US Politics Thread

[domalino]

When those measures include jailing people silently praying? Absolutely!!!

No one has been jailed for silently praying.

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

It is ignorant because it ignores (that word was well chosen) both the difference between US and European culture and the fact that Russia can March into Europe which it cannot do in US. These issues make a big difference and to ignore them makes the speech nonsense.
People are not banned from silently praying, just from any form of words or demonstration in a short distance from the clinics. The prayer can do what he wants a yard further on. How many people have been killed or injured in the US when approaching such clinics? At least one medic I remember.
You seem to have missed his praise for the guy who disobeyed the law. Was that in a different speech? Can’t be bothered to check.
If he had taken an approach that took into account the factors I mentioned and put forward ways to mitigate the differences yet advocated his policies that would have been far better. Why did he not do this?

Absolutely wasting your time with this troll.

I can remember him arguing for two oddballs that harassed a courier into handing over medical waste from abortions which unsurprisingly resulted in that guy being fired.

 

[FogBlueInSanFran]

Absolutely wasting your time with this troll.

I can remember him arguing for two oddballs that harassed a courier into handing over medical waste from abortions which unsurprisingly resulted in that guy being fired.

If I recall correctly, Dax is a rabid anti-abortion zealot. And even if I’m wrong, so what? Lies and exaggerations don’t bother him as long as the outcome is what he wants.

 

[threespires]

My quote function doesn't work: so I'm putting in quotes what im responding to.

1. "Does he really think measures against violence around abortion clinics are an attack on free speech?"

When those measures include jailing people silently praying? Absolutely!!!

Adam Smith-Connor wasn't jailed he was fined and given a conditional discharge. More to the point he wasn't prosecuted for praying silently; he was prosecuted for breaching a safe zone after being asked to leave it multiple times. You can follow your conscience and both pray (silently or aloud) and protest in a huge number of contexts and locations; you just can't do it in very close proximity to an abortion clinic. What is so hard to understand about this? There is no 'thoughtcrime' element to this despite what Vance and the likes of the ADF might want people to think. I have no problem with a debate on religious freedoms and absolutely no issue with people advocating for the rights of the unborn child but we need the importation of this kind of nonsense, and the US propensity to hijack religion for political purposes, into the UK like we need a hole in the head.

 

[FogBlueInSanFran]

Adam Smith-Connor wasn't jailed he was fined and given a conditional discharge. More to the point he wasn't prosecuted for praying silently; he was prosecuted for breaching a safe zone after being asked to leave it multiple times. You can follow your conscience and both pray (silently or aloud) and protest in a huge number of contexts and locations; you just can't do it in very close proximity to an abortion clinic. What is so hard to understand about this? There is no 'thoughtcrime' element to this despite what Vance and the likes of the ADF might want people to think. I have no problem with a debate on religious freedoms and absolutely no issue with people advocating for the rights of the unborn child but we need the importation of this kind of nonsense and the US propensity to hijack religion for political purposes into the UK like we need a hole in the head.

What’s so hard about this is that the facts apparently don’t fit the narrative the poster wants to spin. What is a fact is that he said he’d support Vance “a million times” over Trump, so if you think there’s a lot of cognitive dissonance from him around Trump’s words and actions, it’s only going down an even darker black hole when it comes to JDV.

 

[Alan Harper's Tash]

Adam Smith-Connor wasn't jailed he was fined and given a conditional discharge. More to the point he wasn't prosecuted for praying silently; he was prosecuted for breaching a safe zone after being asked to leave it multiple times. You can follow your conscience and both pray (silently or aloud) and protest in a huge number of contexts and locations; you just can't do it in very close proximity to an abortion clinic. What is so hard to understand about this? There is no 'thoughtcrime' element to this despite what Vance and the likes of the ADF might want people to think. I have no problem with a debate on religious freedoms and absolutely no issue with people advocating for the rights of the unborn child but we need the importation of this kind of nonsense and the US propensity to hijack religion for political purposes into the UK like we need a hole in the head.

It’s as if location isn’t important.

I tend to do my prayers at the top of my voice on the train in the rush hour commute.

One airing of Alahu Akbar and I get the whole carriage to myself.

