Var debate 2019/20

[Blue Mist]

Referees will be more wary to give pens in the first place. I'm sure they ain't getting 12 pens with VAR in use.

Oh come on, we saw on Saturday that they would not overrule Blind Pugh for our penalty so when the ref blows for yet another Salah collapse or a Rashford dive they will not embarrass their mate and say it wasn't a penalty. They will be backed up by Sky who will show why it was a penalty and the incident will be forgotten.

 

[ctid1894]

Looks to me like it hit his shoulder!!!! Which is not considered hand ball!!!

That’s exactly what I thought too, it hits his shoulder which is why I was so adamant yesterday I wanted to see proof it hit his arm which nobody could provide all day.

You can’t give Sterling offside for his armpit/shoulder being offside because that tells us he’s allow to play the ball with that part of his body BUT then a week later give handball for the same part of the body for a so called “handball” decision.

It’s one or the other, not both.

 

[Blue Mist]

Regardless of whether the handball decision was correct or not I do think there’s something fundamentally wrong with the VAR system. When this all seeing eye can rule a goal out for something nobody in the stadium, players, officials or fans could see, but is unable to do anything about a rugby tackle in the penalty area then something is clearly wrong. The foul on Rodri was as clear and obvious an error as you’re likely to see.
From what we’ve seen already, and I’ll admit I’m sympathetic to the whole agenda conversation, but this system as I suspected it would be is open to manipulation in terms of how and when it is used.
We got shafted on Saturday, and we can’t even have a go the referee because he had fuck all to do with it.
VAR should have been a system that was fair and we could all trust, unfortunately the operators are every bit as questionable as they always have been.

Quick question, you say you are sympathetic to the agenda conversation, what is your view on Bernie being cleaned out and yet Spurs being given the foul, I know it is not VAR related but I just wonder what your thoughts are.

 

[M12Blue]

Not sure if discussed already but having a ref in the VAR room that is lower profile or less experienced than the on field ref is a problem for me

Take the Rodri pen shout, Oliver somehow misses it, now it's up to the less experienced VAR operator to undermine him, there's going to be some reluctance there.

A simple solution would be to bring in ex refs like Hackett, Halsey, Webb etc. to operate VAR.

The simple solution is to not review every decision and have the team captain use a review option to him. Ref can do as many as wishes for serious foul play but all var should be able to do is show the ref the evidence, not tell him what action to take

 

[ctid1894]

Also Danny Murphy, and Tim Cahill spoke well on MOTD2 last night.

Only a matter of time before you are going to get fans protesting. Banners, tennis balls, people walking onto the pitch.

If it happens again, I'd be in favour of going on the pitch and getting the game abandoned. Fans have been ignored in VAR and my head has been wrecked twice now by celebrating last minute winners only to see it ruled out. The football authorities did not consider fans at all.

I’m in disagreement, I’ve not got a problem at all with last minute winners being chalked off if there’s a clear handball or offside etc. That’s exactly what VAR is there for in my opinion. It’s when those decisions are “incorrect” I have a problem and that’s what we’re seeing in games with us at the moment.

It’s at least 4 “incorrect” decisions now if you consider the end of last season in the Champions League as well, that’s an issue for technology we keep getting told is 100% accurate.

 

[M12Blue]

Not sure if discussed already but having a ref in the VAR room that is lower profile or less experienced than the on field ref is a problem for me

Take the Rodri pen shout, Oliver somehow misses it, now it's up to the less experienced VAR operator to undermine him, there's going to be some reluctance there.

A simple solution would be to bring in ex refs like Hackett, Halsey, Webb etc. to operate VAR.

Agree, would this var ref be qualified to ref a match in prem? If not he shouldn’t be making decisions, re-penalTIES, for Oliver

 

[Bluephoria]

I think it’s quite clear.

