United thread 2012/13 (inc merged IPO thread)

[Van Persies left peg]

OK

Don't agree with you about the City Utd game or Rooney. Yes he's faced sanctions, but he and Scholes get away with an awful lot every time I see them play. The Derby being a case in point. He should have been booked early on, and his celebration at the end was shall we say controversial - compare and contrast with Adebayor?

He's a great player. Utd's best by a long long way. But recall what Utd fans thought about him after he put in the transfer request. He has been compared to Tevez, but at least Tevez had a genuine dispute with mancini.

Ok you can argue he could have been booked early, but then surely i could argue Balotelli could have been for the foul on evans? Yaya toure for the blatant dive? what about Tevez kicking out at jones?? lets be totally fair here you cant single out 1 then blindly ignore the others because it suits your argument, on another day Rooney gets booked, so does Balotelli so does Toure, another day sees Tevez sent off and banned for 3 games, do we want to see games finishing 9 a-side? it was a derby, the players were fired up, the ref clearly like many do in such atmospheres took an early lenient approach to avoid it becoming a red card fest, surely we all prefer that stance? and come on Rooneys challenges were hardly leg breakers, he was a bit late on toure clear free kick little more and then he clipped was it silva? i cant remember but neither challenge was malicious and early in the game we see those waved away every week, you highlight it because of who it is be honest, if thats you at home to wigan or whoever you dont put as much emphasis on it, its human nature im the same.

As for the celebrations, right im going to say this and it probably wont go down well but here goes:

Imagine your Wayne Rooney for a second (just humour me for a moment ok :)) youve had vile abuse aimed at you for an hour and a half, coins and other various missles launched in your direction whenever youve gone to take a corner, chants about your family and outer football activity's and general disgust in your direction, your team scores a last minuted goal, your pumped up right? anyone would be, thousands of people have made a point of hurling tirades of abuse at you and this is your chance to stick 2 fingers back to them, i dont see anything wrong with that and if carlos tevez does the same at OT in front of the Stretford end ill come back on here and say the same, why shouldnt he do it? you say it provokes the crowd, surely the crowd have spent the last hour and a half provoking him? is it acceptable to call rooney a grannyshagging prick hurl coins at him and what not but not for him to celebrate in front of you given the chance?? is that not total hypocrisy? if your in the street and you walk up to another man and call him a wanker and throw missiles at him then he reacts are you then going to go to the police and complain? of course not, if you did youd be laughed at, see this is what annoys me about this, football fans are so bloody precious (not just you all fans of all teams) we think its perfectly acceptable to call players all the names under the sun throw things at them etc and then start crying when they give a little bit back, its laughable when you think about it, if your comfortable dishing it out then be prepared to take it back, if you cant then dont give it in the first place.

I dont expect you to agree with my points, we both look at things from totaly different angles, but at least youve actually debated the arguments ive put forward i appreciate that.

just regarding the jones/tevez incident....yes tevez could/shold have gone for that...however so could jones for the elbow/forearm to the face.....that wasnt a defneder just putting his body in the way....that was deliberate

and you cannot defend rooney im afraid. as good a player as he is, he gets away with the verbal abuse to referees and other officials every single week without fail. He could have had two yellow cards in the first half alone and didnt receive one until the challange on yaya toure...and if you want to talk about role models well.....yes tevez going on strike was bad...yes mario is a complete looney (but in a pretty harmless way compared to rooney who goes cheeating behind ihs wifes back with prostitues on top of his swearing down a camera lens being watched by millions of football fans (including children)...i know this was while playing for england and so Im not critical of ut for this...just the player who si a down right thug who gets away with an awful lot...Not because he is a utd player....butt he same reason John Terry gets away with so much...because he is an england player

Re the Tevez Jones incident thats my point, theres multiple ways every challenge can be interpreted and used as 'why wasnt that punished' arguments, and to be fair i wasnt intending to talk about role models at all, lovecity brought it up and i simply responded saying we all have twats in our teams but we love em regardless, theres no way anyone should start taking the moral high ground where footballers are concerned, anyone who uses a modern day footballer as a role model is asking for dissapointment.

