UKIP

[EalingBlue2]

If you truly believe anything you have mentioned about the EU then I would book in to see some sort of mental psychologist straight away! Don't embarrass yourself on a forum like this discussing issues and topics of debate you clearly don't understand or you are simply unable to open your own eyes and are unable to see things as they are. I can't wait for you to accuse me of being a bigot or a racist!

I have said very little about the EU other than it brought Europe and as we are talking the EU this means western Europe an unprecedented period of wealth and peace. This is not debatable it is simple fact and it is not even debatable. You say I can't see things as they are but unless I lived through and missed world war three then frankly I am not sure I even understand what you are talking about or are you claiming that there has been another Great War or we were richer in the 30's???

i
Europe has been at peace with itself since the 1950's. The EU was formed in 1992, so I don't buy in to the idea that the EU has 'brought peace'; we already had it 40 years before it was formed. Nobody is saying that co-operation between European nations isn't necessary, what we're debating is what role the EU intends to play. We have already have peace in Europe... so why does the EU need to be stronger? To be a 'force' in the world? To be a major player on the world stage? Sorry, but that's not what we signed up for. Fair trade and co-operation, not laws passed by a select few who are chosen by a commission we didn't vote for. The EU sounds more like coercion than co-operation to me.

Keep trade with European nations, continue to allow immigration with the world and European nations with all subject to the same criteria that benefits the country rather than an advantage for some being members of a union which excludes over 150 nations, and provide aid and assistance where required. All this is achievable without being a part of a political union with a group which is becoming just as corrupt and self serving as Westminster.

To clarify I am talking about the institutions which I think started with the ECSC, then EEC then EU all essentially an evolution. I am not sure whether or not the post war founders had the EU of today in mind or not but I suspect not a lot of it

In a democracy we usually get the politicians we deserve as we choose who gets elected. personally I think the media is the greater problem as it totally shapes how the majority think and it shapes how facts are perceived. That the media is controlled by a few people who shape political debate and do so for profit often never having resided in the countries they shape is a concern. But sadly the only thing worse than a "free" media is a state media

 

[Ancient Citizen]

The irony is that UKIP a is made up of the most status quo of the status quo, the group responsible for the start of many absolute fuck ups under thatcher. Now they abandon their party and pretend they are outsiders fighting against the establishment they were part of. Goebells couldn't make it up better but you get what you vote for. Lucky Scotland voted no for the future safety of Britain!

Then again I think that the EU which was established to stop another world war and to bring peace and prosperity has actually been an amazing success and helped bring incredible wealth and unprecedented peace to Europe.

But if trying to recreate a mystical golden age back in the 50's and if blaming foreigners is easier than uncovering the real issues is what you want then fair enough!

Society has one real problem and that is a system designed around people working from 18-65 paying tax and then dying at about 70 whereas people aspire to work from 23 to 60 and expect to live to 90+ it is a major major issue and as far as I can see not something that nasty foreigners are to blame for

The EU was not established to stop another world war, it was solely a trading body, originally, it has received all it's protection from the member states of NATO, it has had fuck all influence in 'bringing peace' to Europe.

NATO was about protecting the west from the soviet Union - it was not about bringing peace within western Europe. Back in the 50's many played a part in formation all based on bringing western Europe together closely to bring peace and wealth . I am not interested in any debate on the modern EU or the issues of today but I will stand by the fact that the European institutions helped bring unprecedented peace to western Europe and that Western Europe also had unprecedented levels of wealth for its people . The latter would have happened without the eec as the same was true in all the west. The former I am not convinced about - western Europe had two millennia of almost constant war before hand

NATO was the organisation that ensured the Soviets kept away from any advances into Western Europe, the formation of the EU was not undertaken to militarily protect it's members, as it looked to NATO for that protection, you are suggesting that we have not had wars within Europe because of a trading treaty. We have not been free of war in Western Europe because of the efforts of the EU, it was purely and simply a trading body that has now morphed into a Federalist gargantuan. Western Europe doesn't have its freedoms because of the activities of the EU.

 

[EalingBlue2]

The EU was not established to stop another world war, it was solely a trading body, originally, it has received all it's protection from the member states of NATO, it has had fuck all influence in 'bringing peace' to Europe.

NATO was about protecting the west from the soviet Union - it was not about bringing peace within western Europe. Back in the 50's many played a part in formation all based on bringing western Europe together closely to bring peace and wealth . I am not interested in any debate on the modern EU or the issues of today but I will stand by the fact that the European institutions helped bring unprecedented peace to western Europe and that Western Europe also had unprecedented levels of wealth for its people . The latter would have happened without the eec as the same was true in all the west. The former I am not convinced about - western Europe had two millennia of almost constant war before hand

NATO was the organisation that ensured the Soviets kept away from any advances into Western Europe, the formation of the EU was not undertaken to militarily protect it's members, as it looked to NATO for that protection, you are suggesting that we have not had wars within Europe because of a trading treaty. We have not been free of war in Western Europe because of the efforts of the EU, it was purely and simply a trading body that has now morphed into a Federalist gargantuan. Western Europe doesn't have its freedoms because of the activities of the EU.

We have been free of war for hundreds of reasons, trading, language barriers, economic interdependence, communications, spread of wealth, experience of the two great wars , it would be exceedingly naiive to deny any part in that to the economic unity in Europe or indeed to NATO or to many of the other factors .

