sure, was almost certainly justifiable.
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I don't think you can say they were justifiable, what it comes down to is how the conversation went at the point when they actually came into contact and we will never know how that conversation went
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Based on an eye(ear)witness (her name escapes me atm) the conversation right before the fight was a quick A-B-A (person A said something, person B replied and then A said something)

Itt doesn't come down to that tho. As I've said a few times now, I can throw a punch at you (and land) and yet be justified in using deadly force against you at a later time.

Imagine that I walk up and punch you. I've started the fight but it does not mean that I have to just let you do whatever you want to me in reply. If you jump on me (cutting off any hope of retreat) and whip out a machete am I expected to hold my hands up and say "oh, ok, fair enough, I punched you. my bad. you can decapitate me and I'm not allowed to do shit". Nope. I can use deadly force on you, you machete wielding twat ;).
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we don't know though that martin was banging Zimmermans head on concrete or that he went for his gun that is his version

take two scenarios out of many that could have occurred

Zimmerman asks martin what he is doing martin replies what the fuck has it got to do with you Zimmerman tells him the police are on their way and tries to restrain martin

martin punches zimmerman he falls over and bangs his head, adrenalin kicks in he's pissed off and shoots martin - zimmerman should go to jail

or

martin attacks zimmerman bangs his head on the pavement see's his gun but zimmerman grabs it first and shoots martin - zimmerman fearing for his life acts in self defence and shoots him - zimmerman is justified in his actions

we will never know but a jury has to clear him and people claiming Zimmerman is a charles bronson rascist vigilante are just guessing
 
taconinja said:
Here's a post from a police officer that is similar to my take. I've spoken to a few buddies as well from the force and most of us figure the same. Zimmerman wants to be a Big Man.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/07/14/1223459/-A-Cop-s-take-on-the-Verdict?detail=email#

The verdict was ridiculous but not surprising. The only way I would describe the way that I feel is nausea. I am just sick that this guy got off and his lawyers are going to shamelessly be doing victory laps on TV for the next several weeks. I also feel so terrible for Trayvon Martin's parents who had to live through that clown show just to see this punk Zimmerman walk. But right now my burning issue is with all of the police officers that defended this idiot from the beginning. Because as a cop of 11 years myself this burns me especially deeply.

First off I'll just say that for me to write this post I have to be brutally honest about a side of the job that most non-police don't even know that much about, the police-adjacent characters that play a pretty significant role in the career of the average police officer. NO not fireman and EMS. I'm talking about the other people that if you work the street you get to know by name because you see them that often. They are the medical examiners, the tow truck drivers, and yes at times the Security Types. Security types come in basically two flavors; bouncer types and security guard types.

Security Guard Types:

If you've gone to the calls and done the job you know dudes like this. You usually meet them pretty early on in your career and you get used to them, they can be clingy at times. As you gain experience you learn what they do well and what they don't. Most of the time the whole precinct knows who they are. They will work security at an apartment complex or a gated community. In my case I worked a pretty rough side of Atlanta so there were no gated communities there, only apartments, and trust me the apartments that had gates were the roughest of all. These security guard types usually know all the neighborhood "stuff". They know (or purport to know) who sells the drugs and who is breaking in houses. They definitely know about the noise complaints and the unruly kids. The teens smoking weed. Most of the time they wan't you to run some dope-boy off or break up the couple having sex in the parking lot. Or maybe they are in over their head with a thug that they have talked a little to sassy too and they have been told they are going to get beat up or worse. Sometimes they do get beat up and worse. There is a place for people like this. They should be respected for what they do. But they should always respect what role they play and even more than that the limits of their authority.

In my experience this person gets in over their head a lot. There seems to be this struggle between what they perceive as their authority and what they know is their responsibility. As a cop they can make your life easier if they just keep the little stuff tamped down, (i.e. kids running at the pool, loud music complaints). But When you drive up and the security guard hands you a 27 ounce bag of weed that they just "confiscated" from someone in a car that is now unoccupied, the occupant of which has since run into a now locked apartment that Mr security just happens to have the key to, and they are begging you to enter (with no warrant), so that they can "help you apprehend the perp", well I think you get the picture. Every single day police officers have to make decisions like this. All are trained, some better than others. Security officer's choose to make these decisions without the training.

The Bouncer Types:

I can't lie, I've worked off duty at night clubs and been thankful for the security there. I have been in bar fights so massively bad that they looked like a scene from brave heart. When you are alone and the music is loud and everybody is yelling and screaming and running its hard to get backup so the only thing that has saved my ass a few times was the folks in security until the cavalry got there. Some of these folks are top notch, some are ex-pro athletes and martial artists. Some are even models and actors so you get a healthy mix. Many a night standing in the cold waiting on my shift to end I've talked to these guys about their dreams and some I've thought would be some really excellent police officers and I've told them so. I've encouraged them in the process, called friends in the department that were recruiters, even given personal references for them. So I definitely appreciate and respect what they do. At times I've worked with security that were more professional than some of the sworn officers that I worked the streets with. But then of course you've got the real knuckle-dragger's that just love to beat people up and then bring them to you looking like a grapefruit expecting you to look the other way. They are just clowns through and through and most likely sociopaths. Some of them may be doing drugs on the job but if they are real turds they may be the ones selling the drugs in the same club they work in. It's a dirty business. But they probably only make up a small part of the population.