As for Rooney, i was defending his celebrations that marvin asked me about in a previous post, in my opinion these players get vile provocation for 90 minutes so when they get a chance to give it back its fair game, dont be throwing a coin and abusing someone then go off crying when he celebrates and gives it back, ts hypocritical in the extreme, and yup if Tevez does the same as i said earlier ill say exactly the same, Gareth Bale actually did this at OT earlier in the season, scored and ran to the corner and goaded United fans, fair cop seeing as im sure he was being called a chimp faced cock for most of the match.

 

[Marvin]

I think Rooney is entitled to celebrate like that too, but the point about Rooney relates to special treatment

What would have happened had that been Balotelli? I guarantee you he would have been blamed for what followed. Rooney is one of those players, like Scholes and gerrard who referee games. He's always in the refs face as soon as there's any contentious foul from the opposition and demanding a yellow card / red

Rooney like his manager is allowed to get away with an awful lot. We are blind to our own and how others perceive them. That goes for us too

If it came to criticism of Chelsea / Arsenal etc we'd probably agree

 

[simon23]

Ok you can argue he could have been booked early, but then surely i could argue Balotelli could have been for the foul on evans? Yaya toure for the blatant dive? what about Tevez kicking out at jones?? lets be totally fair here you cant single out 1 then blindly ignore the others because it suits your argument, on another day Rooney gets booked, so does Balotelli so does Toure, another day sees Tevez sent off and banned for 3 games, do we want to see games finishing 9 a-side? it was a derby, the players were fired up, the ref clearly like many do in such atmospheres took an early lenient approach to avoid it becoming a red card fest, surely we all prefer that stance? and come on Rooneys challenges were hardly leg breakers, he was a bit late on toure clear free kick little more and then he clipped was it silva? i cant remember but neither challenge was malicious and early in the game we see those waved away every week, you highlight it because of who it is be honest, if thats you at home to wigan or whoever you dont put as much emphasis on it, its human nature im the same.

As for the celebrations, right im going to say this and it probably wont go down well but here goes:

Imagine your Wayne Rooney for a second (just humour me for a moment ok :)) youve had vile abuse aimed at you for an hour and a half, coins and other various missles launched in your direction whenever youve gone to take a corner, chants about your family and outer football activity's and general disgust in your direction, your team scores a last minuted goal, your pumped up right? anyone would be, thousands of people have made a point of hurling tirades of abuse at you and this is your chance to stick 2 fingers back to them, i dont see anything wrong with that and if carlos tevez does the same at OT in front of the Stretford end ill come back on here and say the same, why shouldnt he do it? you say it provokes the crowd, surely the crowd have spent the last hour and a half provoking him? is it acceptable to call rooney a grannyshagging prick hurl coins at him and what not but not for him to celebrate in front of you given the chance?? is that not total hypocrisy? if your in the street and you walk up to another man and call him a wanker and throw missiles at him then he reacts are you then going to go to the police and complain? of course not, if you did youd be laughed at, see this is what annoys me about this, football fans are so bloody precious (not just you all fans of all teams) we think its perfectly acceptable to call players all the names under the sun throw things at them etc and then start crying when they give a little bit back, its laughable when you think about it, if your comfortable dishing it out then be prepared to take it back, if you cant then dont give it in the first place.

I dont expect you to agree with my points, we both look at things from totaly different angles, but at least youve actually debated the arguments ive put forward i appreciate that.

just regarding the jones/tevez incident....yes tevez could/shold have gone for that...however so could jones for the elbow/forearm to the face.....that wasnt a defneder just putting his body in the way....that was deliberate

and you cannot defend rooney im afraid. as good a player as he is, he gets away with the verbal abuse to referees and other officials every single week without fail. He could have had two yellow cards in the first half alone and didnt receive one until the challange on yaya toure...and if you want to talk about role models well.....yes tevez going on strike was bad...yes mario is a complete looney (but in a pretty harmless way compared to rooney who goes cheeating behind ihs wifes back with prostitues on top of his swearing down a camera lens being watched by millions of football fans (including children)...i know this was while playing for england and so Im not critical of ut for this...just the player who si a down right thug who gets away with an awful lot...Not because he is a utd player....butt he same reason John Terry gets away with so much...because he is an england player