 

[Vic]

My quote function doesn't work: so I'm putting in quotes what im responding to.

1. "Does he really think measures against violence around abortion clinics are an attack on free speech?"

When those measures include jailing people silently praying? Absolutely!!!

"Does he really think think disobeying a court order makes you some kind of hero and the punishment make you a martyr? "

When did he say that? Come on, you are better than this

If be happy to go through a point by point analysis of the speech. Yes, you may not like it. But it is not "ignorant nonsense."

More so than anything, it may be an annoying speech coming from an outsider.

As we head for the War of Trump's Mouth, do we come to a time when pro-Trump posters should be treated like wartime collaborators?

I post this partiy to get across to those few how their hero is damaging the USA's world reputation.

 

[Dax777]

Adam Smith-Connor wasn't jailed he was fined and given a conditional discharge. More to the point he wasn't prosecuted for praying silently; he was prosecuted for breaching a safe zone after being asked to leave it multiple times. You can follow your conscience and both pray (silently or aloud) and protest in a huge number of contexts and locations; you just can't do it in very close proximity to an abortion clinic. What is so hard to understand about this? There is no 'thoughtcrime' element to this despite what Vance and the likes of the ADF might want people to think. I have no problem with a debate on religious freedoms and absolutely no issue with people advocating for the rights of the unborn child but we need the importation of this kind of nonsense, and the US propensity to hijack religion for political purposes, into the UK like we need a hole in the head.

Okay. Correction accepted..He was 'found guilty' not jailed. Poor choice of words

Now to your point below

"More to the point he wasn't prosecuted for praying silently; he was prosecuted for breaching a safe zone after being asked to leave it multiple times"

Question: Does the law bar you from standing in the "safe zone" of an abortion clinic?

 

[babyape]

Okay. Correction accepted..He was 'found guilty' not jailed. Poor choice of words

To be fair, it wasn’t a ‘poor choice of words’

It was an outright falsehood. A lie even.

But, you know……

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

Okay. Correction accepted..He was 'found guilty' not jailed. Poor choice of words

Now to your point below

"More to the point he wasn't prosecuted for praying silently; he was prosecuted for breaching a safe zone after being asked to leave it multiple times"

Question: Does the law bar you from standing in the "safe zone" of an abortion clinic?

Why do you think safe zones exist? What nuisance prompted the law to create them?

 

[Blue Maverick]

America need to fuck off lecturing the world when they allow their kids to be gunned down on a daily basis n schools and on the streets.

 

[threespires]

Okay. Correction accepted..He was 'found guilty' not jailed. Poor choice of words

Now to your point below

"More to the point he wasn't prosecuted for praying silently; he was prosecuted for breaching a safe zone after being asked to leave it multiple times"

Question: Does the law bar you from standing in the "safe zone" of an abortion clinic?

Probably not unless the nature of that standing attempts to influence any person’s decision to access, provide, or facilitate the provision of abortion services, which is the purpose of the law.

The offence isn't praying, it's trying to exert influence on people in the very close proximity of an abortion clinic. Assuming he didn't randomly chose the place to pray (in which case why didn't he move on when asked?) in the eyes of the court he was praying in an attempt to influence and hence breaching the protection order. I believe he said he was praying for his own unborn son who was aborted 20 years ago but I presume he could offer no compelling reason why that had to happen inside a legally defined protection zone hence why the court took the view he was seeking to influence.

Anyway, we both know what he was doing was at best an attempt to raise the question/challenge the boundaries of the legislation, in which case he got an answer. At worst it was a cynically motivated stunt to create a narrative that secular liberalism is intolerant and therefore the desire of a particular kind of 'muscular' Christianity to replace it with its own philosophy / theology is legitimate. I don't pretend to know enough about his internal motivations to know where on that spectrum it was but the presence of the ADF on the scene makes me suspicious.

I'm not going to go any further down the wormhole on this one but as a last comment I will make my own perspective clear. I'm a practising Catholic who prefers to live in a secular society even one that is more 'liberal' than I think is good for us all and even if that means taking a bit of abuse along the way. There is a reason religious people as a body can't have nice things when it comes to exercising temporal power and that's because every time we have it we do horrible things supposedly in the name of our God. In that sense I suspect JD Vance and I are very different types of Catholics and may God have mercy on us both.