As for wars not happening because of trade well history will show you as many times as you care to see that trade and economic interdependence can bring peace between nations.

I haven't yet experienced the great gargantuan monolith infringing on my basic rights as a Briton but I will take your word for it.

But for politicians for over a thousand years it has always been easy in times of hard problems to blame the French rather than make hard calls and I don't see this changing that much today what worked in 1400 works today!

 

[Balti]

personally I think we all pay far too much tax already

and don't get nearly enough back for it in return

and that is the fundamental problem that our society faces

too many people creaming off the top of the efforts of those who just try to get by and earn an honest living

the state is too big and too expensive and the EU is just yet another layer of bureaucratic expense that we don't need

so far we have subsidised their project by around 100 billion despite our ever increasing national debt

I can see no valid justification to continue with it personally

roll on the referendum that we have been denied for far too long

 

[Metal Biker]

I have said very little about the EU other than it brought Europe and as we are talking the EU this means western Europe an unprecedented period of wealth and peace. This is not debatable it is simple fact and it is not even debatable. You say I can't see things as they are but unless I lived through and missed world war three then frankly I am not sure I even understand what you are talking about or are you claiming that there has been another Great War or we were richer in the 30's???

i
Europe has been at peace with itself since the 1950's. The EU was formed in 1992, so I don't buy in to the idea that the EU has 'brought peace'; we already had it 40 years before it was formed. Nobody is saying that co-operation between European nations isn't necessary, what we're debating is what role the EU intends to play. We have already have peace in Europe... so why does the EU need to be stronger? To be a 'force' in the world? To be a major player on the world stage? Sorry, but that's not what we signed up for. Fair trade and co-operation, not laws passed by a select few who are chosen by a commission we didn't vote for. The EU sounds more like coercion than co-operation to me.

Keep trade with European nations, continue to allow immigration with the world and European nations with all subject to the same criteria that benefits the country rather than an advantage for some being members of a union which excludes over 150 nations, and provide aid and assistance where required. All this is achievable without being a part of a political union with a group which is becoming just as corrupt and self serving as Westminster.

To clarify I am talking about the institutions which I think started with the ECSC, then EEC then EU all essentially an evolution. I am not sure whether or not the post war founders had the EU of today in mind or not but I suspect not a lot of it

In a democracy we usually get the politicians we deserve as we choose who gets elected. personally I think the media is the greater problem as it totally shapes how the majority think and it shapes how facts are perceived. That the media is controlled by a few people who shape political debate and do so for profit often never having resided in the countries they shape is a concern. But sadly the only thing worse than a "free" media is a state media

Well sadly the politicians we elect to power in the EU aren't responsible for making the laws. That's the commission's job. All they can do is ratify the proposals into law and to my knowledge I can't think of any they haven't willingly approved.

The EU is a political union, one we didn't want nor were we entitled to a say on its creation. We voted to join the EEC; we became an EU member through proxy and have since had the treaties of Amsterdam, Nice, Lisbon and Rome, none of which the British public have ever been consulted on or given a voice over being in favour or opposing. France, Holland and Ireland did and they all voted NO, but the treaties were ratified anyway after a few 'tweaks'. which was then not put to the public vote for a referendum because it was technically a 'new treaty' and they had all lobbied for a referendum on the OLD treaty, which they got.

This is democracy? The EU just wants as much money of the taxpayers of Europe as possible. At present members states civilians pay taxes towards their individual nation member state and the EU. The EU hates the concept of 'nation states' and is trying to blend us all together as 'Europeans', giving us a flag and an anthem to 'rally' behind in an attempt to invoke some notion of pride at being 'Europeans'. Well we're not Europeans, we're British, we're French, we're German, we're Spanish, we're Italian etcetera. We love our cultural diversity of nations in Europe, but the EU wants to do away with all that 'nonsense' so that there is no need to divide taxpayers money amongst the individual member states and just have ONE superstate in which it can gleam ALL the taxes to become a world 'superpower'.

Is that the future you want for Europe? Well you can count me out, and by the sounds of things on the continent, you can count out a fair few hundred million others.

 

[EalingBlue2]

personally I think we all pay far too much tax already

and don't get nearly enough back for it in return

and that is the fundamental problem that our society faces

too many people creaming off the top of the efforts of those who just try to get by and earn an honest living

the state is too big and too expensive and the EU is just yet another layer of bureaucratic expense that we don't need

so far we have subsidised their project by around 100 billion despite our ever increasing national debt

I can see no valid justification to continue with it personally

roll on the referendum that we have been denied for far too long

There really are only two ways that society can go, one the Ron/rand Paul way where libertarianism prevails and where we pay less tax look after ourselves and those we can, but essentially we become a society of individuals with no safety net for the poor or weak . Or we accept a lower standard of living , share the wealth and agree collectively that we are prepared to make that sacrifice for the good of people we will never meet and that we trust other people to manage that redistribution who may not be great at doing it or trustworthy Not sure which way people will go or whether either can work!