Re the Tevez Jones incident thats my point, theres multiple ways every challenge can be interpreted and used as 'why wasnt that punished' arguments, and to be fair i wasnt intending to talk about role models at all, lovecity brought it up and i simply responded saying we all have twats in our teams but we love em regardless, theres no way anyone should start taking the moral high ground where footballers are concerned, anyone who uses a modern day footballer as a role model is asking for dissapointment.

As for Rooney, i was defending his celebrations that marvin asked me about in a previous post, in my opinion these players get vile provocation for 90 minutes so when they get a chance to give it back its fair game, dont be throwing a coin and abusing someone then go off crying when he celebrates and gives it back, ts hypocritical in the extreme, and yup if Tevez does the same as i said earlier ill say exactly the same, Gareth Bale actually did this at OT earlier in the season, scored and ran to the corner and goaded United fans, fair cop seeing as im sure he was being called a chimp faced cock for most of the match.

ah fair enough on the first point and i agree footballers are no role models (besides the odd one here and their...eg..james milner and im sure there are a few others as well...but in general you are correct.

On the celebration but...i can again understand what you are saying but at the same time he has a responsibility not to rise to any of it (no matter what)....its the old media arguement...if people are going to put their lives on show then they are going to get intruded into...well unfortunately a footballer does a big part of his day to day job in full view of the paying public who pay to support their team and mock others (polite way of putting it!)....footballers get paid to put up with that abuse.......so he should (as others should) keep himself in check no matter what...he has a responsibility to and to entice a crowd could have led to serious injuries for both sets of fans

Oh and i would never ever defend the morons throwing coins or running on the pitch etc.....they should and hopefully will be banned for life...they have no part in our club whatsoever any more (or shuoldnt have anyway)...just like the idiots that did it to bellamy at OT a few seasons back<br /><br />-- Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:55 pm --<br /><br />

I think Rooney is entitled to celebrate like that too, but the point about Rooney relates to special treatment

What would have happened had that been Balotelli? I guarantee you he would have been blamed for what followed. Rooney is one of those players, like Scholes and gerrard who referee games. He's always in the refs face as soon as there's any contentious foul from the opposition and demanding a yellow card / red

Rooney like his manager is allowed to get away with an awful lot. We are blind to our own and how others perceive them. That goes for us too

If it came to criticism of Chelsea / Arsenal etc we'd probably agree

this is the exact problem i have with the likes of rooney and others....

and the contrast that would have been if it had been balotelli....there would have been calls for the death sentance to be returned or him deported from certain sky pundits and reporters from certain papers

 

[Van Persies left peg]

I think Rooney is entitled to celebrate like that too, but the point about Rooney relates to special treatment

What would have happened had that been Balotelli? I guarantee you he would have been blamed for what followed. Rooney is one of those players, like Scholes and gerrard who referee games. He's always in the refs face as soon as there's any contentious foul from the opposition and demanding a yellow card / red

Rooney like his manager is allowed to get away with an awful lot. We are blind to our own and how others perceive them. That goes for us too

If it came to criticism of Chelsea / Arsenal etc we'd probably agree

I think it works both ways with Rooney, i agree to an extent that because of who he is he at times gets away with stuff maybe others wouldnt i dont have a problem accepting that argument, the flip side to that is the media though and there definetly is 2 sides to this.

