Possibly. But that would be because pardoning the J6 protestors will not come with the stench of hypocrisy.
US Politics Thread
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Frank the Yank
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Those convicted and/or copped pleas and are serving time. Hunter Biden has not and has been given blanket immunity from future prosecution. That’s a big difference.
Trevor Morley's Tache
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Hunter Biden was prosecuted for a crime that the justice department very rarely prosecutes as a felony. That's the real difference.
Frank the Yank
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Yeah like tax evasion? The Dept of Justice let the statue of limitations run out on the years of the most egregious of tax evasion charges.
On the flip side Alvin Bragg and Tish James were in cahoots to prosecute Trump in New York-charges and crimes that are NEVER prosecuted and even without actual victims.
On the flip side Alvin Bragg and Tish James were in cahoots to prosecute Trump in New York-charges and crimes that are NEVER prosecuted and even without actual victims.
TinFoilHat
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Man admits running secret Chinese 'police station' in NYC
The site in Manhattan was used to help China identify pro-democracy activists, prosecutors say.
www.bbc.com
Is this happening here as well?
If another country was doing this it would be declared an act of war.
Hypocrits often are blind to their own hypocrisy
Username Required
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April 19, 2023Man admits running secret Chinese 'police station' in NYC
The site in Manhattan was used to help China identify pro-democracy activists, prosecutors say.
Is this happening here as well?
If another country was doing this it would be declared an act of war.
There are multiple Chinese “police stations” operating in cities across the U.S., according to an investigative group who exposed the stations after the FBI arrested two people in connection with one of the operations this week.
The not-for-profit organization Safeguard Defenders said there is an additional station in New York City, one in Los Angeles, and other operations in San Francisco, Houston, and cities in Nebraska and Minnesota, the New York Post reported.
*snip*
The Chinese Embassy has said “there is no need to make people nervous” about the stations, which it said are staffed by volunteers helping Chinese nationals with routine tasks like renewing their Chinese driver’s licenses, as reported by the New York Times.
At least 6 more secret Chinese police stations in US, says report
There are multiple Chinese “police stations” in cities across the U.S., an investigative group has claimed.
americanmilitarynews.com
18 November 2022
According to the Spain-based NGO Safeguard Defenders, Chinese public security bureaus established the "overseas police service stations" in several continents, including two in London and one in Glasgow. In North America, it found stations in Toronto and in New York.
Last month, one of the Chinese "police stations" in the centre of the Irish capital Dublin was ordered to close by the government as a result of Safeguard Defenders' work.
Reports of Chinese police stations in US worry FBI
Similar stations have been ordered to close in other countries, including Ireland and Canada.
www.bbc.com
Dec 05, 2022
Safeguard Defenders, a Spain-based rights group, said it found more than 100 of the police contact points in over 50 countries, with the law enforcement proxies working under the auspices of authorities in four jurisdictions in eastern China.
Full list of China's unofficial police stations around the world
Undeclared Chinese police proxy points target suspected criminals and Chinese dissidents, Safeguard Defenders said in a new report on Monday.
www.newsweek.com
Good workApril 19, 2023
There are multiple Chinese “police stations” operating in cities across the U.S., according to an investigative group who exposed the stations after the FBI arrested two people in connection with one of the operations this week.
The not-for-profit organization Safeguard Defenders said there is an additional station in New York City, one in Los Angeles, and other operations in San Francisco, Houston, and cities in Nebraska and Minnesota, the New York Post reported.
*snip*
The Chinese Embassy has said “there is no need to make people nervous” about the stations, which it said are staffed by volunteers helping Chinese nationals with routine tasks like renewing their Chinese driver’s licenses, as reported by the New York Times.
At least 6 more secret Chinese police stations in US, says report
There are multiple Chinese “police stations” in cities across the U.S., an investigative group has claimed.
18 November 2022
According to the Spain-based NGO Safeguard Defenders, Chinese public security bureaus established the "overseas police service stations" in several continents, including two in London and one in Glasgow. In North America, it found stations in Toronto and in New York.
Last month, one of the Chinese "police stations" in the centre of the Irish capital Dublin was ordered to close by the government as a result of Safeguard Defenders' work.
Reports of Chinese police stations in US worry FBI
Similar stations have been ordered to close in other countries, including Ireland and Canada.