But the reality is the population is ageing, healthcare is blowing out, pensions won't exist , resources are running out and everybody wants a higher standrard of living and more than their parents which doesn't add up. Politicians need to start being more honest and discussing the scale of challenges that await us all. The EU is a smokescreen used by politicians to shift blame and the sand structural problems exist with or without it.

is the solution socialism or individualism both could work but the hybrid mix of today clearly won't as it is not sustainable

 

[EalingBlue2]

personally I think we all pay far too much tax already

and don't get nearly enough back for it in return

and that is the fundamental problem that our society faces

too many people creaming off the top of the efforts of those who just try to get by and earn an honest living

the state is too big and too expensive and the EU is just yet another layer of bureaucratic expense that we don't need

so far we have subsidised their project by around 100 billion despite our ever increasing national debt

I can see no valid justification to continue with it personally

roll on the referendum that we have been denied for far too long

There really are only two ways that society can go, one the Ron/rand Paul way where libertarianism prevails and where we pay less tax look after ourselves and those we can, but essentially we become a society of individuals with no safety net for the poor or weak . Or we accept a lower standard of living , share the wealth and agree collectively that we are prepared to make that sacrifice for the good of people we will never meet and that we trust other people to manage that redistribution who may not be great at doing it or trustworthy Not sure which way people will go or whether either can work!

But the reality is the population is ageing, healthcare is blowing out, pensions won't exist , resources are running out and everybody wants a higher standrard of living and more than their parents which doesn't add up. Politicians need to start being more honest and discussing the scale of challenges that await us all. The EU is a smokescreen used by politicians to shift blame and the sand structural problems exist with or without it.

is the solution socialism or individualism both could work but the hybrid mix of today clearly won't as it is not sustainable and I am not even sure which way you want to go. Your comment on people exploiting others honest hard work is pure Marxism but the tax comment is pure libertarianism

 

[EalingBlue2]

i
Europe has been at peace with itself since the 1950's. The EU was formed in 1992, so I don't buy in to the idea that the EU has 'brought peace'; we already had it 40 years before it was formed. Nobody is saying that co-operation between European nations isn't necessary, what we're debating is what role the EU intends to play. We have already have peace in Europe... so why does the EU need to be stronger? To be a 'force' in the world? To be a major player on the world stage? Sorry, but that's not what we signed up for. Fair trade and co-operation, not laws passed by a select few who are chosen by a commission we didn't vote for. The EU sounds more like coercion than co-operation to me.

Keep trade with European nations, continue to allow immigration with the world and European nations with all subject to the same criteria that benefits the country rather than an advantage for some being members of a union which excludes over 150 nations, and provide aid and assistance where required. All this is achievable without being a part of a political union with a group which is becoming just as corrupt and self serving as Westminster.

To clarify I am talking about the institutions which I think started with the ECSC, then EEC then EU all essentially an evolution. I am not sure whether or not the post war founders had the EU of today in mind or not but I suspect not a lot of it

In a democracy we usually get the politicians we deserve as we choose who gets elected. personally I think the media is the greater problem as it totally shapes how the majority think and it shapes how facts are perceived. That the media is controlled by a few people who shape political debate and do so for profit often never having resided in the countries they shape is a concern. But sadly the only thing worse than a "free" media is a state media

Well sadly the politicians we elect to power in the EU aren't responsible for making the laws. That's the commission's job. All they can do is ratify the proposals into law and to my knowledge I can't think of any they haven't willingly approved.

The EU is a political union, one we didn't want nor were we entitled to a say on its creation. We voted to join the EEC; we became an EU member through proxy and have since had the treaties of Amsterdam, Nice, Lisbon and Rome, none of which the British public have ever been consulted on or given a voice over being in favour or opposing. France, Holland and Ireland did and they all voted NO, but the treaties werke ratified anyway after a few 'tweaks'. which was then not put to the public vote for a referendum because it was technically a 'new treaty' and they had all lobbied for a referendum on the OLD treaty, which they got.

This is democracy? The EU just wants as much money of the taxpayers of Europe as possible. At present members states civilians pay taxes towards their individual nation member state and the EU. The EU hates the concept of 'nation states' and is trying to blend us all together as 'Europeans', giving us a flag and an anthem to 'rally' behind in an attempt to invoke some notion of pride at being 'Europeans'. Well we're not Europeans, we're British, we're French, we're German, we're Spanish, we're Italian etcetera. We love our cultural diversity of nations in Europe, but the EU wants to do away with all that 'nonsense' so that there is no need to divide taxpayers money amongst the individual member states and just have ONE superstate in which it can gleam ALL the taxes to become a world 'superpower'.

Is that the future you want for Europe? Well you can count me out, and by the sounds of things on the continent, you can count out a fair few hundred million others.

We are not all British or Spanish though are we, we are Catalan, or Welsh or Scottish or Flemish or basque and we live in artificial borders be they UK or EU or even England. What is in the interests of London is often more allied to the interests of Washington than it is to the interests of Birmingham, Luxembourg or Bangor. It is all artificial and yes some of the EU is nonsense, so is much of Westminster and what really matters is not arguing about which politician is in control but about how we solve the very real problems of sustaining an unsustainable economic model. That same problem exists in nearly all the west (australia included) bar Norway and a few others.