In both groups, a lot of these guys probably work security because they have a desire at some level to be a police officer. I always took that as a compliment not with disdain. Law enforcement is an honorable profession and people do good work. But like any other job you have to have good people to do the good work. I've always believed that it is the combination of intelligence, integrity and courage that makes an average police officer a good officer, but I believe it is empathy that comes with experience that makes a good officer great. It is the same dynamic for security officers. The vast majority of these people are hard working folks that are very good at what they do. They are a true asset to law enforcement as long as they stay in their lane and do what they are supposed to do. I'm no longer a police officer I'm actually a counselor now. We have this term in the mental health field that we use that's called "scope of practice". If you are a mental health counselor, practicing outside of your scope will get your ass in trouble and your license revoked. Practicing outside your scope of practice in law enforcement will get your certification revoked and your ass prosecuted and put in prison. But what happens if you are a security guard and you "work outside of your scope of practice"? Well it looks like you can shoot somebody and walk free.

George Zimmerman:

George fits into a special category that we will just term the perpetual wanna-be. He loves guns, he loves MMA, he watches cops. He fancies himself a criminal investigator in the making. He patrols in his personal vehicle, keeps a police scanner and thinks that he has a direct line into dispatch. The dispatchers on night shift probably do know him by name only because he shows up on caller ID so much. On the night in question he probably sees Trayvon and for some tragic reason made his mind up that this sneaky perp wasn't going to get away from him this time. His GUN makes him do things that he shouldn't do because he is basically a coward. He follows, attacks, then is bested in a ground fight by a 17 year old boy that he outweighed by several pounds that he then decides to shoot at point blank range. Even the fight scene that played out in Zimmermans mind was written like an urban contemporary movie with Trayvon's last words saying "you got me". (really?) As a police officer you are trained to use the necessary force to subdue the threat but if there is no longer a deadly threat, deadly force is no longer necessary or approved. Translation = Had this been a real police officer, his ass would be in deep shit. The local police knew he was a cheese ball. That's why they never hired him. They probably knew him by name.

I think what we have in George Zimmerman is a person who very likely has tried to be a police officer many, many, many times but couldn't for some very good reasons. He has probably tried to apply to police departments and could not pass the entry requirements. Now from the surface you would say this is because of his size. You may surmise that he probably couldn't meet the weight or fitness standard. But I disagree. I would wager that Mr. Zimmerman has probably never gotten past the psyche evaluation. I'm sure laws prohibit the release of applicant information but I would bet that he has applied to at least 2 or more sheriff or police departments in the area and has been declined. You see even in a big city it's a relatively small community. Once you begin applying and fail a polygraph or fail a psych, that follows you. Chances are he's failed a few and has likely been blacklisted. Judging from his demeanor and some of the witness statements he may have some delusions as well. As many voter purges as FL has done it is amazing that this man was able to purchase a weapon after an altercation with police and a DV but I assume that is what having a father in law enforcement will get you. Just from the 30,000 foot view Zimmerman probably never should have been able to purchase a gun. Zimmerman never should have held the job that he did. And Zimmerman never should have been able to get away with murder but he did.

That is what is so infuriating and confusing about this case. Good police officers that I know personally very well, that I have policed with, bled with, have taken sides on this case that are completely contrary to everything they have ever demonstrated in their entire professional lives. People that would be pulling their eye teeth out with pliers if they had to deal with a guy like Zimmerman on their beat are cheering his acquittal. People that supervise officers. If this scenario had played out with one of their subordinates shooting an unarmed teen after pursuing them under these circumstances they would have recommended termination at the least and gone all in on an Internal Affairs Investigation are saying the prosecution never had a case. I am sure that my old department would not have hesitated a moment to prosecute any off duty police officer if they had done the same thing that George Zimmerman did. But for some reason this case triggered some sort of collective fugue state that has clouded every bodies mind. At some point this became a basketball game for them, our team versus their team. Now we've got defense lawyers doing victory laps, cops cheering prosecutors losing a case and 60% of the country feeling like a guilty man is going free.
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In fairness mate there is so many presumptions there it is unreal, as an ex copper you must know that a jury can only deal in facts, if this was written by someone who had day to day dealings with Zimmerman then fine although the verdict would have still been the same but he has stereotyped Zimmerman from his experience, you cant decide someone's guilt from experience of others
 
taconinja said:
Here's a post from a police officer that is similar to my take. I've spoken to a few buddies as well from the force and most of us figure the same. Zimmerman wants to be a Big Man.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/07/14/1223459/-A-Cop-s-take-on-the-Verdict?detail=email#

The verdict was ridiculous but not surprising. The only way I would describe the way that I feel is nausea. I am just sick that this guy got off and his lawyers are going to shamelessly be doing victory laps on TV for the next several weeks. I also feel so terrible for Trayvon Martin's parents who had to live through that clown show just to see this punk Zimmerman walk. But right now my burning issue is with all of the police officers that defended this idiot from the beginning. Because as a cop of 11 years myself this burns me especially deeply.

First off I'll just say that for me to write this post I have to be brutally honest about a side of the job that most non-police don't even know that much about, the police-adjacent characters that play a pretty significant role in the career of the average police officer. NO not fireman and EMS. I'm talking about the other people that if you work the street you get to know by name because you see them that often. They are the medical examiners, the tow truck drivers, and yes at times the Security Types. Security types come in basically two flavors; bouncer types and security guard types.