Dec 05, 2022
Safeguard Defenders, a Spain-based rights group, said it found more than 100 of the police contact points in over 50 countries, with the law enforcement proxies working under the auspices of authorities in four jurisdictions in eastern China.
Full list of China's unofficial police stations around the world
Undeclared Chinese police proxy points target suspected criminals and Chinese dissidents, Safeguard Defenders said in a new report on Monday.
TinFoilHat
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Thanks for that research.April 19, 2023
There are multiple Chinese “police stations” operating in cities across the U.S., according to an investigative group who exposed the stations after the FBI arrested two people in connection with one of the operations this week.
The not-for-profit organization Safeguard Defenders said there is an additional station in New York City, one in Los Angeles, and other operations in San Francisco, Houston, and cities in Nebraska and Minnesota, the New York Post reported.
*snip*
The Chinese Embassy has said “there is no need to make people nervous” about the stations, which it said are staffed by volunteers helping Chinese nationals with routine tasks like renewing their Chinese driver’s licenses, as reported by the New York Times.
At least 6 more secret Chinese police stations in US, says report
There are multiple Chinese “police stations” in cities across the U.S., an investigative group has claimed.
18 November 2022
According to the Spain-based NGO Safeguard Defenders, Chinese public security bureaus established the "overseas police service stations" in several continents, including two in London and one in Glasgow. In North America, it found stations in Toronto and in New York.
Last month, one of the Chinese "police stations" in the centre of the Irish capital Dublin was ordered to close by the government as a result of Safeguard Defenders' work.
Reports of Chinese police stations in US worry FBI
Similar stations have been ordered to close in other countries, including Ireland and Canada.
Dec 05, 2022
Safeguard Defenders, a Spain-based rights group, said it found more than 100 of the police contact points in over 50 countries, with the law enforcement proxies working under the auspices of authorities in four jurisdictions in eastern China.
Full list of China's unofficial police stations around the world
Undeclared Chinese police proxy points target suspected criminals and Chinese dissidents, Safeguard Defenders said in a new report on Monday.
Username Required
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Here is a great article from Reason on the so-called hush money trial. Anyone paying attention knows it was bs from start to finish.
Trump's conviction suggests jurors bought the prosecution's dubious 'election fraud' narrative
A Manhattan jury on Thursday found Donald Trump guilty of falsifying 34 business records to aid or conceal "another crime."
reason.com
Prosecutors said the other crime was a violation of Section 17-152, an obscure, little-used provision of the New York Election Law. Section 17-152 makes it a misdemeanor for "two or more persons" to "conspire to promote or prevent the election of any person to a public office by unlawful means." But prosecutors never settled on any particular explanation of "unlawful means," and Juan Merchan, the judge presiding over the trial, told the jurors they could find Trump guilty even if they could not agree on one.
*snip*
That theory assumed three things: 1) that Trump recognized the Daniels payment as a FECA violation; 2) that he knew about Section 17-152, a moribund, rarely invoked law; and 3) that he anticipated how New York prosecutors might construe Section 17-152 in light of FECA. The first assumption is questionable, the second is unlikely, and the third is highly implausible. Yet you would have to believe all three things to conclude that Trump approved a plan to misrepresent his reimbursement of Cohen as payment for legal services with the intent of covering up a FECA-dependent violation of Section 17-152.
According to a second theory, Trump facilitated a violation of New York tax law by allowing Cohen to falsely report his reimbursement as income. Although that violation is described as "criminal tax fraud," Merchan said it did not matter that Cohen's alleged misrepresentation resulted in a higher tax bill. The judge noted that it is illegal to submit "materially false or fraudulent information in connection with any return," regardless of whether that information benefits the taxpayer.
Putting aside that counterintuitive definition of tax fraud, this theory required believing that Trump, when he reimbursed Cohen, not only contemplated what would happen when Cohen filed his returns the following year but also thought that "unlawful means" somehow would influence an election that had already happened. The logic here was hard to follow.
Likewise with the third theory of "unlawful means." Prosecutors suggested that Trump's falsification of business records was designed to aid or conceal the falsification of other business records. CNN reported that the latter records could involve, among other things, the corporate bank account that Cohen created to pay Daniels, Cohen's transfer of the money to Daniels' lawyer, or the Trump Organization's 1099-MISC forms for the payments to Cohen.