We can sort that out one by one, globally or regionally or a mix of all three but arguing about the eu and making that the big discussion is shifting deckchairs on the titanic. We need solutions not a debate about who is to blame - truth is no one is to blame we just live in a world where the demographic and economic factors that underpin the economies of the west have changed more dramatically than anyone ever imagined

 

[Bill Walker]

personally I think we all pay far too much tax already

and don't get nearly enough back for it in return

and that is the fundamental problem that our society faces

too many people creaming off the top of the efforts of those who just try to get by and earn an honest living

the state is too big and too expensive and the EU is just yet another layer of bureaucratic expense that we don't need

so far we have subsidised their project by around 100 billion despite our ever increasing national debt

I can see no valid justification to continue with it personally

roll on the referendum that we have been denied for far too long

Bang on Balti, I agree,

 

[Metal Biker]

To clarify I am talking about the institutions which I think started with the ECSC, then EEC then EU all essentially an evolution. I am not sure whether or not the post war founders had the EU of today in mind or not but I suspect not a lot of it

In a democracy we usually get the politicians we deserve as we choose who gets elected. personally I think the media is the greater problem as it totally shapes how the majority think and it shapes how facts are perceived. That the media is controlled by a few people who shape political debate and do so for profit often never having resided in the countries they shape is a concern. But sadly the only thing worse than a "free" media is a state media

Well sadly the politicians we elect to power in the EU aren't responsible for making the laws. That's the commission's job. All they can do is ratify the proposals into law and to my knowledge I can't think of any they haven't willingly approved.

The EU is a political union, one we didn't want nor were we entitled to a say on its creation. We voted to join the EEC; we became an EU member through proxy and have since had the treaties of Amsterdam, Nice, Lisbon and Rome, none of which the British public have ever been consulted on or given a voice over being in favour or opposing. France, Holland and Ireland did and they all voted NO, but the treaties were ratified anyway after a few 'tweaks'. which was then not put to the public vote for a referendum because it was technically a 'new treaty' and they had all lobbied for a referendum on the OLD treaty, which they got.

This is democracy? The EU just wants as much money of the taxpayers of Europe as possible. At present members states civilians pay taxes towards their individual nation member state and the EU. The EU hates the concept of 'nation states' and is trying to blend us all together as 'Europeans', giving us a flag and an anthem to 'rally' behind in an attempt to invoke some notion of pride at being 'Europeans'. Well we're not Europeans, we're British, we're French, we're German, we're Spanish, we're Italian etcetera. We love our cultural diversity of nations in Europe, but the EU wants to do away with all that 'nonsense' so that there is no need to divide taxpayers money amongst the individual member states and just have ONE superstate in which it can gleam ALL the taxes to become a world 'superpower'.

Is that the future you want for Europe? Well you can count me out, and by the sounds of things on the continent, you can count out a fair few hundred million others.

We are not all British or Spanish though are we, we are Catalan, or Welsh or Scottish or Flemish or basque and we live in artificial borders be they UK or EU or even England. What is in the interests of London is no more allied to the interests of Washington than it is to the interests of Luxembourg. It is all artificial and yes some of the EU is nonsense, so is much of Westminster and what really matters is not arguing about which politician is in control but about how we solve the very real problems of sustaining an unsustainable economic model. That same problem exists in nearly all the west bar Norway and a few others.

We can sort that out one by one, globally or regionally but arguing about the eu and making that the big discussion is shifting deckchairs on the titanic .

You're being pedantic there; you understood the point I was making (and for the record, the EU wants to do away with those identities also). You can consider yourself to be whatever nationality, background or cultural heritage that you wish. That is the freedom you currently enjoy. The EU wants to replace that ideology with a simple 'you ARE European' one. It sounds vaguely similar to an organisation that existed for the majority of the 20th Century onwards but is now defunct. It's on the tip of my tongue...

The Euro has failed; that much is plain for anyone to see. Who would willingly join the EU now with its mountains of debt and economic uncertainty? Yet some are willing to hand over even more powers and taxes to these people? One goes down, they all go down, as it proved to be the case and now only Germany is keeping the EU's head above water (with a little help from additional demands made on British taxpayers) and as a result they've imposed austerity measures across the board to all the struggling EU economies; if they want Germany's money, they'd better conform to the German working ethic.

It's proved a highly controversial and unpopular measure in many countries, yet some believe its easier to blame the governments of those nations rather than the EU itself, which is exactly how the EU wants it. Look at what happened in Greece; the public revolted, government was changed and it mattered little because the Greeks had no control over the demands made by the EU for their debt crisis. You can blame the Greeks for getting themselves into that mess, but what was it that made it possible? The EU itself and all the 'benefits' it brought them. Shift the blame, reject your local governments, embrace the EU as the saviour of every issue affecting the people of Europe today. Is that a circle of stars on the flag or a halo?

 

[EalingBlue2]

Well sadly the politicians we elect to power in the EU aren't responsible for making the laws. That's the commission's job. All they can do is ratify the proposals into law and to my knowledge I can't think of any they haven't willingly approved.

The EU is a political union, one we didn't want nor were we entitled to a say on its creation. We voted to join the EEC; we became an EU member through proxy and have since had the treaties of Amsterdam, Nice, Lisbon and Rome, none of which the British public have ever been consulted on or given a voice over being in favour or opposing. France, Holland and Ireland did and they all voted NO, but the treaties were ratified anyway after a few 'tweaks'. which was then not put to the public vote for a referendum because it was technically a 'new treaty' and they had all lobbied for a referendum on the OLD treaty, which they got.

This is democracy? The EU just wants as much money of the taxpayers of Europe as possible. At present members states civilians pay taxes towards their individual nation member state and the EU. The EU hates the concept of 'nation states' and is trying to blend us all together as 'Europeans', giving us a flag and an anthem to 'rally' behind in an attempt to invoke some notion of pride at being 'Europeans'. Well we're not Europeans, we're British, we're French, we're German, we're Spanish, we're Italian etcetera. We love our cultural diversity of nations in Europe, but the EU wants to do away with all that 'nonsense' so that there is no need to divide taxpayers money amongst the individual member states and just have ONE superstate in which it can gleam ALL the taxes to become a world 'superpower'.