Security Guard Types:

If you've gone to the calls and done the job you know dudes like this. You usually meet them pretty early on in your career and you get used to them, they can be clingy at times. As you gain experience you learn what they do well and what they don't. Most of the time the whole precinct knows who they are. They will work security at an apartment complex or a gated community. In my case I worked a pretty rough side of Atlanta so there were no gated communities there, only apartments, and trust me the apartments that had gates were the roughest of all. These security guard types usually know all the neighborhood "stuff". They know (or purport to know) who sells the drugs and who is breaking in houses. They definitely know about the noise complaints and the unruly kids. The teens smoking weed. Most of the time they wan't you to run some dope-boy off or break up the couple having sex in the parking lot. Or maybe they are in over their head with a thug that they have talked a little to sassy too and they have been told they are going to get beat up or worse. Sometimes they do get beat up and worse. There is a place for people like this. They should be respected for what they do. But they should always respect what role they play and even more than that the limits of their authority.

In my experience this person gets in over their head a lot. There seems to be this struggle between what they perceive as their authority and what they know is their responsibility. As a cop they can make your life easier if they just keep the little stuff tamped down, (i.e. kids running at the pool, loud music complaints). But When you drive up and the security guard hands you a 27 ounce bag of weed that they just "confiscated" from someone in a car that is now unoccupied, the occupant of which has since run into a now locked apartment that Mr security just happens to have the key to, and they are begging you to enter (with no warrant), so that they can "help you apprehend the perp", well I think you get the picture. Every single day police officers have to make decisions like this. All are trained, some better than others. Security officer's choose to make these decisions without the training.

The Bouncer Types:

I can't lie, I've worked off duty at night clubs and been thankful for the security there. I have been in bar fights so massively bad that they looked like a scene from brave heart. When you are alone and the music is loud and everybody is yelling and screaming and running its hard to get backup so the only thing that has saved my ass a few times was the folks in security until the cavalry got there. Some of these folks are top notch, some are ex-pro athletes and martial artists. Some are even models and actors so you get a healthy mix. Many a night standing in the cold waiting on my shift to end I've talked to these guys about their dreams and some I've thought would be some really excellent police officers and I've told them so. I've encouraged them in the process, called friends in the department that were recruiters, even given personal references for them. So I definitely appreciate and respect what they do. At times I've worked with security that were more professional than some of the sworn officers that I worked the streets with. But then of course you've got the real knuckle-dragger's that just love to beat people up and then bring them to you looking like a grapefruit expecting you to look the other way. They are just clowns through and through and most likely sociopaths. Some of them may be doing drugs on the job but if they are real turds they may be the ones selling the drugs in the same club they work in. It's a dirty business. But they probably only make up a small part of the population.

In both groups, a lot of these guys probably work security because they have a desire at some level to be a police officer. I always took that as a compliment not with disdain. Law enforcement is an honorable profession and people do good work. But like any other job you have to have good people to do the good work. I've always believed that it is the combination of intelligence, integrity and courage that makes an average police officer a good officer, but I believe it is empathy that comes with experience that makes a good officer great. It is the same dynamic for security officers. The vast majority of these people are hard working folks that are very good at what they do. They are a true asset to law enforcement as long as they stay in their lane and do what they are supposed to do. I'm no longer a police officer I'm actually a counselor now. We have this term in the mental health field that we use that's called "scope of practice". If you are a mental health counselor, practicing outside of your scope will get your ass in trouble and your license revoked. Practicing outside your scope of practice in law enforcement will get your certification revoked and your ass prosecuted and put in prison. But what happens if you are a security guard and you "work outside of your scope of practice"? Well it looks like you can shoot somebody and walk free.

George Zimmerman:

George fits into a special category that we will just term the perpetual wanna-be. He loves guns, he loves MMA, he watches cops. He fancies himself a criminal investigator in the making. He patrols in his personal vehicle, keeps a police scanner and thinks that he has a direct line into dispatch. The dispatchers on night shift probably do know him by name only because he shows up on caller ID so much. On the night in question he probably sees Trayvon and for some tragic reason made his mind up that this sneaky perp wasn't going to get away from him this time. His GUN makes him do things that he shouldn't do because he is basically a coward. He follows, attacks, then is bested in a ground fight by a 17 year old boy that he outweighed by several pounds that he then decides to shoot at point blank range. Even the fight scene that played out in Zimmermans mind was written like an urban contemporary movie with Trayvon's last words saying "you got me". (really?) As a police officer you are trained to use the necessary force to subdue the threat but if there is no longer a deadly threat, deadly force is no longer necessary or approved. Translation = Had this been a real police officer, his ass would be in deep shit. The local police knew he was a cheese ball. That's why they never hired him. They probably knew him by name.

I think what we have in George Zimmerman is a person who very likely has tried to be a police officer many, many, many times but couldn't for some very good reasons. He has probably tried to apply to police departments and could not pass the entry requirements. Now from the surface you would say this is because of his size. You may surmise that he probably couldn't meet the weight or fitness standard. But I disagree. I would wager that Mr. Zimmerman has probably never gotten past the psyche evaluation. I'm sure laws prohibit the release of applicant information but I would bet that he has applied to at least 2 or more sheriff or police departments in the area and has been declined. You see even in a big city it's a relatively small community. Once you begin applying and fail a polygraph or fail a psych, that follows you. Chances are he's failed a few and has likely been blacklisted. Judging from his demeanor and some of the witness statements he may have some delusions as well. As many voter purges as FL has done it is amazing that this man was able to purchase a weapon after an altercation with police and a DV but I assume that is what having a father in law enforcement will get you. Just from the 30,000 foot view Zimmerman probably never should have been able to purchase a gun. Zimmerman never should have held the job that he did. And Zimmerman never should have been able to get away with murder but he did.