Since the 1099 forms were issued after the election, it is hard to see how they could have been aimed at ensuring Trump's victory. And although the other records predated the election, this theory involves a weird sort of bootstrapping.
Prosecutors said the records related to Cohen's dummy corporation, for example, were falsified because they misrepresented the nature and purpose of that entity, which by itself is a misdemeanor. That misdemeanor was the "unlawful means" by which Trump allegedly sought to promote his election, another misdemeanor. And because Trump allegedly tried to conceal the latter misdemeanor by falsifying the records related to Cohen's reimbursement, those records are 34 felonies instead of 34 misdemeanors.
The theory that Trump falsified business records to conceal the falsification of business records was "so circular as to produce vertigo in the jury room," George Washington University law professor Jonathan Turley said.
lol
And, whilst we are on the subject of using little-known or used laws and ridiculous pick and mix jury instructions to target people because of their name...
Key points from AP analysis of Trump’s New York civil fraud case
NEW YORK (AP) — Donald Trump could potentially have his real estate empire ordered “dissolved” for repeated misrepresentations on financial statements to lenders in violation of New York’s powerful anti-fraud law.
But an Associated Press analysis of nearly 70 years of similar cases showed Trump’s case stands apart: It’s the only big business found that was threatened with a shutdown without a showing of obvious victims and major losses.
*snip*
University of Michigan law professor William Thomas says he is worried the order might stick.
“Those who want to see Donald Trump suffer by any means necessary,” he said, “risk ignoring the very commitment to a rule of law that they accuse him of flouting.”
Key points from AP analysis of Trump's New York civil fraud case
Within days, Donald Trump could potentially have his sprawling real estate business empire ordered “dissolved” for repeated misrepresentations on financial statements to lenders, adding him to a short list of scam marketers, con artists and others who have been hit with the ultimate punishment for v
apnews.com
Then we have the E Jean Carroll case...a case concocted by George Galloway at a cocktail party hosted by Molly Jong-Fast in honor of Kathy Griffin and funded by Democrat mega-donor Reid Hoffman. It was George Galloway the never-Trumper resistance hero that suggested the case and retaining #MeToo Democrat activist lawyer Roberta Kaplan. A 27 year-old allegation well beyond the statute of limitations. Further, Federal District Judge Lewis Kaplan oversaw the case and is connected to Carroll’s other attorney, Shawn Crowley. She was actually a law clerk for Judge Kaplan, and he officiated her wedding ffs.
Neh neh neh neh... Convicted Felon!!!Here is a great article from Reason on the so-called hush money trial. Anyone paying attention knows it was bs from start to finish.
Trump's conviction suggests jurors bought the prosecution's dubious 'election fraud' narrative
A Manhattan jury on Thursday found Donald Trump guilty of falsifying 34 business records to aid or conceal "another crime."
Prosecutors said the other crime was a violation of Section 17-152, an obscure, little-used provision of the New York Election Law. Section 17-152 makes it a misdemeanor for "two or more persons" to "conspire to promote or prevent the election of any person to a public office by unlawful means." But prosecutors never settled on any particular explanation of "unlawful means," and Juan Merchan, the judge presiding over the trial, told the jurors they could find Trump guilty even if they could not agree on one.
*snip*
That theory assumed three things: 1) that Trump recognized the Daniels payment as a FECA violation; 2) that he knew about Section 17-152, a moribund, rarely invoked law; and 3) that he anticipated how New York prosecutors might construe Section 17-152 in light of FECA. The first assumption is questionable, the second is unlikely, and the third is highly implausible. Yet you would have to believe all three things to conclude that Trump approved a plan to misrepresent his reimbursement of Cohen as payment for legal services with the intent of covering up a FECA-dependent violation of Section 17-152.
According to a second theory, Trump facilitated a violation of New York tax law by allowing Cohen to falsely report his reimbursement as income. Although that violation is described as "criminal tax fraud," Merchan said it did not matter that Cohen's alleged misrepresentation resulted in a higher tax bill. The judge noted that it is illegal to submit "materially false or fraudulent information in connection with any return," regardless of whether that information benefits the taxpayer.
Putting aside that counterintuitive definition of tax fraud, this theory required believing that Trump, when he reimbursed Cohen, not only contemplated what would happen when Cohen filed his returns the following year but also thought that "unlawful means" somehow would influence an election that had already happened. The logic here was hard to follow.
