United Thread - 2022/23

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GoatersLeftShin said:
This, more than anything else, explains their downfall.

Fergie was getting on and they should've handled him leaving far better. In fact, it's hard to think of a worse way to do it. The new man should've come in and worked with him and got to know the culture of the club. This was a fairly unique club in that he ran the place, top to toe whereas everyone now had Directors of Football etc in place.

Moyes came in and got rid of many of their staff and brought in his own men. I can understand why he would want his own men in, but he should've kept them on for their experience. It really showed his naievity, he wasn't a Mourinho/Guardiola/Ancelotti who had a track record of success. At this point now, the 'Fergie United' had gone and by the time van Gaal had got rid of Vidic, Ferdinand, Evra, Welbeck, Evans, Hernandez etc it makes you wonder if there was any part of it left. Other than the pisscan turning up to see them get beat and booed at home, his dynasty had completely gone.

Mourinho's character and style was well known and he did well there. His style of football was at odds with van Gaal, Moyes and Fergies. He came and went then Ole comes in who's counter attacking, looser style of play was again at odds with Mourinho's style. Ten Haag wants to play like us, but he's got a squad of players who aren't suited to his style.

Contrast that with us and Pep. When he came in, half the squad could adapt to his style and the players who couldn't went fast and were replaced by ones who played his style. The club now is the best run club in world football. When Pep goes, the next manager who comes in won't be Simeone etc it will be someone who plays the way that Pep, Soriano and Bergistrain play. I really don't understand why they aren't trying to copy what we do!
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I have a slightly different take on one aspect of this, though I agree with most of it especially the part about Pep. Ferguson had no interest in training anyone new or ensuring that the club continued his “legacy.” Because it was HIS legacy, not UNITED’S. This is how megalomaniacal authoritarian leaders operate (especially CEO/founders). I’ve brought this up a number of times — read what he’s said to Harvard Business School about the eight tenets of leadership. One of them is “Complete Control” — which is insane in my view as a management tenet, but look what it got him. How does ensuring the club is successful after him help his legacy? It doesn’t — because in his mind, the reason United was successful was HIM. In fact, their lack of success burnishes his personal legacy.

Because the Glazers (who know nothing of football) were absolutely going to refuse to allow the dictates of football people to impact the commercial aspects they LBO’d the club for, they were never nor are ever going to give “complete control” to another manager again. I agree with whomever said they want “company men.” Mourinho was a desperation panic gambit after two failures which, after that failed, has only firmed their resolve to employ managers who will not act out of line with the club’s commercial goals.

Only now, based on my admittedly cursory reading of their financial filings, they are going to be up against it possibly if they fail to finish in a CL spot two years in a row. That impacts both the payout on the Adidas deal (which ends in 2025 anyhow) and, more concerning, their debt covenants in terms of how much they can borrow on their revolver (I think — it might be the terms on their senior notes, or maybe it’s the interest rate on the revolver). I think they have some flexibility to waive EBITDA-related covenants too but no matter — if they don’t make CL for next season, they’ll be dealing with some potential financial issues they haven’t had to consider before.

IMO this is just the beginning of a stormy period for them. They might right the ship but this could also get a lot worse, financially.

I’d still bet the Glazers put their stakes in the club on the block if it looks like they might trip covenants and maybe before the Adidas deal expires (it’s 750M accounted for over 10 years — not a small percent of their revenue annually). For the first time I believe it might happen sooner rather than later.
 
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GoatersLeftShin said:
He was a good player before he went to United. As soon as he got there, he career ended and Maguire is in the same boat.
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Old Trafford is a graveyard for good players, Pogba, Alexis Sanchez, plenty more examples (and more to come). Whilst city makes good players better. This is main reason for their recruitment issue, it is not just Champion League qualification. Why would a great player want to become a worst one? The only reason is bit of extra money.
 
FogBlueInSanFran said:
I have a slightly different take on one aspect of this, though I agree with most of it especially the part about Pep. Ferguson had no interest in training anyone new or ensuring that the club continued his “legacy.” Because it was HIS legacy, not UNITED’S. This is how megalomaniacal authoritarian leaders operate (especially CEO/founders). I’ve brought this up a number of times — read what he’s said to Harvard Business School about the eight tenets of leadership. One of them is “Complete Control” — which is insane in my view as a management tenet, but look what it got him. How does ensuring the club is successful after him help his legacy? It doesn’t — because in his mind, the reason United was successful was HIM. In fact, their lack of success burnishes his personal legacy.

Because the Glazers (who know nothing of football) were absolutely going to refuse to allow the dictates of football people to impact the commercial aspects they LBO’d the club for, they were never nor are ever going to give “complete control” to another manager again. I agree with whomever said they want “company men.” Mourinho was a desperation panic gambit after two failures which, after that failed, has only firmed their resolve to employ managers who will not act out of line with the club’s commercial goals.

Only now, based on my admittedly cursory reading of their financial filings, they are going to be up against it possibly if they fail to finish in a CL spot two years in a row. That impacts both the payout on the Adidas deal (which ends in 2025 anyhow) and, more concerning, their debt covenants in terms of how much they can borrow on their revolver (I think — it might be the terms on their senior notes, or maybe it’s the interest rate on the revolver). I think they have some flexibility to waive EBITDA-related covenants too but no matter — if they don’t make CL for next season, they’ll be dealing with some potential financial issues they haven’t had to consider before.

IMO this is just the beginning of a stormy period for them. They might right the ship but this could also get a lot worse, financially.

I’d still bet the Glazers put their stakes in the club on the block if it looks like they might trip covenants and maybe before the Adidas deal expires (it’s 750M accounted for over 10 years — not a small percent of their revenue annually). For the first time I believe it might happen sooner rather than later.
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Really good points them Foggy, he definitely was a "complete control" kind of dictator wasn't he!

He was also a remnant from a time gone by too though, when all managers ran the clubs from top to toe. In the 80s, English clubs were run the same way they probably were in the 1920s - manager ran everything. It was only as the foreign managers came in that we saw the structure of clubs change and job titles change. He got lucky that he was never had to work with DoFs etc because he had the money, the birth of the PL and he won trophies. He ran it all. Strangely, the club never saw that as a problem though but it became absolutely apparent as soon as he left what a mess the club was in. That's why Moyes shouldn't have been allowed to bring his own men in, at the expense of Fergies. You wouldn't go into Barclays Bank and sack the team below the board who've worked there for years would you?

I completely agree about the financials though. They are now going to realise how hard it was for Everton, Spurs, City, Leicester etc to get into the CL without spending a LOT of money with the right manager. It's a matter of time now till someone like Arsenal/Spurs/Chelsea/Liverpool or us put in a bid for their players and that player will leave because they need to play CL football. They aren't the team they once were. It's now 10 years since they last won the league and I can't see them winning it for another 10 at the minute.

Anyone can spend money but only the right manager will get you there. At this moment, Ten Haag looks like a shocking gamble. He's going to have to earn his money, rapid. I don't remember a manager at a 'top club' getting off to such a bad, bad start as this. It's almost as if the players think he is a bigger bell end than Rangnick!

Anyone who watched that yesterday couldn't help but be reminded of us in the 90s. At least we usually had some hope after a couple of games mind!
 
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