That is what is so infuriating and confusing about this case. Good police officers that I know personally very well, that I have policed with, bled with, have taken sides on this case that are completely contrary to everything they have ever demonstrated in their entire professional lives. People that would be pulling their eye teeth out with pliers if they had to deal with a guy like Zimmerman on their beat are cheering his acquittal. People that supervise officers. If this scenario had played out with one of their subordinates shooting an unarmed teen after pursuing them under these circumstances they would have recommended termination at the least and gone all in on an Internal Affairs Investigation are saying the prosecution never had a case. I am sure that my old department would not have hesitated a moment to prosecute any off duty police officer if they had done the same thing that George Zimmerman did. But for some reason this case triggered some sort of collective fugue state that has clouded every bodies mind. At some point this became a basketball game for them, our team versus their team. Now we've got defense lawyers doing victory laps, cops cheering prosecutors losing a case and 60% of the country feeling like a guilty man is going free.
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You'd think that a Cop (or a "Big Man", apparently) would do a little bit of investigating before just making shit up.
If he had watched the trial he would have known that Zimmerman was rejected because of poor credit.
 
hilts said:
ElanJo said:
hilts said:
I don't think you can say they were justifiable, what it comes down to is how the conversation went at the point when they actually came into contact and we will never know how that conversation went
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Based on an eye(ear)witness (her name escapes me atm) the conversation right before the fight was a quick A-B-A (person A said something, person B replied and then A said something)

Itt doesn't come down to that tho. As I've said a few times now, I can throw a punch at you (and land) and yet be justified in using deadly force against you at a later time.

Imagine that I walk up and punch you. I've started the fight but it does not mean that I have to just let you do whatever you want to me in reply. If you jump on me (cutting off any hope of retreat) and whip out a machete am I expected to hold my hands up and say "oh, ok, fair enough, I punched you. my bad. you can decapitate me and I'm not allowed to do shit". Nope. I can use deadly force on you, you machete wielding twat ;).
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we don't know though that martin was banging Zimmermans head on concrete or that he went for his gun that is his version

take two scenarios out of many that could have occurred

Zimmerman asks martin what he is doing martin replies what the fuck has it got to do with you Zimmerman tells him the police are on their way and tries to restrain martin

martin punches zimmerman he falls over and bangs his head, adrenalin kicks in he's pissed off and shoots martin - zimmerman should go to jail

or

martin attacks zimmerman bangs his head on the pavement see's his gun but zimmerman grabs it first and shoots martin - zimmerman fearing for his life acts in self defence and shoots him - zimmerman is justified in his actions

we will never know but a jury has to clear him and people claiming Zimmerman is a charles bronson rascist vigilante are just guessing
Click to expand...

The first scenario doesn't fit the evidence or the time elapsed. How do the screams fit in? How does what John Good saw fit into that?

We don't know whether Trayvon went for the gun, correct, but what John Good saw backs up what Zimmerman said happened other than that. Did Trayvon hit Zimmerman's head on the concrete etc. as many times as Zimmerman said he did? probably not.

If I was to give each of Zimmerman and Trayvon the benefit of the doubt, I would speculate that when Zimmerman went to phone the police Trayvon thought he was going for a gun and so attacked him. That's understandable on Trayvon's part. It doesn't really explain why Trayvon didn't get off Zimmerman when John Good arrived on the scene tho.
 
hilts said:
taconinja said:
Here's a post from a police officer that is similar to my take. I've spoken to a few buddies as well from the force and most of us figure the same. Zimmerman wants to be a Big Man.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/07/14/1223459/-A-Cop-s-take-on-the-Verdict?detail=email#

The verdict was ridiculous but not surprising. The only way I would describe the way that I feel is nausea. I am just sick that this guy got off and his lawyers are going to shamelessly be doing victory laps on TV for the next several weeks. I also feel so terrible for Trayvon Martin's parents who had to live through that clown show just to see this punk Zimmerman walk. But right now my burning issue is with all of the police officers that defended this idiot from the beginning. Because as a cop of 11 years myself this burns me especially deeply.

First off I'll just say that for me to write this post I have to be brutally honest about a side of the job that most non-police don't even know that much about, the police-adjacent characters that play a pretty significant role in the career of the average police officer. NO not fireman and EMS. I'm talking about the other people that if you work the street you get to know by name because you see them that often. They are the medical examiners, the tow truck drivers, and yes at times the Security Types. Security types come in basically two flavors; bouncer types and security guard types.

Security Guard Types:

If you've gone to the calls and done the job you know dudes like this. You usually meet them pretty early on in your career and you get used to them, they can be clingy at times. As you gain experience you learn what they do well and what they don't. Most of the time the whole precinct knows who they are. They will work security at an apartment complex or a gated community. In my case I worked a pretty rough side of Atlanta so there were no gated communities there, only apartments, and trust me the apartments that had gates were the roughest of all. These security guard types usually know all the neighborhood "stuff". They know (or purport to know) who sells the drugs and who is breaking in houses. They definitely know about the noise complaints and the unruly kids. The teens smoking weed. Most of the time they wan't you to run some dope-boy off or break up the couple having sex in the parking lot. Or maybe they are in over their head with a thug that they have talked a little to sassy too and they have been told they are going to get beat up or worse. Sometimes they do get beat up and worse. There is a place for people like this. They should be respected for what they do. But they should always respect what role they play and even more than that the limits of their authority.