Likewise with the third theory of "unlawful means." Prosecutors suggested that Trump's falsification of business records was designed to aid or conceal the falsification of other business records. CNN reported that the latter records could involve, among other things, the corporate bank account that Cohen created to pay Daniels, Cohen's transfer of the money to Daniels' lawyer, or the Trump Organization's 1099-MISC forms for the payments to Cohen.
Since the 1099 forms were issued after the election, it is hard to see how they could have been aimed at ensuring Trump's victory. And although the other records predated the election, this theory involves a weird sort of bootstrapping.
Prosecutors said the records related to Cohen's dummy corporation, for example, were falsified because they misrepresented the nature and purpose of that entity, which by itself is a misdemeanor. That misdemeanor was the "unlawful means" by which Trump allegedly sought to promote his election, another misdemeanor. And because Trump allegedly tried to conceal the latter misdemeanor by falsifying the records related to Cohen's reimbursement, those records are 34 felonies instead of 34 misdemeanors.
The theory that Trump falsified business records to conceal the falsification of business records was "so circular as to produce vertigo in the jury room," George Washington University law professor Jonathan Turley said.
lol
And, whilst we are on the subject of using little-known or used laws and ridiculous pick and mix jury instructions to target people because of their name...
Key points from AP analysis of Trump’s New York civil fraud case
NEW YORK (AP) — Donald Trump could potentially have his real estate empire ordered “dissolved” for repeated misrepresentations on financial statements to lenders in violation of New York’s powerful anti-fraud law.
But an Associated Press analysis of nearly 70 years of similar cases showed Trump’s case stands apart: It’s the only big business found that was threatened with a shutdown without a showing of obvious victims and major losses.
*snip*
University of Michigan law professor William Thomas says he is worried the order might stick.
“Those who want to see Donald Trump suffer by any means necessary,” he said, “risk ignoring the very commitment to a rule of law that they accuse him of flouting.”
Key points from AP analysis of Trump's New York civil fraud case
Within days, Donald Trump could potentially have his sprawling real estate business empire ordered “dissolved” for repeated misrepresentations on financial statements to lenders, adding him to a short list of scam marketers, con artists and others who have been hit with the ultimate punishment for v
Then we have the E Jean Carroll case...a case concocted by George Galloway at a cocktail party hosted by Molly Jong-Fast in honor of Kathy Griffin and funded by Democrat mega-donor Reid Hoffman. It was George Galloway the never-Trumper resistance hero that suggested the case and retaining #MeToo Democrat activist lawyer Roberta Kaplan. A 27 year-old allegation well beyond the statute of limitations. Further, Federal District Judge Lewis Kaplan oversaw the case and is connected to Carroll’s other attorney, Shawn Crowley. She was actually a law clerk for Judge Kaplan, and he officiated her wedding ffs.
Signed
@FogBlueInSanFran
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Whilst I'm on the E Jean Carroll sham-case, the jury in that civil case were specifically asked if Donald Trump raped her, you know according to all the elements of New York State LAW, and they answered NO, even by the lower standards for guilt in a civil trial! Rather they found him liable for the lesser-included offense of sexual assault. That's not enough for people who hate Donald Trump.
Month's after the decision Judge Kaplan wrote in a dismissal of Trump's demand for a new trial that as "commonly understood" Trump had, in fact raped her. It's actually fucking outrageous as anyone not suffering from TDS can plainly see. The jury, the actual trier of fact, found otherwise, acting on Judge Kaplan's own instructions! As "commonly understood" is not the standard, and is itself an unsupported statement of fact. Kaplan is simply inserting his opinion after-the-fact about what constitutes rape, and this from a judge. Kaplan's post-trial opinion is NOT the law, and Trump was tried according to law, not some supposed "commonly understood" definition.
“The finding that Ms. Carroll failed to prove that she was ‘raped’ within the meaning of the New York Penal Law does not mean that she failed to prove that Mr. Trump ‘raped’ her as many people commonly understand the word ‘rape.’ Indeed, as the evidence at trial recounted below makes clear, the jury found that Mr. Trump did exactly that.”
The words of a TDS weasel.
Who are these "many people commonly understanding"? How many are there? Prove your assertion, and after proving it, show why their opinion is in any way relevant to the FACT the the jury, the trier of FACT said NO to the charge.