Is that the future you want for Europe? Well you can count me out, and by the sounds of things on the continent, you can count out a fair few hundred million others.

We are not all British or Spanish though are we, we are Catalan, or Welsh or Scottish or Flemish or basque and we live in artificial borders be they UK or EU or even England. What is in the interests of London is no more allied to the interests of Washington than it is to the interests of Luxembourg. It is all artificial and yes some of the EU is nonsense, so is much of Westminster and what really matters is not arguing about which politician is in control but about how we solve the very real problems of sustaining an unsustainable economic model. That same problem exists in nearly all the west bar Norway and a few others.

We can sort that out one by one, globally or regionally but arguing about the eu and making that the big discussion is shifting deckchairs on the titanic .

You're being pedantic there; you understood the point I was making (and for the record, the EU wants to do away with those identities also). You can consider yourself to be whatever nationality, background or cultural heritage that you wish. That is the freedom you currently enjoy. The EU wants to replace that ideology with a simple 'you ARE European' one. It sounds vaguely similar to an organisation that existed for the majority of the 20th Century onwards but is now defunct. It's on the tip of my tongue...

The Euro has failed; that much is plain for anyone to see. Who would willingly join the EU now with its mountains of debt and economic uncertainty? Yet some are willing to hand over even more powers and taxes to these people? One goes down, they all go down, as it proved to be the case and now only Germany is keeping the EU's head above water (with a little help from additional demands made on British taxpayers) and as a result they've imposed austerity measures across the board to all the struggling EU economies; if they want Germany's money, they'd better conform to the German working ethic.

It's proved a highly controversial and unpopular measure in many countries, yet some believe its easier to blame the governments of those nations rather than the EU itself, which is exactly how the EU wants it.

All those problems you list are minor compared to the demographic and economic problems coming Europe and indeed the US's way and alone or as part of the EU Britain and everyone else in the west needs huge change. If that change is ignored by Europe and nations tinker around eu membership as the problem and exiting ad the solution then huge problems are to come. I don't care which entity be it a federal body, state government or whatever level starts to solve the problems as long as politicians start focusing on s long term solution fast and stop focusing on whether London, Edinburgh, Brussels or Strasbourg is to blame

 

[Metal Biker]

We are not all British or Spanish though are we, we are Catalan, or Welsh or Scottish or Flemish or basque and we live in artificial borders be they UK or EU or even England. What is in the interests of London is no more allied to the interests of Washington than it is to the interests of Luxembourg. It is all artificial and yes some of the EU is nonsense, so is much of Westminster and what really matters is not arguing about which politician is in control but about how we solve the very real problems of sustaining an unsustainable economic model. That same problem exists in nearly all the west bar Norway and a few others.

We can sort that out one by one, globally or regionally but arguing about the eu and making that the big discussion is shifting deckchairs on the titanic .

You're being pedantic there; you understood the point I was making (and for the record, the EU wants to do away with those identities also). You can consider yourself to be whatever nationality, background or cultural heritage that you wish. That is the freedom you currently enjoy. The EU wants to replace that ideology with a simple 'you ARE European' one. It sounds vaguely similar to an organisation that existed for the majority of the 20th Century onwards but is now defunct. It's on the tip of my tongue...

The Euro has failed; that much is plain for anyone to see. Who would willingly join the EU now with its mountains of debt and economic uncertainty? Yet some are willing to hand over even more powers and taxes to these people? One goes down, they all go down, as it proved to be the case and now only Germany is keeping the EU's head above water (with a little help from additional demands made on British taxpayers) and as a result they've imposed austerity measures across the board to all the struggling EU economies; if they want Germany's money, they'd better conform to the German working ethic.

It's proved a highly controversial and unpopular measure in many countries, yet some believe its easier to blame the governments of those nations rather than the EU itself, which is exactly how the EU wants it.

All those problems you list are minor compared to the demographic and economic problems coming Europe and indeed the US's way and alone or as part of the EU Britain and everyone else in the west needs huge change. If that change is ignored by Europe and nations tinker around eu membership as the problem and exiting ad the solution then huge problems are to come. I don't care which entity be it a federal body, state government or whatever level starts to solve the problems as long as politicians start focusing on s long term solution fast and stop focusing on whether London, Edinburgh, Brussels or Strasbourg is to blame

Personal freedoms and democratic method is a 'minor' problem now?

Out of the EU Britain could trade with any nation it wished, negotiating as needed to the benefit of both parties. The EU members could be difficult towards the UK if it so wished...not sure how that practice or thinking would help them. Lets not forget that Britain is still the third largest economy in the EU, soon predicted to overtake France in 2019. You think the EU rhetoric about the UK leaving isn't based on the fact that if we did they'd lose what essentially accounts as their left leg? (Or right leg, depending on your political ideology)

The EU has failed, the Euro has failed. Time to put it out of its misery and try something new, not hand more powers to these jokers only to have them mess it up even further. We all want change; prolonging the existence of the EU is not change.