 

[BTH]

Probably not unless the nature of that standing attempts to influence any person’s decision to access, provide, or facilitate the provision of abortion services, which is the purpose of the law.

The offence isn't praying, it's trying to exert influence on people in the very close proximity of an abortion clinic. Assuming he didn't randomly chose the place to pray (in which case why didn't he move on when asked?) in the eyes of the court he was praying in an attempt to influence and hence breaching the protection order. I believe he said he was praying for his own unborn son who was aborted 20 years ago but I presume he could offer no compelling reason why that had to happen inside a legally defined protection zone hence why the court took the view he was seeking to influence.

Anyway, we both know what he was doing was at best an attempt to raise the question/challenge the boundaries of the legislation, in which case he got an answer. At worst it was a cynically motivated stunt to create a narrative that secular liberalism is intolerant and therefore the desire of a particular kind of 'muscular' Christianity to replace it with its own philosophy / theology is legitimate. I don't pretend to know enough about his internal motivations to know where on that spectrum it was but the presence of the ADF on the scene makes me suspicious.

I'm not going to go any further down the wormhole on this one but as a last comment I will make my own perspective clear. I'm a practising Catholic who prefers to live in a secular society even one that is more 'liberal' than I think is good for us all and even if that means taking a bit of abuse along the way. There is a reason religious people as a body can't have nice things when it comes to exercising temporal power and that's because every time we have it we do horrible things supposedly in the name of our God. In that sense I suspect JD Vance and I are very different types of Catholics and may God have mercy on us both.

God hasn't got enough mercy for people like JD Vance. You'll probably be okay.

 

[Dax777]

To be fair, it wasn’t a ‘poor choice of words’

It was an outright falsehood. A lie even.

But, you know……

"Adam waa found guilty of breaking the government's new buffer zones criminal law which criminalizes silent prayer and other actions that could influence a person's decision within 200 meters of an abortion facility... He was sentenced to pay thousands of pounds in legal costs to the prosecution..."

That is what JD said in the speech and what I was trying to paraphrase. It was of course a mistake. Mine but not JD's

 

[ChicagoBlue]

America need to fuck off lecturing the world when they allow their kids to be gunned down on a daily basis n schools and on the streets.

“allow” is a strong word.

 

[Dax777]

It is ignorant because it ignores (that word was well chosen) both the difference between US and European culture and the fact that Russia can March into Europe which it cannot do in US. These issues make a big difference and to ignore them makes the speech nonsense.
People are not banned from silently praying, just from any form of words or demonstration in a short distance from the clinics. The prayer can do what he wants a yard further on. How many people have been killed or injured in the US when approaching such clinics? At least one medic I remember.
You seem to have missed his praise for the guy who disobeyed the law. Was that in a different speech? Can’t be bothered to check.
If he had taken an approach that took into account the factors I mentioned and put forward ways to mitigate the differences yet advocated his policies that would have been far better. Why did he not do this?

One can conclude that intimidating or trying to intimidate people trying to perform a legal act is illegal. But laws banning silent prayer as "an act that may influence others" is just a step too far

I am absolutely certain you can see that.

 

[KS55]

One can conclude that intimidating or trying to intimidate people trying to perform a legal act is illegal. But laws banning silent prayer as "an act that may influence others" is just a step too far

I am absolutely certain you can see that.

I do, but that is the law. In this case it is overkill.

 

[robbieh]

“allow” is a strong word.

I would agree. They don't passively allow it. They actively enable it.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

I would agree. They don't passively allow it. They actively enable it.

Considering the fact that most children are shot with weapons being used by people who are committing an illegal act (other than the actual murder), I would say that many laws are simply broken in the commission if the crime. Whether they’re strict enough to stop offenders is certainly a reasonable question, but “enabling” they are not.

 

[Vic]

America need to fuck off lecturing the world when they allow their kids to be gunned down on a daily basis n schools and on the streets.

What, by Freckleface Strawberries? The enemy within isn't people with guns, it's people who ban books...