In my experience this person gets in over their head a lot. There seems to be this struggle between what they perceive as their authority and what they know is their responsibility. As a cop they can make your life easier if they just keep the little stuff tamped down, (i.e. kids running at the pool, loud music complaints). But When you drive up and the security guard hands you a 27 ounce bag of weed that they just "confiscated" from someone in a car that is now unoccupied, the occupant of which has since run into a now locked apartment that Mr security just happens to have the key to, and they are begging you to enter (with no warrant), so that they can "help you apprehend the perp", well I think you get the picture. Every single day police officers have to make decisions like this. All are trained, some better than others. Security officer's choose to make these decisions without the training.

The Bouncer Types:

I can't lie, I've worked off duty at night clubs and been thankful for the security there. I have been in bar fights so massively bad that they looked like a scene from brave heart. When you are alone and the music is loud and everybody is yelling and screaming and running its hard to get backup so the only thing that has saved my ass a few times was the folks in security until the cavalry got there. Some of these folks are top notch, some are ex-pro athletes and martial artists. Some are even models and actors so you get a healthy mix. Many a night standing in the cold waiting on my shift to end I've talked to these guys about their dreams and some I've thought would be some really excellent police officers and I've told them so. I've encouraged them in the process, called friends in the department that were recruiters, even given personal references for them. So I definitely appreciate and respect what they do. At times I've worked with security that were more professional than some of the sworn officers that I worked the streets with. But then of course you've got the real knuckle-dragger's that just love to beat people up and then bring them to you looking like a grapefruit expecting you to look the other way. They are just clowns through and through and most likely sociopaths. Some of them may be doing drugs on the job but if they are real turds they may be the ones selling the drugs in the same club they work in. It's a dirty business. But they probably only make up a small part of the population.

In both groups, a lot of these guys probably work security because they have a desire at some level to be a police officer. I always took that as a compliment not with disdain. Law enforcement is an honorable profession and people do good work. But like any other job you have to have good people to do the good work. I've always believed that it is the combination of intelligence, integrity and courage that makes an average police officer a good officer, but I believe it is empathy that comes with experience that makes a good officer great. It is the same dynamic for security officers. The vast majority of these people are hard working folks that are very good at what they do. They are a true asset to law enforcement as long as they stay in their lane and do what they are supposed to do. I'm no longer a police officer I'm actually a counselor now. We have this term in the mental health field that we use that's called "scope of practice". If you are a mental health counselor, practicing outside of your scope will get your ass in trouble and your license revoked. Practicing outside your scope of practice in law enforcement will get your certification revoked and your ass prosecuted and put in prison. But what happens if you are a security guard and you "work outside of your scope of practice"? Well it looks like you can shoot somebody and walk free.

George Zimmerman:

George fits into a special category that we will just term the perpetual wanna-be. He loves guns, he loves MMA, he watches cops. He fancies himself a criminal investigator in the making. He patrols in his personal vehicle, keeps a police scanner and thinks that he has a direct line into dispatch. The dispatchers on night shift probably do know him by name only because he shows up on caller ID so much. On the night in question he probably sees Trayvon and for some tragic reason made his mind up that this sneaky perp wasn't going to get away from him this time. His GUN makes him do things that he shouldn't do because he is basically a coward. He follows, attacks, then is bested in a ground fight by a 17 year old boy that he outweighed by several pounds that he then decides to shoot at point blank range. Even the fight scene that played out in Zimmermans mind was written like an urban contemporary movie with Trayvon's last words saying "you got me". (really?) As a police officer you are trained to use the necessary force to subdue the threat but if there is no longer a deadly threat, deadly force is no longer necessary or approved. Translation = Had this been a real police officer, his ass would be in deep shit. The local police knew he was a cheese ball. That's why they never hired him. They probably knew him by name.

I think what we have in George Zimmerman is a person who very likely has tried to be a police officer many, many, many times but couldn't for some very good reasons. He has probably tried to apply to police departments and could not pass the entry requirements. Now from the surface you would say this is because of his size. You may surmise that he probably couldn't meet the weight or fitness standard. But I disagree. I would wager that Mr. Zimmerman has probably never gotten past the psyche evaluation. I'm sure laws prohibit the release of applicant information but I would bet that he has applied to at least 2 or more sheriff or police departments in the area and has been declined. You see even in a big city it's a relatively small community. Once you begin applying and fail a polygraph or fail a psych, that follows you. Chances are he's failed a few and has likely been blacklisted. Judging from his demeanor and some of the witness statements he may have some delusions as well. As many voter purges as FL has done it is amazing that this man was able to purchase a weapon after an altercation with police and a DV but I assume that is what having a father in law enforcement will get you. Just from the 30,000 foot view Zimmerman probably never should have been able to purchase a gun. Zimmerman never should have held the job that he did. And Zimmerman never should have been able to get away with murder but he did.

That is what is so infuriating and confusing about this case. Good police officers that I know personally very well, that I have policed with, bled with, have taken sides on this case that are completely contrary to everything they have ever demonstrated in their entire professional lives. People that would be pulling their eye teeth out with pliers if they had to deal with a guy like Zimmerman on their beat are cheering his acquittal. People that supervise officers. If this scenario had played out with one of their subordinates shooting an unarmed teen after pursuing them under these circumstances they would have recommended termination at the least and gone all in on an Internal Affairs Investigation are saying the prosecution never had a case. I am sure that my old department would not have hesitated a moment to prosecute any off duty police officer if they had done the same thing that George Zimmerman did. But for some reason this case triggered some sort of collective fugue state that has clouded every bodies mind. At some point this became a basketball game for them, our team versus their team. Now we've got defense lawyers doing victory laps, cops cheering prosecutors losing a case and 60% of the country feeling like a guilty man is going free.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