 

[EalingBlue2]

You're being pedantic there; you understood the point I was making (and for the record, the EU wants to do away with those identities also). You can consider yourself to be whatever nationality, background or cultural heritage that you wish. That is the freedom you currently enjoy. The EU wants to replace that ideology with a simple 'you ARE European' one. It sounds vaguely similar to an organisation that existed for the majority of the 20th Century onwards but is now defunct. It's on the tip of my tongue...

The Euro has failed; that much is plain for anyone to see. Who would willingly join the EU now with its mountains of debt and economic uncertainty? Yet some are willing to hand over even more powers and taxes to these people? One goes down, they all go down, as it proved to be the case and now only Germany is keeping the EU's head above water (with a little help from additional demands made on British taxpayers) and as a result they've imposed austerity measures across the board to all the struggling EU economies; if they want Germany's money, they'd better conform to the German working ethic.

It's proved a highly controversial and unpopular measure in many countries, yet some believe its easier to blame the governments of those nations rather than the EU itself, which is exactly how the EU wants it.

All those problems you list are minor compared to the demographic and economic problems coming Europe and indeed the US's way and alone or as part of the EU Britain and everyone else in the west needs huge change. If that change is ignored by Europe and nations tinker around eu membership as the problem and exiting ad the solution then huge problems are to come. I don't care which entity be it a federal body, state government or whatever level starts to solve the problems as long as politicians start focusing on s long term solution fast and stop focusing on whether London, Edinburgh, Brussels or Strasbourg is to blame

Personal freedoms and democratic method is a 'minor' problem now?

Out of the EU Britain could trade with any nation it wished, negotiating as needed to the benefit of both parties. The EU members could be difficult towards the UK if it so wished...not sure how that practice or thinking would help them. Lets not forget that Britain is still the third largest economy in the EU, soon predicted to overtake France in 2019. You think the EU rhetoric about the UK leaving isn't based on the fact that if we did they'd lose what essentially accounts as their left leg? (Or right leg, depending on your political ideology)

The EU has failed, the Euro has failed. Time to put it out of its misery and try something new, not hand more powers to these jokers only to have them mess it up even further. We all want change; prolonging the existence of the EU is not change.

Nothing in the real world is so simple or black and white! the eu has succeeded and failed on many different things, it has done a lot of good, it had done bad. During that time British governments have done stupid things and good things and with far more proportionally at their disposal. In or out of the EU will make little difference to the real problems that need sorting and to make it the big political focus is at best naive at worst deliberately misleading . I am going to sleep now but if people want to blame Brussels for all that is wrong with the world thats fine but in ten years when the same problems exist and Britain is out of the EU then who will get the blame then?

But for tomorrow morning Do you blame the EU for the fact that the US and Japan will both be bankrupt in decades if they don't reform? Is the EU responsible for a long term structural deficit in australia of over 10%? Is the EU responsible for the collapse of economies like Argentina or the Ukraine. the real meaty problems in Europe are the problems of the west be they EU or not EU most will be Britains problems for decades to come whatever the referendum decides.

 

[Metal Biker]

All those problems you list are minor compared to the demographic and economic problems coming Europe and indeed the US's way and alone or as part of the EU Britain and everyone else in the west needs huge change. If that change is ignored by Europe and nations tinker around eu membership as the problem and exiting ad the solution then huge problems are to come. I don't care which entity be it a federal body, state government or whatever level starts to solve the problems as long as politicians start focusing on s long term solution fast and stop focusing on whether London, Edinburgh, Brussels or Strasbourg is to blame

Personal freedoms and democratic method is a 'minor' problem now?

Out of the EU Britain could trade with any nation it wished, negotiating as needed to the benefit of both parties. The EU members could be difficult towards the UK if it so wished...not sure how that practice or thinking would help them. Lets not forget that Britain is still the third largest economy in the EU, soon predicted to overtake France in 2019. You think the EU rhetoric about the UK leaving isn't based on the fact that if we did they'd lose what essentially accounts as their left leg? (Or right leg, depending on your political ideology)

The EU has failed, the Euro has failed. Time to put it out of its misery and try something new, not hand more powers to these jokers only to have them mess it up even further. We all want change; prolonging the existence of the EU is not change.

Nothing in the real world is so simple or black and white! the eu has succeeded and failed on many different things, it has done a lot of good, it had done bad. During that time British governments have done stupid things and good things and with far more proportionally at their disposal. In or out of the EU will make little difference to the real problems that need sorting and to make it the big political focus is at best naive at worst deliberately misleading . I am going to sleep now but if people want to blame Brussels for all that is wrong with the world thats fine but in ten years when the same problems exist and Britain is out of the EU then who will get the blame then?

The EU has had 22 years to get it right and it hasn't.

It's all well and good to say what these "good" things are that the EU has done but then fail to mention them. What ARE these supposed good things that ONLY an organisation and set-up like the EU has done? Everything they have done could have been implemented by simple cohesion and co-operating amongst European nations. The EEC worked fine. The EU? That just became all about political control.

The EEC was a good idea that lasted 35 years, the EU has been a bad one which I personally do not want to see existing past 25. Time for a new good idea, non? Because the only way the EU is going to survive is by all member states surrendering their sovereignty to a EU Central Power, and that sort of reality would give me nightmares. Pleasant dreams, anyhoo.

But for tomorrow morning Do you blame the EU for the fact that the US and Japan will both be bankrupt in decades if they don't reform? Is the EU responsible for a long term structural deficit in australia of over 10%? Is the EU responsible for the collapse of economies like Argentina or the Ukraine. the real meaty problems in Europe are the problems of the west be they EU or not EU most will be Britains problems for decades to come whatever the referendum decides.

