US Politics Thread

[Gareth Barry Conlon]

With regard to Trump's mishandling of classified documents - one has to wonder WTF is going on at the National Archives? How is it even possible that they don't know exactly what documents Trump refused to turn over?

I used to work in the nuclear industry in the USA. Due to concerns for safety and the need to ensure that all engineers were working against the most up-to-date revision of documents including all the latest field and other changes - document control was exceedingly strict. To get a document you had to check it out. And once in possession you would automatically receive all updates, until such time as you turned the document back in.

The point being, in the nuclear industry, Document Control knows exactly who has copies of safety-related documents at all times.

The US National Archives seems to have - IMO - a huge, huge, document control problem. Not knowing who has "checked out" a copy of a controlled document - even if that person is the President of the United States - is a grave mistake.

Those empty folders marked "classified" discovered at Mar-a-Lago and the fact that National Archives is concerned but unsure about what may be missing - is frankly unacceptable.

Legislation clearly needs to be passed to ensure that all classified documents are tracked.

Yes, illegal copies of classified documents might be made and that's much harder to discern. But, for example, if it should come to light that secrets unique to a document were revealed to an adversary, then proper document control will reveal just who had access to the leaked information.

I think the answer here is that the systems were breaking down in the Trump white house. That puts others at risk as there will be officials who's job description was to follow the protocol. No doubt they are reviewing all of this now.

>> Nothing stops them arresting and charging him now.
The DOJ will not act until after the midterms. No chance at all of him being charged now.

Moreover, on what bases will charges be brought? My understanding is that any evidence gathered so far is in limbo - as it might be ruled inadmissible under "executive privilege" by the special master. My understanding is that there's an injunction to this very effect - no go on the docs until after special master review (inexplicably a national safety damage assessment might occur meanwhile according to the ruling but legal analysists seem to be unclear as to how this would occur).

I'm not a lawyer, but I've been paying close attention to reports on this matter. I've found no one at all other than far right leaning pundits claiming that the current ruling is a "side show" at all.

Yes and no. The docs seized may well be held subject to this ruling and cant be displayed / used in court. But the DOJ know categorically what was found and that docs that belong to the government and were subject to various levels of classification were found. Therefore their was a clear cut breach of the law - criminal law and he can be arrested and charged. They could have done it on the day of the raid or the weeks that followed. But clearly they are still gathering evidence and the delay suits them. This may link in to the above but also looking to work out the motive, if they can link it to other more serious crimes then they will.

 

[Trevor Morley's Tache]

I think the answer here is that the systems were breaking down in the Trump white house. That puts others at risk as there will be officials who's job description was to follow the protocol. No doubt they are reviewing all of this now.

Yes and no. The docs seized may well be held subject to this ruling and cant be displayed / used in court. But the DOJ know categorically what was found and that docs that belong to the government and were subject to various levels of classification were found. Therefore their was a clear cut breach of the law - criminal law and he can be arrested and charged. They could have done it on the day of the raid or the weeks that followed. But clearly they are still gathering evidence and the delay suits them. This may link in to the above but also looking to work out the motive, if they can link it to other more serious crimes then they will.

They need to stop with this 'unprecedented' bullshit and just arrest him. He's a criminal and if he'd been anyone else he would already be in prison awaiting trial.

 

[BlueMoonAcrossThePond]

They need to stop with this 'unprecedented' bullshit and just arrest him. He's a criminal and if he'd been anyone else he would already be in prison awaiting trial.

Agree with you on this, 100%.

As for stopping the 'unpresented' bullshit it's salient to note that the judge who issued the injunction is a Trump appointee. It's another indication that Democracy is under assault in the USA.

 

[Gareth Barry Conlon]

Agree with you on this, 100%.

As for stopping the 'unpresented' bullshit it's salient to note that the judge who issued the injunction is a Trump appointee. It's another indication that Democracy is under assault in the USA.

BTW - do you know just how hard it is to remove corrupt Appeals Court judges? Fucking Aileen Campbell is free to rule however the fuck she wants until she the day she dies.

I also agree - teh delays just add to the feeling its not serious enough or that he somehow gets a pass. I think they should have been ready and if they found what they did they should have arrested him same day or next day. They have a clear cut crime now. No need to build a huge case, just get him convicted on one thing and then let the walls fall in on him.

 

[BlueMoonAcrossThePond]

I think the answer here is that the systems were breaking down in the Trump white house. That puts others at risk as there will be officials who's job description was to follow the protocol. No doubt they are reviewing all of this now.

Perhaps so.

But, IMO, the seeming lack of document control at the National Archives should be a major headline issue. I've encountered nothing whatsoever on this topic while browsing the web and reading my usual news sources. By way of analogy once more - Brown's Ferry is on fire - and NRC is doing nothing in response.

 

[Trevor Morley's Tache]

I'm no lawyer - but isn't the following a fair analogy?

Person X is suspected of dealing drugs. A search warrant is approved. Cops bust in and a bunch of drugs are found.

Then, X's lawyers appeal. There's a possible technicality involved - those drugs might actually be A-OK because - beat's me? - he's holding onto them for religious reasons (a full-of-shit supposition but bear with me - and isn't this the same sort of supposition we're dealing with in Trump's case?)

And then guess what - a friend of X who happens to be a judge, draws the case. She rules in favor of X. Drugs inadmissible for now - pending a review of a religious expert to rule on grounds of religious exemption (again made up - but the parallel is accurate).

Can the DA proceed with charges against X? With zero evidence?

And so too with Trump? On what grounds can charges now be brought even if the DOJ were so inclined to bring them right now or after the midterms, seeing as there's an injunction against using the documents found (I'm not a lawyer - I repeat - but it's my understanding that documents seized in the search warrant are off limits due to the injunction pending review of a special master)?