"After listening to Judge Kaplan's instructions, Alice Trump was found not guilty by a jury today of the charge of murdering Jim Carroll, rather the jury found her guilty of the lesser included offense of vehicular manslaughter. Judge Kaplan, from the bench, opined that despite the decision of the jury according to law, everybody knows that as commonly understood Alice Trump was guilty of murder."
Can you imagine, a 1L being asked by a law professor "What's the definition of simple fraud?" replying not with reference to a particular statute, or the black-letter law in a horn book or Black's Law, saying...
"Well, simple fraud is defined on Dictionary.com and in the town of Nowhere-on-Hudson as...".
Month's after the decision Judge Kaplan wrote in a dismissal of Trump's demand for a new trial that as "commonly understood" Trump had, in fact raped her. It's actually fucking outrageous as anyone not suffering from TDS can plainly see. The jury, the actual trier of fact, found otherwise, acting on Judge Kaplan's own instructions! As "commonly understood" is not the standard, and is itself an unsupported statement of fact. Kaplan is simply inserting his opinion after-the-fact about what constitutes rape, and this from a judge. Kaplan's post-trial opinion is NOT the law, and Trump was tried according to law, not some supposed "commonly understood" definition.
“The finding that Ms. Carroll failed to prove that she was ‘raped’ within the meaning of the New York Penal Law does not mean that she failed to prove that Mr. Trump ‘raped’ her as many people commonly understand the word ‘rape.’ Indeed, as the evidence at trial recounted below makes clear, the jury found that Mr. Trump did exactly that.”
The words of a TDS weasel.
Who are these "many people commonly understanding"? How many are there? Prove your assertion, and after proving it, show why their opinion is in any way relevant to the FACT the the jury, the trier of FACT said NO to the charge.
"After listening to Judge Kaplan's instructions, Alice Trump was found not guilty by a jury today of the charge of murdering Jim Carroll, rather the jury found her guilty of the lesser included offense of vehicular manslaughter. Judge Kaplan, from the bench, opined that despite the decision of the jury according to law, everybody knows that as commonly understood Alice Trump was guilty of murder."
Can you imagine, a 1L being asked by a law professor "What's the definition of simple fraud?" replying not with reference to a particular statute, or the black-letter law in a horn book or Black's Law, saying...
"Well, simple fraud is defined on Dictionary.com and in the town of Nowhere-on-Hudson as...".
Username Required
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Fani Willis news:
A Georgia appeals court has ruled that Fulton County District Attorney Fani Willis and her office must be disqualified from the criminal racketeering case she brought against President-elect Donald Trump and his allies over their efforts to alter the results of the 2020 election.
And a couple of weeks ago...
On Dec. 2, a court in Georgia found Willis in violation of Peach State open records laws for a violation that occurred within the context of a lawsuit aimed at prying away information about her and her office’s communications with Smith and members of the since-defunct House select committee investigating the Jan. 6 attack.
In a 6-page order granting the plaintiff’s motion for default judgment, Fulton County Superior Court Judge Robert McBurney ordered the district attorney’s office to provide the requested documents and left open the possibility of forcing the state to pay attorneys fees.
At the same time Willis is refusing to comply with a request by the House Judiciary Committee to turn over any documents she may have that pertain to communications with Jack Smith, the White House, or the January 6th Committee.
And earlier this year...
Former Fulton County Special Prosecutor Nathan Wade admitted to having multiple meetings with the Biden-Harris administration at the time of Fani Willis's prosecution of former President Donald Trump, as per a newly released transcript. He, however, did not disclose the details of the alleged meetings.
The House Judiciary Committee interviewed Wade for four hours on Capitol Hill last week. The interview was a part of Chairman Jim Jordan's investigation into Donald Trump's prosecutions.
In the interview, Wade refrained from revealing details of his meetings with White House representatives, but admitted to the existence of records of the discussions that happened.
Wade's attorney Andrew Evans also pointed out that Wade did not have any memory of the meetings, as he spoke to Fox News.
A Georgia appeals court has ruled that Fulton County District Attorney Fani Willis and her office must be disqualified from the criminal racketeering case she brought against President-elect Donald Trump and his allies over their efforts to alter the results of the 2020 election.
And a couple of weeks ago...