In fairness mate there is so many presumptions there it is unreal, as an ex copper you must know that a jury can only deal in facts, if this was written by someone who had day to day dealings with Zimmerman then fine although the verdict would have still been the same but he has stereotyped Zimmerman from his experience, you cant decide someone's guilt from experience of others
Click to expand...
Guy that wrote that? Not a juror. Me? Not a juror. That's not how it works. This isn't CSI. Zimmerman decided several things about Martin or he wouldn't have instigated. He didn't get all hand-wringy about not being able to decide. He saw someone. He decided that someone was suspicious. Now that someone is dead. If I'm on a jury, I go in with different parameters. If I'm working as an officer, I have different parameters. One of those is making decisions. You think cops arrest people after getting to know them? No, they decide quickly who is a threat and who isn't. Good cops are good at it. Bad cops aren't. Crooked cops have different criteria. That's how it works. Honestly one of the reasons I got out is because its too easy to treat every problem like a nail and you've got the world's best hammer in your holster. Didn't like it at all.<br /><br />-- Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:53 pm --<br /><br />
ElanJo said:
taconinja said:
Here's a post from a police officer that is similar to my take. I've spoken to a few buddies as well from the force and most of us figure the same. Zimmerman wants to be a Big Man.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/07/14/1223459/-A-Cop-s-take-on-the-Verdict?detail=email#

The verdict was ridiculous but not surprising. The only way I would describe the way that I feel is nausea. I am just sick that this guy got off and his lawyers are going to shamelessly be doing victory laps on TV for the next several weeks. I also feel so terrible for Trayvon Martin's parents who had to live through that clown show just to see this punk Zimmerman walk. But right now my burning issue is with all of the police officers that defended this idiot from the beginning. Because as a cop of 11 years myself this burns me especially deeply.

First off I'll just say that for me to write this post I have to be brutally honest about a side of the job that most non-police don't even know that much about, the police-adjacent characters that play a pretty significant role in the career of the average police officer. NO not fireman and EMS. I'm talking about the other people that if you work the street you get to know by name because you see them that often. They are the medical examiners, the tow truck drivers, and yes at times the Security Types. Security types come in basically two flavors; bouncer types and security guard types.

Security Guard Types:

If you've gone to the calls and done the job you know dudes like this. You usually meet them pretty early on in your career and you get used to them, they can be clingy at times. As you gain experience you learn what they do well and what they don't. Most of the time the whole precinct knows who they are. They will work security at an apartment complex or a gated community. In my case I worked a pretty rough side of Atlanta so there were no gated communities there, only apartments, and trust me the apartments that had gates were the roughest of all. These security guard types usually know all the neighborhood "stuff". They know (or purport to know) who sells the drugs and who is breaking in houses. They definitely know about the noise complaints and the unruly kids. The teens smoking weed. Most of the time they wan't you to run some dope-boy off or break up the couple having sex in the parking lot. Or maybe they are in over their head with a thug that they have talked a little to sassy too and they have been told they are going to get beat up or worse. Sometimes they do get beat up and worse. There is a place for people like this. They should be respected for what they do. But they should always respect what role they play and even more than that the limits of their authority.

In my experience this person gets in over their head a lot. There seems to be this struggle between what they perceive as their authority and what they know is their responsibility. As a cop they can make your life easier if they just keep the little stuff tamped down, (i.e. kids running at the pool, loud music complaints). But When you drive up and the security guard hands you a 27 ounce bag of weed that they just "confiscated" from someone in a car that is now unoccupied, the occupant of which has since run into a now locked apartment that Mr security just happens to have the key to, and they are begging you to enter (with no warrant), so that they can "help you apprehend the perp", well I think you get the picture. Every single day police officers have to make decisions like this. All are trained, some better than others. Security officer's choose to make these decisions without the training.

The Bouncer Types:

I can't lie, I've worked off duty at night clubs and been thankful for the security there. I have been in bar fights so massively bad that they looked like a scene from brave heart. When you are alone and the music is loud and everybody is yelling and screaming and running its hard to get backup so the only thing that has saved my ass a few times was the folks in security until the cavalry got there. Some of these folks are top notch, some are ex-pro athletes and martial artists. Some are even models and actors so you get a healthy mix. Many a night standing in the cold waiting on my shift to end I've talked to these guys about their dreams and some I've thought would be some really excellent police officers and I've told them so. I've encouraged them in the process, called friends in the department that were recruiters, even given personal references for them. So I definitely appreciate and respect what they do. At times I've worked with security that were more professional than some of the sworn officers that I worked the streets with. But then of course you've got the real knuckle-dragger's that just love to beat people up and then bring them to you looking like a grapefruit expecting you to look the other way. They are just clowns through and through and most likely sociopaths. Some of them may be doing drugs on the job but if they are real turds they may be the ones selling the drugs in the same club they work in. It's a dirty business. But they probably only make up a small part of the population.

In both groups, a lot of these guys probably work security because they have a desire at some level to be a police officer. I always took that as a compliment not with disdain. Law enforcement is an honorable profession and people do good work. But like any other job you have to have good people to do the good work. I've always believed that it is the combination of intelligence, integrity and courage that makes an average police officer a good officer, but I believe it is empathy that comes with experience that makes a good officer great. It is the same dynamic for security officers. The vast majority of these people are hard working folks that are very good at what they do. They are a true asset to law enforcement as long as they stay in their lane and do what they are supposed to do. I'm no longer a police officer I'm actually a counselor now. We have this term in the mental health field that we use that's called "scope of practice". If you are a mental health counselor, practicing outside of your scope will get your ass in trouble and your license revoked. Practicing outside your scope of practice in law enforcement will get your certification revoked and your ass prosecuted and put in prison. But what happens if you are a security guard and you "work outside of your scope of practice"? Well it looks like you can shoot somebody and walk free.