No, but then my criticism of the EU isn't fiscal or economic (to a degree), it's mostly political. I have not once criticised Europe or the cohesion amongst European nations. I'm highly positive of the three biggest economies, each in the world top ten, could and should work together to ease the economic problems facing us all. I'm critical of the organisation of the EU itself, how it operates, how it passes laws and its incentives for our future, or rather their 'vision' of what should be our future. Europe can work together to remedy the world economic problems WITHOUT being tied in to a political union. That's what i feel a lot of sceptics of Eurosceptics fail to understand. We're EU sceptics, not European sceptics. Europe good, EU as a politically controlling organisation, bad.

But then how about this, is the EU responsible for the recovery of the British economy? We import more than we export to EU members. They need us. Critics of Westminster and British politicians do so with passionate fervour yet they say nothing about the European Parliament or MEP's as if they have some sort of free pass to exclude them from criticism. What is that all about?

 

[## SUPER KUN ##]

Well sadly the politicians we elect to power in the EU aren't responsible for making the laws. That's the commission's job. All they can do is ratify the proposals into law and to my knowledge I can't think of any they haven't willingly approved.

The EU is a political union, one we didn't want nor were we entitled to a say on its creation. We voted to join the EEC; we became an EU member through proxy and have since had the treaties of Amsterdam, Nice, Lisbon and Rome, none of which the British public have ever been consulted on or given a voice over being in favour or opposing. France, Holland and Ireland did and they all voted NO, but the treaties were ratified anyway after a few 'tweaks'. which was then not put to the public vote for a referendum because it was technically a 'new treaty' and they had all lobbied for a referendum on the OLD treaty, which they got.

This is democracy? The EU just wants as much money of the taxpayers of Europe as possible. At present members states civilians pay taxes towards their individual nation member state and the EU. The EU hates the concept of 'nation states' and is trying to blend us all together as 'Europeans', giving us a flag and an anthem to 'rally' behind in an attempt to invoke some notion of pride at being 'Europeans'. Well we're not Europeans, we're British, we're French, we're German, we're Spanish, we're Italian etcetera. We love our cultural diversity of nations in Europe, but the EU wants to do away with all that 'nonsense' so that there is no need to divide taxpayers money amongst the individual member states and just have ONE superstate in which it can gleam ALL the taxes to become a world 'superpower'.

Is that the future you want for Europe? Well you can count me out, and by the sounds of things on the continent, you can count out a fair few hundred million others.

We are not all British or Spanish though are we, we are Catalan, or Welsh or Scottish or Flemish or basque and we live in artificial borders be they UK or EU or even England. What is in the interests of London is no more allied to the interests of Washington than it is to the interests of Luxembourg. It is all artificial and yes some of the EU is nonsense, so is much of Westminster and what really matters is not arguing about which politician is in control but about how we solve the very real problems of sustaining an unsustainable economic model. That same problem exists in nearly all the west bar Norway and a few others.

We can sort that out one by one, globally or regionally but arguing about the eu and making that the big discussion is shifting deckchairs on the titanic .

You're being pedantic there; you understood the point I was making (and for the record, the EU wants to do away with those identities also). You can consider yourself to be whatever nationality, background or cultural heritage that you wish. That is the freedom you currently enjoy. The EU wants to replace that ideology with a simple 'you ARE European' one. It sounds vaguely similar to an organisation that existed for the majority of the 20th Century onwards but is now defunct. It's on the tip of my tongue...

The Euro has failed; that much is plain for anyone to see. Who would willingly join the EU now with its mountains of debt and economic uncertainty? Yet some are willing to hand over even more powers and taxes to these people? One goes down, they all go down, as it proved to be the case and now only Germany is keeping the EU's head above water (with a little help from additional demands made on British taxpayers) and as a result they've imposed austerity measures across the board to all the struggling EU economies; if they want Germany's money, they'd better conform to the German working ethic.

It's proved a highly controversial and unpopular measure in many countries, yet some believe its easier to blame the governments of those nations rather than the EU itself, which is exactly how the EU wants it. Look at what happened in Greece; the public revolted, government was changed and it mattered little because the Greeks had no control over the demands made by the EU for their debt crisis. You can blame the Greeks for getting themselves into that mess, but what was it that made it possible? The EU itself and all the 'benefits' it brought them. Shift the blame, reject your local governments, embrace the EU as the saviour of every issue affecting the people of Europe today. IS THAT A CIRCLE OF STARS ON THE FLAG OR A HALO?

A halo, more like a noose or a plughole ?

 

[denislawsbackheel]

personally I think we all pay far too much tax already

and don't get nearly enough back for it in return

and that is the fundamental problem that our society faces

too many people creaming off the top of the efforts of those who just try to get by and earn an honest living

the state is too big and too expensive and the EU is just yet another layer of bureaucratic expense that we don't need

so far we have subsidised their project by around 100 billion despite our ever increasing national debt

I can see no valid justification to continue with it personally

roll on the referendum that we have been denied for far too long

I suspect you are in for a great disappointment!

It won't happen.

 

[Balti]

personally I think we all pay far too much tax already

and don't get nearly enough back for it in return

and that is the fundamental problem that our society faces

too many people creaming off the top of the efforts of those who just try to get by and earn an honest living

the state is too big and too expensive and the EU is just yet another layer of bureaucratic expense that we don't need

so far we have subsidised their project by around 100 billion despite our ever increasing national debt

I can see no valid justification to continue with it personally

roll on the referendum that we have been denied for far too long

I suspect you are in for a great disappointment!