On Dec. 2, a court in Georgia found Willis in violation of Peach State open records laws for a violation that occurred within the context of a lawsuit aimed at prying away information about her and her office’s communications with Smith and members of the since-defunct House select committee investigating the Jan. 6 attack.
In a 6-page order granting the plaintiff’s motion for default judgment, Fulton County Superior Court Judge Robert McBurney ordered the district attorney’s office to provide the requested documents and left open the possibility of forcing the state to pay attorneys fees.
At the same time Willis is refusing to comply with a request by the House Judiciary Committee to turn over any documents she may have that pertain to communications with Jack Smith, the White House, or the January 6th Committee.
And earlier this year...
Former Fulton County Special Prosecutor Nathan Wade admitted to having multiple meetings with the Biden-Harris administration at the time of Fani Willis's prosecution of former President Donald Trump, as per a newly released transcript. He, however, did not disclose the details of the alleged meetings.
The House Judiciary Committee interviewed Wade for four hours on Capitol Hill last week. The interview was a part of Chairman Jim Jordan's investigation into Donald Trump's prosecutions.
In the interview, Wade refrained from revealing details of his meetings with White House representatives, but admitted to the existence of records of the discussions that happened.
Wade's attorney Andrew Evans also pointed out that Wade did not have any memory of the meetings, as he spoke to Fox News.
My God! @Username Required you have been spraying some disinfectants on this thread. :)
@KS55 I know you like legal related political banter. Surely, you must have an opinion on the prior 3 post from UR, right?
@FogBlueInSanFran please don't miss out on the prior 3 posts from UR. And your erudite commentary is, as always, requested. Seeing as you are the beckon of neutrality around these parts. :)
@KS55 I know you like legal related political banter. Surely, you must have an opinion on the prior 3 post from UR, right?
@FogBlueInSanFran please don't miss out on the prior 3 posts from UR. And your erudite commentary is, as always, requested. Seeing as you are the beckon of neutrality around these parts. :)
Frank the Yank
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You beat me to it U R. What a joke. She not only acted like a petulant child in the courtroom, she most likely committed perjury. Why that judge didn’t rein her in when she went off I have no idea!!
Frank the Yank
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This E Jean Carroll case is a bag of shit as well. She didn’t tell anyone for years and years. Not only can’t she remember the date, she cannot even recall what SEASON it was. If she said a date, it’s more than likely Trump was out of town or had a completely full diary where there were scores of witnesses. Yeah I can see Donald Trump wandering around Bergdorf Goodman on his lonesome in the women’s section. It’s totally preposterous.
BTW mods and Ric be aware ABC news and Georgie Step N Fetch A Lot had to fork over $16 million dollars to get rid of a case against them when Georgie Boy claimed Trump was convicted of rape. Georgie actually has to fork over $1 million of his bloated salary to Trump personally!! The guy is a 24 carat unctuous twat. Oh, they had to issue an apology as well.
Frank the Yank
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Fani Willis’ boyfriend Mr Wade got paid $654,000 for his work on the case!! Over a half a million dollars…for a job he wasn’t the best person for, hell I doubt he was even qualified!! Let that sink in!!! It’s a joke!!
Frank the Yank
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This is another Alvin Bragg special!! They had anti semitic riots at Columbia University. Not only did they forcibly take over an administration building using violence, they actually kidnapped a poor janitor who had fuck all to do with anything.
Guess what? Alvin Bragg dropped ALL CHARGES against the miscreants. Bragg only want to prosecute dangerous people like Trump and Daniel Penney..
If you are referring to the rape case, Trump was found liable for sexual asssault because she was unable to testify that he inserted his penis rather than his fingers. NY law at the time specified rape as insertion of the penis. It has since been amended. Trumps defence of course was that nothing happened at all, which seems more likely to me but I didn’t witness the trial. Trumps defence should have opted for a jury, but failed to do so. Ms Habba strikes again. That civil case was decided on the balance of probabilities by a judge sitting alone.
More generally, politics seems to play a big part in NY courts. The big question is why Bragg conducted fraud proceedings against the Trump organisation and its execs but not Trump. Very murky.
Last edited:
Frank the Yank
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Correct me if I am wrong but wasn’t this a CIVIL case?? Burden of proof is light years different/easier than in a criminal case.
In this case people believe HER although there’s really no evidence from independent witnesses.