George Zimmerman:

George fits into a special category that we will just term the perpetual wanna-be. He loves guns, he loves MMA, he watches cops. He fancies himself a criminal investigator in the making. He patrols in his personal vehicle, keeps a police scanner and thinks that he has a direct line into dispatch. The dispatchers on night shift probably do know him by name only because he shows up on caller ID so much. On the night in question he probably sees Trayvon and for some tragic reason made his mind up that this sneaky perp wasn't going to get away from him this time. His GUN makes him do things that he shouldn't do because he is basically a coward. He follows, attacks, then is bested in a ground fight by a 17 year old boy that he outweighed by several pounds that he then decides to shoot at point blank range. Even the fight scene that played out in Zimmermans mind was written like an urban contemporary movie with Trayvon's last words saying "you got me". (really?) As a police officer you are trained to use the necessary force to subdue the threat but if there is no longer a deadly threat, deadly force is no longer necessary or approved. Translation = Had this been a real police officer, his ass would be in deep shit. The local police knew he was a cheese ball. That's why they never hired him. They probably knew him by name.

I think what we have in George Zimmerman is a person who very likely has tried to be a police officer many, many, many times but couldn't for some very good reasons. He has probably tried to apply to police departments and could not pass the entry requirements. Now from the surface you would say this is because of his size. You may surmise that he probably couldn't meet the weight or fitness standard. But I disagree. I would wager that Mr. Zimmerman has probably never gotten past the psyche evaluation. I'm sure laws prohibit the release of applicant information but I would bet that he has applied to at least 2 or more sheriff or police departments in the area and has been declined. You see even in a big city it's a relatively small community. Once you begin applying and fail a polygraph or fail a psych, that follows you. Chances are he's failed a few and has likely been blacklisted. Judging from his demeanor and some of the witness statements he may have some delusions as well. As many voter purges as FL has done it is amazing that this man was able to purchase a weapon after an altercation with police and a DV but I assume that is what having a father in law enforcement will get you. Just from the 30,000 foot view Zimmerman probably never should have been able to purchase a gun. Zimmerman never should have held the job that he did. And Zimmerman never should have been able to get away with murder but he did.

That is what is so infuriating and confusing about this case. Good police officers that I know personally very well, that I have policed with, bled with, have taken sides on this case that are completely contrary to everything they have ever demonstrated in their entire professional lives. People that would be pulling their eye teeth out with pliers if they had to deal with a guy like Zimmerman on their beat are cheering his acquittal. People that supervise officers. If this scenario had played out with one of their subordinates shooting an unarmed teen after pursuing them under these circumstances they would have recommended termination at the least and gone all in on an Internal Affairs Investigation are saying the prosecution never had a case. I am sure that my old department would not have hesitated a moment to prosecute any off duty police officer if they had done the same thing that George Zimmerman did. But for some reason this case triggered some sort of collective fugue state that has clouded every bodies mind. At some point this became a basketball game for them, our team versus their team. Now we've got defense lawyers doing victory laps, cops cheering prosecutors losing a case and 60% of the country feeling like a guilty man is going free.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

You'd think that a Cop (or a "Big Man", apparently) would do a little bit of investigating before just making shit up.
If he had watched the trial he would have known that Zimmerman was rejected because of poor credit.
Click to expand...
Yeah. I know what was said at the trial. Maybe it's true. Maybe it's not.
 
sweynforkbeard said:
rick773 said:
With a last name like Zimmerman you'd think his finances would be in order
Click to expand...


Sorry - can you elaborate?
Click to expand...

Because the people I knew with that surname were jewish. Sometimes people stereotype them as being good with money.

The interview piers just did with rachel jenteal was pretty interesting. Interesting is probably the wrong word.
 
rick773 said:
sweynforkbeard said:
rick773 said:
With a last name like Zimmerman you'd think his finances would be in order
Click to expand...


Sorry - can you elaborate?
Click to expand...

Because the people I knew with that surname were jewish. Sometimes people stereotype them as being good with money.

The interview piers just did with rachel jenteal was pretty interesting. Interesting is probably the wrong word.
Click to expand...

Gays don't mind being raped lmao
 
sweynforkbeard said:
rick773 said:
With a last name like Zimmerman you'd think his finances would be in order
Click to expand...


Sorry - can you elaborate?
Click to expand...

I think the inference is that fiscal probity would be a given for a man of Jewish persuasion, although Mr Zimmerman hardly looks like your average rabbi, but clearly his legal costs have escalated wildly since Mr Martin started knocking on heavens door after police found blood on the tracks.
 
nijinsky's fetlocks said:
I think the inference is that fiscal probity would be a given for a man of Jewish persuasion, although Mr Zimmerman hardly looks like your average rabbi, but clearly his legal costs have escalated wildly since Mr Martin started knocking on heavens door after police found blood on the tracks.
Click to expand...
I'm surprised the reaction from the black community hasn't been more violent. I thought Zimmerman would need shelter from the storm of hate.
 
We are talking about a country where OJ Simpson was aquitted of double homicide, when he was nailed on guilty, kinda says it all really, just be thankful we do not have the same gun laws over here. I dont know the full details of this case but Im sure pointing the gun at the kid and telling him to do one off the estate would have been sufficient, Zimmerman wanted to kill someone in my opinion for reasons known only to himself, the crazy laws in that state regarding the right to shoot someone without recrimination provided him with the means. He will be tried and convicted in a civil court and he will be fined as I dont think you can recieve a custodial sentence in the civil court in USA.
 