You cant deny that when Rooney does anything remotly newsworthy its blown up all over the papers, i remember the upton park incident where he swore into the camera, every single paper the next day had ''''BAN HIM 'DISGUSTING' DISGRACE etc headlines, the media love to make a story out of Rooney and have done many times when they patently wouldn't and dont when its a 'lesser name', i maintain to this day had the media not made such a big deal out of it and it hadn't been Wayne Rooney there wouldnt have been such a public outcry and subsequent 3 match ban, the number of times players have celebrated by swearing and making crude gestures torwards cameras fans etc and nothings been done for me shows this, but thats just my opinion and i accept you may disagree, but all we heard about for days after was that incident, skysports news had it at the top of every headline hour, MOTD were literally asking for the fa to take action, so whilst i will accept that on the field Rooney does get away with things others dont much like a lot of the higher profile players in truth thats the total opposite with the press, Rooney, like Gerrard like Tevez Balotelli etc is a story seller, put his name and some scandal on the back page and it sells.

As for Balotelli i agree, hes footballs bad boy right now isnt he, everyone loves to watch him purely in the hope he does something retarded, hes an easy target in that sense, i agree about that, i also think he dosnt help himself in that sense.

 

[Van Persies left peg]

just regarding the jones/tevez incident....yes tevez could/shold have gone for that...however so could jones for the elbow/forearm to the face.....that wasnt a defneder just putting his body in the way....that was deliberate

and you cannot defend rooney im afraid. as good a player as he is, he gets away with the verbal abuse to referees and other officials every single week without fail. He could have had two yellow cards in the first half alone and didnt receive one until the challange on yaya toure...and if you want to talk about role models well.....yes tevez going on strike was bad...yes mario is a complete looney (but in a pretty harmless way compared to rooney who goes cheeating behind ihs wifes back with prostitues on top of his swearing down a camera lens being watched by millions of football fans (including children)...i know this was while playing for england and so Im not critical of ut for this...just the player who si a down right thug who gets away with an awful lot...Not because he is a utd player....butt he same reason John Terry gets away with so much...because he is an england player

Re the Tevez Jones incident thats my point, theres multiple ways every challenge can be interpreted and used as 'why wasnt that punished' arguments, and to be fair i wasnt intending to talk about role models at all, lovecity brought it up and i simply responded saying we all have twats in our teams but we love em regardless, theres no way anyone should start taking the moral high ground where footballers are concerned, anyone who uses a modern day footballer as a role model is asking for dissapointment.

As for Rooney, i was defending his celebrations that marvin asked me about in a previous post, in my opinion these players get vile provocation for 90 minutes so when they get a chance to give it back its fair game, dont be throwing a coin and abusing someone then go off crying when he celebrates and gives it back, ts hypocritical in the extreme, and yup if Tevez does the same as i said earlier ill say exactly the same, Gareth Bale actually did this at OT earlier in the season, scored and ran to the corner and goaded United fans, fair cop seeing as im sure he was being called a chimp faced cock for most of the match.

ah fair enough on the first point and i agree footballers are no role models (besides the odd one here and their...eg..james milner and im sure there are a few others as well...but in general you are correct.

On the celebration but...i can again understand what you are saying but at the same time he has a responsibility not to rise to any of it (no matter what)....its the old media arguement...if people are going to put their lives on show then they are going to get intruded into...well unfortunately a footballer does a big part of his day to day job in full view of the paying public who pay to support their team and mock others (polite way of putting it!)....footballers get paid to put up with that abuse.......so he should (as others should) keep himself in check no matter what...he has a responsibility to and to entice a crowd could have led to serious injuries for both sets of fans

Oh and i would never ever defend the morons throwing coins or running on the pitch etc.....they should and hopefully will be banned for life...they have no part in our club whatsoever any more (or shuoldnt have anyway)...just like the idiots that did it to bellamy at OT a few seasons back

-- Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:55 pm --

I think Rooney is entitled to celebrate like that too, but the point about Rooney relates to special treatment

What would have happened had that been Balotelli? I guarantee you he would have been blamed for what followed. Rooney is one of those players, like Scholes and gerrard who referee games. He's always in the refs face as soon as there's any contentious foul from the opposition and demanding a yellow card / red

Rooney like his manager is allowed to get away with an awful lot. We are blind to our own and how others perceive them. That goes for us too

If it came to criticism of Chelsea / Arsenal etc we'd probably agree

this is the exact problem i have with the likes of rooney and others....

and the contrast that would have been if it had been balotelli....there would have been calls for the death sentance to be returned or him deported from certain sky pundits and reporters from certain papers

Yup i understand that argument and in an ideal world your totally right, players would simply blank out whats coming from the stands and get on with their job, after all they are being paid hundreds of thousands of pounds a week to be there so no ones going to cry over them getting a bit of abuse, what a shame im sure the money eases the pain, i get that.