It won't happen.

and therein lies the problem

 

[EalingBlue2]

I guess my view overal is that the west has a huge problem - in fact the whole world does but in most parts basic healthcare and getting food is more important than worrying about the future.

The structural deficits that are the plague of the EU are mainly caused by sovereign governments in the first place, though being tied together shares the problem. But these problems are there in australia, the U.S., even Canada, Japan has 200% national debt to gdp, most are to put it mildly on a road to bankruptcy be they EU or not.

Essentially the sovereign states cannot afford long term to pay for close to what they do now in terms of services and funds to their populations without very significant tax hikes (which in themselves can stunt the economy and make capital flight) or without very significant cuts in services.

But the media has created a number of factors that make any sensible discussion on the future impossible. As they have convinced everyone we deserve better services and to pay less tax and that we should All be pursuing wealth and celebrity.

Now I am not sure about the UK but australia has a 10% long term structural deficit meaning a long term 10% cut in government spend or increase in tax. I would imagine the uk is worse it doesn't have the huge 10%! superannuation investment , the future fund etc and also as the economy is weaker, existing deficit is bigger and all the other factors such as population must make it harder.

So I accept the EU has big problems and isn't great, but the Westminster government hasn't and won't do any better and to be fair with the possible exception of oil rich Norway few countries are remotely doing a good job to prepare for the future !

Simply put worrying about the EU is worrying about the pence not the pounds it is getting all stressed of up of 1% of gdp when you have a 15% problem, or more simply put it isfiddling as Rome burns.

Focus needs to be on a dramatic reduction in expectations for people because of problems 10-20 years away which few politicians will address - as they care about tomorrows papers and getting elected in 3 years so they will only ever the short term decisions for short term outcomes the real issues are punted down the road!

There are also so many lies from all sides as different sides seek to blame, the wealthy, budgets, immigrants or whichever is their chosen group to blame for all our problems.

UKIP are the same as the rest they peddle half truths and blame a different group in the same way the other do and they in no way attempt To discuss the real issues and come up with real solutions anymore than Anyone else does.

You can't blame them for that if a prospective government came in and said look..... Our population is ageing, everyone wants to be wealthy and educated, healthcare is getting more and more sophisticated but more and more expensive and we can't offer what we can today and you will have to pay more for less then they wouldn't get elected so they all lie and everyone lives with the lie as really thinking about it is too hard.

Look at the U.S. the hero for many anti Europeans every year the U.S. just extends its credit card and at the moment as they can't afford not to the Chinese give the U.S. the new credit card. But China's economy will only grow so fast for so long and what happens when China can't extend the U.S. credit card.

there are two paths one a libertarian path where we look after number one and accept the poor just don't get educated very well, don't get much welfare (workhouses coming back) and don't get healthcare except very rudimentary health care. Or we accept lower standards of living and a far more Scandinavian socialist type system.

Big changes are needed far bigger than just the EU and the EU is honestly an irrelevance on the scale of it as the problems are global and not EU, so I just don't see the reality in blaming the EU and making it responsible for all our ills when whether it is good or bad it is actually pretty inconsequential.

But I accept it is far easier to blame the French and it is much more pleasant to believe there is an easy and quick solution to huge problems. Unfortunately the big issues will still be the same inside on outside the EU. The real positive about a divorce from the EU is that people will see All the same issues outside the marriage and will then maybe have no choice but to face up to them and take action in the same way the EU countries will have to and all the other countries like Us, Australia, Japan and even China will have to too.

 

[Balti]

no offence but I stopped reading at this line

''But the media has created a number of factors that make any sensible discussion on the future impossible. As they have convinced everyone we deserve better services and to pay less tax and that we should All be pursuing wealth and celebrity.''

wealth and celebrity!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

really? wow.....

most of us in the middle are just trying to pay the bills and struggling like fuck to do so while those that can afford it hire accountants to avoid paying what we have to and (some) others exploit the welfare state rules to ponce off us as well...

better services would be nice but not by paying even more tax

enough is enough

at this rate there will come a point where working as an employee is the least attractive option

 

[EalingBlue2]

no offence but I stopped reading at this line

''But the media has created a number of factors that make any sensible discussion on the future impossible. As they have convinced everyone we deserve better services and to pay less tax and that we should All be pursuing wealth and celebrity.''

wealth and celebrity!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

really? wow.....

most of us in the middle are just trying to pay the bills and struggling like fuck to do so while those that can afford it hire accountants to avoid paying what we have to and (some) others exploit the welfare state rules to ponce off us as well...

better services would be nice but not by paying even more tax

enough is enough

at this rate there will come a point where working as an employee is the least attractive option

balti at today's rates of tax services in 20 years will be 50% of what you are unhappy with today! Things are fucked and no one wants to talk about the reality. You are right that one of the biggest issues is tax avoidance something the UK led the world in creating and propagating much to the dismay of the EEC.

Don't worry there won't be bludgers for long as there won't be any money for benefits long term.

Sorry about the wealth and celebrity comment didn't really come across right, what I mean is people want things now and basics now means sky, internet, phones, flat screen tellys, cars etc and not what it meant 70 years ago when the economic system we have was in the main designed