Jumanji said:
Guy raises some great points.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtcveaMUJSI[/youtube]
Click to expand...


bluemanc said:
White man shoots black man then white man gets away with it is a better story,on here & outside.
Obama has even got involved in it,not sure whether its the race angle(which doesn't exist)or the law itself,Gun Law will be the last thing Obama will want this to be about.
A lot of sense being spoken about the 2 involved on the net,but it gets overshadowed by shite i'm afraid.
Click to expand...

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/cri...-black-13-year-old-neighbor-article-1.1399107

ElanJo said:
The Young Turks are such morons
Click to expand...

Sure, sure they are...





*Thanks to Barcon for that terrific link to this site! Full of smh stuff!!



ElanJo said:
Walking through the airport last week I saw a group of 5 or so arabs decked out in full Islamic gear. I turned to a mate and said jokingly 'I hope they aren't on our flight'. I was only half joking.

Walked onto the plane and there they were.

Was I concerned to some degree? Yes. Did I die? No. Was I wrong? Yes. Am I racist against arabs and/or prejudiced against Muslims? No.


I'd put it to anyone that Zimmerman's action to call the police about what he saw was, based on the fact that burglaries (esp. on RVC) are much more common than terrorist attacks on planes, much more understandable than what I thought at the airport. And yet I am sure we've all had those thoughts on a plane or at an airport at some point.

I think a large part of the evening was most likely a string of understandable but incorrect thoughts, choices and actions. In the end tho, based on the evidence and having watched every minute of the trial, I think it's clear that the jury made the right decision. Trayvon's death, a tragedy in human terms for sure, was almost certainly justifiable.
Click to expand...

You answer your own questions from your own point of view yet agree you were a harbinger of racial profiling with regards to your own safety, but don't class it as racist?? If you said that to an independent psych analyst, I would think they may offer you another opinion. Genius...

I cannot believe I have read that an unarmed teen's fight with an armed man with a history of aggressive behaviour was "almost certainly justifiable" in the result of death. You have no clue what happened. Where was Zimmerman's gun if he was able to discharge from being straddled? Obviously on him, so it was clear that Zimmerman's frame of mind was readied "for any eventuality" when he decided a 'slow walking' Martin, who was armed with sweets and a drink was 'suspicious'. But you can't make an argument against the 'premeditation factor' cos it means Zimmerman would have to be unarmed.

Your(now unsurprising) comment staggers belief. You are making assumptions on this part of Martin's involvement and, therefore, adjudging his life to be worth less.

There are some real class kunts on BM, for real.
 
Bigga said:
ElanJo said:
Walking through the airport last week I saw a group of 5 or so arabs decked out in full Islamic gear. I turned to a mate and said jokingly 'I hope they aren't on our flight'. I was only half joking.

Walked onto the plane and there they were.

Was I concerned to some degree? Yes. Did I die? No. Was I wrong? Yes. Am I racist against arabs and/or prejudiced against Muslims? No.


I'd put it to anyone that Zimmerman's action to call the police about what he saw was, based on the fact that burglaries (esp. on RVC) are much more common than terrorist attacks on planes, much more understandable than what I thought at the airport. And yet I am sure we've all had those thoughts on a plane or at an airport at some point.

I think a large part of the evening was most likely a string of understandable but incorrect thoughts, choices and actions. In the end tho, based on the evidence and having watched every minute of the trial, I think it's clear that the jury made the right decision. Trayvon's death, a tragedy in human terms for sure, was almost certainly justifiable.
Click to expand...

You answer your own questions from your own point of view yet agree you were a harbinger of racial profiling with regards to your own safety, but don't class it as racist?? If you said that to an independent psych analyst, I would think they may offer you another opinion. Genius...

I cannot believe I have read that an unarmed teen's fight with an armed man with a history of aggressive behaviour was "almost certainly justifiable" in the result of death. You have no clue what happened. Where was Zimmerman's gun if he was able to discharge from being straddled? Obviously on him, so it was clear that Zimmerman's frame of mind was readied "for any eventuality" when he decided a 'slow walking' Martin, who was armed with sweets and a drink was 'suspicious'. But you can't make an argument against the 'premeditation factor' cos it means Zimmerman would have to be unarmed.

Your(now unsurprising) comment staggers belief. You are making assumptions on this part of Martin's involvement and, therefore, adjudging his life to be worth less.

There are some real class kunts on BM, for real.
Click to expand...

Recent experience can make people overly sensitive to negative potentialities in certain environments and under certain circumstances. I'm not racist.

I have more of a clue than you, I know that much. I know that Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman and that he didn't stop bringing his arms down on him "MMA style" even when John Good came outside. At that point he is certainly the aggressor. Even if Zimmerman threw the first punch, for which there is no evidence, it doesn't matter. Considering Trayvon either waited at or turned around and went back up to the T, it makes more sense that he started it. But it doesn't matter.
BTW, stop saying "unarmed" or "armed with skittles/sweets", what relevance does it have? Zimmerman did not know whether or not he had a gun. It's just emotionally manipulative language in place of a real argument.

Being prepared does not equal premeditation, obviously.

Why is my comment "now unsurprising"?

How does the act of making assumptions about someone mean that as I result I am judging their life worth less?

You'll notice that I am asking you questions again as I always do (which is kind of foolish on my part because you rarely ever answer my questions). That's because you don't make arguments, and when you do they are all too often masked behind, let's say, convoluted grandstanding.
 
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