But i also think you, me, anyone whos subjected to that level of hatred that level of personal abuse over a prolonged period of time has a breaking point, they have to their human, you can be as mild mannered and ice cold as anyone but sooner or later someone constantly provoking you and maybe taunting you about family members etc sooner or later it gets to you and you need a release, for a footballer thats celebrating, giving it back and a wave of emotion, thats the only way a footballer can give it back, they cant pick up things and launch them into the crowd, they cant turn around and throw verbals back, they cant do anything like this so what they do is rub it in via celebration, and tbh from my point of view i think its fair game, and if i were in the same situation id probably do the same, ask youself, a big city fan, a huge lover of the club, youve just scored a winning goal against United in front of a packed OT having been pelted both verbally and physically for an hour and a half by people you cant stand whove made it perfectly clear they utterly despise you, can you honestly say you wouldnt in that split second want to give them all a big fuck you!? ill be honest i would.

 

[Marvin]

Re the Tevez Jones incident thats my point, theres multiple ways every challenge can be interpreted and used as 'why wasnt that punished' arguments, and to be fair i wasnt intending to talk about role models at all, lovecity brought it up and i simply responded saying we all have twats in our teams but we love em regardless, theres no way anyone should start taking the moral high ground where footballers are concerned, anyone who uses a modern day footballer as a role model is asking for dissapointment.

As for Rooney, i was defending his celebrations that marvin asked me about in a previous post, in my opinion these players get vile provocation for 90 minutes so when they get a chance to give it back its fair game, dont be throwing a coin and abusing someone then go off crying when he celebrates and gives it back, ts hypocritical in the extreme, and yup if Tevez does the same as i said earlier ill say exactly the same, Gareth Bale actually did this at OT earlier in the season, scored and ran to the corner and goaded United fans, fair cop seeing as im sure he was being called a chimp faced cock for most of the match.

ah fair enough on the first point and i agree footballers are no role models (besides the odd one here and their...eg..james milner and im sure there are a few others as well...but in general you are correct.

On the celebration but...i can again understand what you are saying but at the same time he has a responsibility not to rise to any of it (no matter what)....its the old media arguement...if people are going to put their lives on show then they are going to get intruded into...well unfortunately a footballer does a big part of his day to day job in full view of the paying public who pay to support their team and mock others (polite way of putting it!)....footballers get paid to put up with that abuse.......so he should (as others should) keep himself in check no matter what...he has a responsibility to and to entice a crowd could have led to serious injuries for both sets of fans

Oh and i would never ever defend the morons throwing coins or running on the pitch etc.....they should and hopefully will be banned for life...they have no part in our club whatsoever any more (or shuoldnt have anyway)...just like the idiots that did it to bellamy at OT a few seasons back

-- Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:55 pm --

I think Rooney is entitled to celebrate like that too, but the point about Rooney relates to special treatment

What would have happened had that been Balotelli? I guarantee you he would have been blamed for what followed. Rooney is one of those players, like Scholes and gerrard who referee games. He's always in the refs face as soon as there's any contentious foul from the opposition and demanding a yellow card / red

Rooney like his manager is allowed to get away with an awful lot. We are blind to our own and how others perceive them. That goes for us too

If it came to criticism of Chelsea / Arsenal etc we'd probably agree

this is the exact problem i have with the likes of rooney and others....

and the contrast that would have been if it had been balotelli....there would have been calls for the death sentance to be returned or him deported from certain sky pundits and reporters from certain papers

Yup i understand that argument and in an ideal world your totally right, players would simply blank out whats coming from the stands and get on with their job, after all they are being paid hundreds of thousands of pounds a week to be there so no ones going to cry over them getting a bit of abuse, what a shame im sure the money eases the pain, i get that.

