US Politics Thread

[Gareth Barry Conlon]

But they'll need clearance to use the seized documents as evidence in order to proceed; as without which, they have no basis for charges.

The only thing the Special Master will do is confirm some docs have attorney / client previlage and the process of doing it will delay.

The nature of the incriminating docs means they can't have client attorney previllage. There is no way that a document effectiveky stolen from the government can be given attorney client previlage as he would have to have a right to own it and share it with his attorney in relation to some legal matter. That can not apply here.

 

[Trevor Morley's Tache]

This all comes down to the Trump White House operation and his staff. Once those people are given the clearance then they have access and its outside the control of others if they follow the protocol. Its a clear cut example of why Trump and his 'picks' for top jobs were not suitable.


A gift for the prosecution. Trumps only good defence is that his staff did all this and he had no clue. They have him stitched up with legal statements from his lawyers denying holding anything and now his passport found with the docs. All stuff a jury will take note of.

Not even sure if Jared Kushner was ever 'officially' granted a clearance? Given whet we know about him there is no way on the planet he 'should' have been granted one, nor should Trump as they had too many instances of people having financial leverage over them which is a MASSIVE red flag for security services.

 

[Gareth Barry Conlon]

On the surface of things, Gaudion M, I think it's much worse than not following protocol.

IMO, there is no adequate protocol in place for tracking secret documents under the jurisdiction of the National Archives. To wit - they've no fucking clue what Trump may or may not have returned. At all.

There must be some process - all POTUS will have these papers. The Obama admin would have had something in place and the Trump team just didnt do it. At some point you have to trust the officials - Trumps top team were entitled to access this stuff but also had the duty to keep the controls active.

 

[Trevor Morley's Tache]

There must be some process - all POTUS will have these papers. The Obama admin would have had something in place and the Trump team just didnt do it. At some point you have to trust the officials - Trumps top team were entitled to access this stuff but also had the duty to keep the controls active.

The controls being a 'Protected Document Register (PDR)'.

EVERY single document and media device (HDD/CD/DVD/USB Stick), Secret and above is registered upon creation in PDR. The PDR contains the document title, reference number, classification, date of creation, date to be declassified and any other relevant information. That information is duplicated on the document cover sheet. Those PDR's are (or should be) checked regularly, and in the case of TS and higher, daily. A PDR relates to a particular location (a SCIF, or safe) and you cannot remove a document from that location without transferring the document from one PDR to another in the new SECURE location.

 

[MillionMilesAway]

Isn't it likely that any document signed out would have a 'return date', and they've been chasing documents without public knowledge all this time, eliminating options, and receiving documents back when they found them. Glorified library books!

If it finally gets down to "you have them, give them back now or we approach the FBI". That then takes months to get authorisation to act.

I suspect previously they've never needed a rigid and narrow protocol because previous presidents have behaved themselves.

 

[BlueMoonAcrossThePond]

Isn't it likely that any document signed out would have a 'return date', and they've been chasing documents without public knowledge all this time, eliminating options, and receiving documents back when they found them. Glorified library books!

If it finally gets down to "you have them, give them back now or we approach the FBI". That then takes months to get authorisation to act.

I suspect previously they've never needed a rigid and narrow protocol because previous presidents have behaved themselves.

That's possible. The complete lack of media coverage with regard to this possibility suggests otherwise though. Document control procedures themselves are likely secret. And hence exact details wouldn't be revealed.

But some sort of story along the lines of:
"According to sources, the FBI is currently tracking other top secret documents known to have been last in possession of Donald Trump but which heretofore have not been recovered."

Or some such.

Instead, we hear:
"Well, there's some empty folders marked 'top secret' we discovered at Mar-a-Lago. Let's hope we've found all missing secret documents."

There's a dog here, not barking in the night - and the dog's silence is deafening.

 

[MillionMilesAway]

That's possible. The complete lack of media coverage with regard to this possibility suggests otherwise though. Document control procedures themselves are likely secret. And hence exact details wouldn't be revealed.

But some sort of story along the lines of:
"According to sources, the FBI is currently tracking other documents known to have been last in possession of Donald Trump but which heretofore have not been recovered."

Or some such.

Instead, we hear:
"Well, there's some empty folders marked 'top secret' we discovered in Mar-a-Lago. Let's hope we've found all missing secret documents."

There's a dog here, not ferociously barking in the night - and the dog's silence is deafening.

Entirely possible, I agree.
Just my impression is that some branches of govt still work on honour systems and an expectation that people act according to the rules.
All the tales of staff taping torn documents and making sure they held as much as they could must have some credence, but keeping everything tracked would be horrendously difficult.

 

[BlueMoonAcrossThePond]

Entirely possible, I agree.
Just my impression is that some branches of govt still work on honour systems and an expectation that people act according to the rules.
All the tales of staff taping torn documents and making sure they held as much as they could must have some credence, but keeping everything tracked would be horrendously difficult.

Agree about "honor system."

Also agree about the rigidity and attendant loss of "freedom" attached to document control.

But if you want to ensure that top secret documents aren't disclosed to adversaries - or if you want to (help) ensure that engineering mistakes don't lead to nuclear meltdowns - then a very strict, written, reviewed-and-approved by an external party, set of document control procedures - need to be in place. Based on what's been reported in the media, it strikes me that document control as enforced by the NA has some major loopholes - at the very least with regard to presidential access.

 

[MillionMilesAway]

Agree about "honor system."

Also agree about the rigidity and attendant loss of "freedom" attached to document control.

But if you want to ensure that top secret documents aren't disclosed to adversaries - or if you want to (help) ensure that engineering mistakes don't lead to nuclear meltdowns - then a very strict, written, reviewed-and-approved by an external party, set of document control procedures - need to be in place. Based on what's been reported in the media, it strikes me that document control as enforced by the NA has some major loopholes - at the very least with regard to presidential access.

Apparently so - I have no idea how the NA police it, and what powers they have to demand papers.

I'm more comparing with Johnson here deciding to ignore his ethics people, and try to change rules when they were inconvenient. It is difficulty to futureproof systems against amoral people while still allowing accessibility,

 

[Trevor Morley's Tache]

Isn't it likely that any document signed out would have a 'return date', and they've been chasing documents without public knowledge all this time, eliminating options, and receiving documents back when they found them. Glorified library books!

If it finally gets down to "you have them, give them back now or we approach the FBI". That then takes months to get authorisation to act.

I suspect previously they've never needed a rigid and narrow protocol because previous presidents have behaved themselves.

If you remove a classified document from a container/safe/SCIF, it is either returned to that container before the container is signed up locked and secured, or it is removed from the container by destruction or being permanently transfered to another container.

It can be temporarily transferred, but that is only ever another secure facility which is cleared to at least the same classification as the document which is absolutely NOT MAR A LAGO.