US Politics Thread

[Mr Kobayashi]

Don’t put words in my mouth. It was NOT commonly said that gay people were mentally ill. I go back to 1950s campaigns.

Who inserted the word common? The same arguments were made about homosexuals, it's well documented, because there were all sorts of experiments to "correct the illness".

You replied with a one word response.

 

[SkyBlueFlux]

Well a fair few people have lost their jobs by referring to a man as a man or woman as woman

Rise in people identifying as trans has increased 4000% in last couple of years, these people aren’t all suddenly trans it’s a social contagion and leading to young people having irreversible operations,

So for me not being allowed to state these facts and maybe getting these people the necessary help and support is leading to great amounts of harm

Do people not know what a fact is these days? This is not at all scientific fact in any sense of the word. What you mean by a “man is a man” is actually “my idea of what a man is, is a man” and these two things are not at all the same thing.

What you’ve stated is not an argument on facts, it’s one of semantics. It’s like me saying “a hotdog is a sandwich” is a fact and insisting on it. What I’m saying is “this hotdog fits my criteria for a sandwich” but my wife is going to disagree with me. Language and communication is not a fixed space.

This is totally regardless of whether or not you believe the science behind gender ambiguity which is a whole separate argument. You are arguing that your categorisation is somehow inherently “the true” categorisation like the mathematics of the universe, and it is not, semantic categories are man-made things. Other societies have three or more gender categories. What do you do then? Who’s is the correct one now?

If what you’re actually saying is that “I should be allowed to categorise people however I want, and insist they fit into my box of what I consider to be X” then well… we’ve seen how unhelpful that shit is to society and I don’t want anything to do with it.

 

[mrbelfry]

Do people not know what a fact is these days? This is not at all scientific fact in any sense of the word. What you mean by a “man is a man” is actually “my idea of what a man is, is a man” and these two things are not at all the same thing.

What you’ve stated is not an argument on facts, it’s one of semantics. It’s like me saying “a hotdog is a sandwich” is a fact and insisting on it. What I’m saying is “this hotdog fits my criteria for a sandwich” but my wife is going to disagree with me. Language and communication is not a fixed space.

This is totally regardless of whether or not you believe the science behind gender ambiguity which is a whole separate argument. You are arguing that your categorisation is somehow inherently “the true” categorisation like the mathematics of the universe, and it is not, semantic categories are man-made things. Other societies have three or more gender categories. What do you do then? Who’s is the correct one now?

If what you’re actually saying is that “I should be allowed to categorise people however I want, and insist they fit into my box of what I consider to be X” then well… we’ve seen how unhelpful that shit is to society and I don’t want anything to do with it.

Regardless of semantics it's still a hotdog and not a donut

 

[SkyBlueFlux]

Regardless of semantics it's still a hotdog and not a donut

I hate to break it to you, but some people have both.

What we choose to call things is fundamentally arbitrary.

 

[KS55]

Who inserted the word common? The same arguments were made about homosexuals, it's well documented, because there were all sorts of experiments to "correct the illness".

You replied with a one word response.

Sophistry. If you say “this was said a generation ago” you can’t mean one person said it. By definition it means that many did, thus common, so don’t try to be a clever dick…..you don’t know enough about this subject, just musings. Neither do I which is why I don’t participate. Apparently I am gender critical for supporting a woman’s trade union rights in a previous post about the TUC. YCNMIU.

 

[mrbelfry]

I hate to break it to you, but some people have both.

What we choose to call things is fundamentally arbitrary.

Hotdog for mains. Donut for desert

I'm going to express this very poorly because I don't have the language skills (possibly proving your point). Whatever I choose to call a hotdog has a physical representation in reality. If I called it a banana I haven't changed the physical reality of the hotdog I've just called it a banana and muddied the water a little bit because there is already a physical thing people refer to as a banana (or the equivalent word in whatever language they choose to use)

 

[mrbelfry]

I hate to break it to you, but some people have both.

What we choose to call things is fundamentally arbitrary.

Also some intersex people (assuming that's who are you referring to) still adopt the male and female binary

 

[mexico1970]

I hate to break it to you, but some people have both.

What we choose to call things is fundamentally arbitrary.

We are talking about an exception to the rule here, even then there are only two sexes to choose from. They are not waking up one morning thinking they are something other than what they are in reality.

If you're a Glen but want to be called Glenda then that's fine, just don't expect other people to join in on your delusion.

 

[SkyBlueFlux]

We are talking about an exception to the rule here, even then there are only two sexes to choose from. They are not waking up one morning thinking they are something other than what they are in reality.

If you're a Glen but want to be called Glenda then that's fine, just don't expect other people to join in on your delusion.

I’m not making an argument here on the merits of that. It’s a whole different debate.

My point is that the OP was asked to name an example where somebody stating a fact got somebody fired. The example he stated is by definition not a fact. It’s a linguistic disagreement over how we choose to define things and what we call them. This is a man-made difference of opinion. It’s not like getting fired because you said the Earth is orbiting the sun.

 

[mexico1970]

I’m not making an argument here on the merits of that. It’s a whole different debate.

My point is that the OP was asked to name an example where somebody stating a fact got somebody fired. The example he stated is by definition not a fact. It’s a linguistic disagreement over how we choose to define things and what we call them. This is a man-made difference of opinion. It’s not like getting fired because you said the Earth is orbiting the sun.

That is really what I just posted, the difference being that if someone is delusional it doesn't mean everyone else has to join in with that delusion.

Being sacked for not using a students pronouns falls under that argument doesn't it? I know it isn't common place but Kevin Lister was fired wasn't he?

Wiltshire teacher fired for not using preferred pronouns, tribunal told

Kevin Lister has taken New College Swindon to an employment tribunal, claiming unfair dismissal.

www.bbc.co.uk

You shouldn't ignore reality by being courteous IMO.