But i also think you, me, anyone whos subjected to that level of hatred that level of personal abuse over a prolonged period of time has a breaking point, they have to their human, you can be as mild mannered and ice cold as anyone but sooner or later someone constantly provoking you and maybe taunting you about family members etc sooner or later it gets to you and you need a release, for a footballer thats celebrating, giving it back and a wave of emotion, thats the only way a footballer can give it back, they cant pick up things and launch them into the crowd, they cant turn around and throw verbals back, they cant do anything like this so what they do is rub it in via celebration, and tbh from my point of view i think its fair game, and if i were in the same situation id probably do the same, ask youself, a big city fan, a huge lover of the club, youve just scored a winning goal against United in front of a packed OT having been pelted both verbally and physically for an hour and a half by people you cant stand whove made it perfectly clear they utterly despise you, can you honestly say you wouldnt in that split second want to give them all a big fuck you!? ill be honest i would.

Yes but that's not the pint we're making and haven't been for some time....the point is that is the different treatment meted out to different players. That was the original point about Rooney. He gets away with "infringements" others would not

 

[Van Persies left peg]

ah fair enough on the first point and i agree footballers are no role models (besides the odd one here and their...eg..james milner and im sure there are a few others as well...but in general you are correct.

On the celebration but...i can again understand what you are saying but at the same time he has a responsibility not to rise to any of it (no matter what)....its the old media arguement...if people are going to put their lives on show then they are going to get intruded into...well unfortunately a footballer does a big part of his day to day job in full view of the paying public who pay to support their team and mock others (polite way of putting it!)....footballers get paid to put up with that abuse.......so he should (as others should) keep himself in check no matter what...he has a responsibility to and to entice a crowd could have led to serious injuries for both sets of fans

Oh and i would never ever defend the morons throwing coins or running on the pitch etc.....they should and hopefully will be banned for life...they have no part in our club whatsoever any more (or shuoldnt have anyway)...just like the idiots that did it to bellamy at OT a few seasons back

-- Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:55 pm --




this is the exact problem i have with the likes of rooney and others....

and the contrast that would have been if it had been balotelli....there would have been calls for the death sentance to be returned or him deported from certain sky pundits and reporters from certain papers

Yup i understand that argument and in an ideal world your totally right, players would simply blank out whats coming from the stands and get on with their job, after all they are being paid hundreds of thousands of pounds a week to be there so no ones going to cry over them getting a bit of abuse, what a shame im sure the money eases the pain, i get that.

But i also think you, me, anyone whos subjected to that level of hatred that level of personal abuse over a prolonged period of time has a breaking point, they have to their human, you can be as mild mannered and ice cold as anyone but sooner or later someone constantly provoking you and maybe taunting you about family members etc sooner or later it gets to you and you need a release, for a footballer thats celebrating, giving it back and a wave of emotion, thats the only way a footballer can give it back, they cant pick up things and launch them into the crowd, they cant turn around and throw verbals back, they cant do anything like this so what they do is rub it in via celebration, and tbh from my point of view i think its fair game, and if i were in the same situation id probably do the same, ask youself, a big city fan, a huge lover of the club, youve just scored a winning goal against United in front of a packed OT having been pelted both verbally and physically for an hour and a half by people you cant stand whove made it perfectly clear they utterly despise you, can you honestly say you wouldnt in that split second want to give them all a big fuck you!? ill be honest i would.

Yes but that's not the pint we're making and haven't been for some time....the point is that is the different treatment meted out to different players. That was the original point about Rooney. He gets away with "infringements" others would not

I did respond to that in the post above the one you quoted. :)

 

[Marvin]

Did you? No offence but I can't be bothered now

Thanks for the discussion anyway

 

[Van Persies left peg]

Did you? No offence but I can't be bothered now

Thanks for the discussion anyway

Fair enough :)

And no worries i enjoyed it, one of the perks to being an 'outsider' on a forum, plenty of topics to debate with people who will naturally have a different view.

 

[Blootoof]

She's lost some weight then

It has. Can't say the same about the one in front though.