The documents were found in the same place as Trump's passport(s), which although circumstantial is a very good indicator that Trump was fully conversant with the documents being in the location they were found.

Trump has not indicated formally that he intends to seek the Republican Party nomination for the 2024 election, and for all intents and purposes is a private citizen.

We don't know (for obvious reasons) the source of the information which led to the search warrant. DoJ could have been handed CCTV footage, or legally obtained voice recordings which directly connect Trump to efforts to deceive law enforcement as to the existence and location of the classified document his lawyer attested they didn't have.

For all we know they have him bang to rights, but are reluctant to do anything because it is totally 'unprecedented', which is typically American in that if something isn't written down somewhere or their isn't a laid down procedure for doing something then the answer is typically 'No' or 'Do nothing'.

 

[BlueMoonAcrossThePond]

The documents were found in the same place as Trump's passport(s), which although circumstantial is a very good indicator that Trump was fully conversant with the documents being in the location they were found.

Trump has not indicated formally that he intends to seek the Republican Party nomination for the 2024 election, and for all intents and purposes is a private citizen.

We don't know (for obvious reasons) the source of the information which led to the search warrant. DoJ could have been handed CCTV footage, or legally obtained voice recordings which directly connect Trump to efforts to deceive law enforcement as to the existence and location of the classified document his lawyer attested they didn't have.

For all we know they have him bang to rights, but are reluctant to do anything because it is totally 'unprecedented', which is typically American in that if something isn't written down somewhere or their isn't a laid down procedure for doing something then the answer is typically 'No' or 'Do nothing'.

The only reason that Trump wasn't immediately charged following the Mar-a-Lago search is because of the standing DOJ memorandum recommending against any action which may influence the outcome of an election within 60 days of the action.

The reason that the DOJ even raided Mar-a-Lago in the first place given the proximity to the midterms - even if a bit outside the 60-day window - is that national secrets were so at risk of imminent possible exposure to adversaries and to other unauthorized individuals - that for the sake of national security - the search of Mar-a-Lago had to be conducted immediately. Top secret documents had to be immediately secured.

As for having Trump dead-to-rights - it's obvious that he's guilty and he would have been charged already aside from the memorandum and of course, the extremely high profile nature of the case - if you shoot at the king, you'd better fucking not miss! The 60-day memorandum coupled with the desire to cross every T and dot every I came to his rescue. And now, a corrupt judge has pushed the matter down the road even further.

I don't think that the DOJ will proceed with a case against Trump unless; 1) the evidenced against him is overwhelming obvious and; 2) consequences-be-damned, charges must be brought otherwise the entire legal system collapses.

Both 1 and 2 are now true, and if at all possible, the DOJ will - IMO - charge Trump outside the 60-day memorandum window following the midterms. But they'll need clearance to use the seized documents as evidence in order to proceed; as without which, they have no basis for charges.

 

[Trevor Morley's Tache]

The only reason that Trump wasn't immediately charged following the Mar-a-Lago search is because of the standing DOJ memorandum recommending against any action which may influence the outcome of an election within 60 days of the action.

The only reason that the DOJ even raided Mar-a-Lago in the first place given the proximity to the midterms - even if outside the 60-day window - is that national secrets were so at risk of imminent possible exposure to adversaries and other to unauthorized individuals - that for the sake of national security - the search of Mar-a-Lago had to be conducted immediately.

As for having Trump dead-to-rights - it's obvious that he's guilty and he would have been charged already aside from the memorandum. The 60-day memorandum came to his rescue. And now, a corrupt judge has pushed the matter down the road even further.

I don't think that the DOJ will proceed with a case against Trump unless; 1) the evidenced against him is overwhelming and 2) consequences-be-damned, charges must be brought otherwise the entire legal system collapses.

Both 1 and 2 are now true, IMO, and if at all possible, the DOJ will - IMO - charge Trump outside the 60-day memorandum window following the midterms. But they'll need clearance to use the seized documents as evidence in order to proceed; as without which, they have no basis for charges.

I agree with most of that except the last bit. DoJ may have other evidence such as tape recordings, CCTV footage and witness testimony that are not part of the court ruling on the seized documents.

 

[Gareth Barry Conlon]

the seeming lack of document control at the National Archives should be a major headline issue. I've encountered nothing whatsoever on this topic while browsing the web and reading my usual news sources.

This all comes down to the Trumo whitehouse operation and his staff. Once those people are given teh clearence then they have access and its outside the control of others if they follow the protocol. Its a clear cut example of why Trump and his 'picks' for top jobs were not suitable.

The documents were found in the same place as Trump's passport(s), which although circumstantial is a very good indicator that Trump was fully conversant with the documents being in the location they were found.

A gift for the prosecution. Trunmps only good defence is that his staff did all this and he had no clue. They have him stitched up with legal statements from his lawyers denying holding anything and now his passport found with the docs. All stuff a jury will take note of.

 

[BlueMoonAcrossThePond]

This all comes down to the Trumo whitehouse operation and his staff. Once those people are given teh clearence then they have access and its outside the control of others if they follow the protocol. Its a clear cut example of why Trump and his 'picks' for top jobs were not suitable.

On the surface of things, Gaudion M, I think it's much worse than Trump or his aides or whomever not following protocol.

IMO, there is no adequate protocol in place for tracking secret documents under the jurisdiction of the National Archives. To wit - they seem to have no clue whatsoever with regard to documents that Trump took to Mar-a-Lago and may or may not have returned. At all! How is that even possible?! And why isn't this a major headline news story?