1. Handball (even if accidental)
2. Gains possession/control of the ball and then
2i. Scores in the opponents net
2ii. Creates a goal scoring opportunity (can be for himself or a team mate, why does that matter? a gso is a gso and 2ii doesn’t matter anyway if he doesn’t gain possession/control of the ball)
3. Or scores directly in the opponents net with his arm (even if accidental)

So to break that down into two examples:

Llorente CL goal
1. It was accidental handball by Llorente
2. He did not gain possession/control of the ball
2i. Void as he didn’t gain possession of the ball
2ii. Void as he didn’t gain possession of the ball
3. The ball hit his arm then hit his hip and went in, it didn’t go directly into the goal off his arm
= GOAL

Jesus Prem goal
1. It was accidental handball by Laporte
2. He did not gain possession/control of the ball
2i. Void
2ii. Void
3. Void as the ball went to a teammate (Jesus) after he accidentally handballed it, not straight into the net
= GOAL

I agree with this ananlysis on the Jesus goal. There is a lot of talk of any touch by an attacking player precluding the goal, but where does that come from ?

 

[royalblue]

I think it’s quite clear.

1. Handball (even if accidental)
2. Gains possession/control of the ball and then
2i. Scores in the opponents net
2ii. Creates a goal scoring opportunity (can be for himself or a team mate, why does that matter? a gso is a gso and 2ii doesn’t matter anyway if he doesn’t gain possession/control of the ball)
3. Or scores directly in the opponents net with his arm (even if accidental)

So to break that down into two examples:

Llorente CL goal
1. It was accidental handball by Llorente
2. He did not gain possession/control of the ball
2i. Void as he didn’t gain possession of the ball
2ii. Void as he didn’t gain possession of the ball
3. The ball hit his arm then hit his hip and went in, it didn’t go directly into the goal off his arm
= GOAL

Jesus Prem goal
1. It was accidental handball by Laporte
2. He did not gain possession/control of the ball
2i. Void
2ii. Void
3. Void as the ball went to a teammate (Jesus) after he accidentally handballed it, not straight into the net
= GOAL

This is absolutely correct. There is a general perception out there that once there is a handball in the buildup to a goal it has to be ruled out. That is not what the rule states. Laporte would have needed to gain possession or control of the ball after it hit his arm in order for the goal to be ruled out. I am amazed that more is not being made of this. I’d like to see the PL explain the basis on which the decision to disallow the goal was made.

 

[TheRemainsOfTheDave]

Perhaps the solution is each club has a representative placed in the VAR box who can ask for an explanation and see the decision process in action.

I vote for Andy Morrison or Joey Barton to be ours.

 

[asahartford1]

I await ref watch on Sky this morning. People will remember the narrative over the last few seasons
"Ref couldn't make a decision because he didn't see it"

Now the narrative has changed
"There is a high bar, so VAR, didn't change decision."

This implies that suddenly the ref has seen everything and they are not overturning the decision.

So, regards the Rodri penalty, blatant, so did the ref see it, not give it, and var use the high bar, or was the narrative, that Oliver didn't see it, and VAR, also thought it was not a penalty.
So that would make it two people on the planet.

I think I already have the "high bar" script for ref watch this morning.

 

[Dobber55]

VAR or the rules something isn't right in the game

3 VAR decisions this weekend which I questioned

• Rodri we all know about
• Brighton offside goal - the player who was offside, was he active in the first phase of play? He didn't challenge for the ball that came across, other players did, he only became active in the second phase by which time he was onside?
• Everton v Watford - Watford penalty - I might of imagined it but it looked like the Everton player did not get the ball but took the player? C&OE?

I like many am lost with what VAR is there for!?

 

[bluejon]

We all need to voice our displeasure in any way we can as I don't think some people are seeing the way this is going. There seem to be lots of people who will decide at the end of the season how this affects the pleasure of attending games. I have already decided to not bother with cup games for two people as most are on the telly anyway and when a ridiculous decision goes against us I can at least have a proper burst of anger and a rant which would likely get me a stadium ban. Was thinking of doing some away games this season which I don't normally do due to workload, but that's canned too, until I know how this pans out.

When the club email surveys start appearing I'll be voicing my displeasure that's for sure.

It's going to be interesting to see how other club's fans feel about this. At the moment, I have no doubt they will think City fans anger is because we got the goal chalked off, it's not. It's about the game being completely wrecked by this change in how goals are given. Given time, and when other clubs get onto why VAR is the shittest thing to happen to match going fans, I'd hope there might be some collective action over the different fan bases. Maybe choosing a particular weekend and fans boycotting the game. Maybe this is just wishful thinking on my part as I'll be gutted if VAR stays as I really will give my season ticket up. This isn't the game I love, it's shite.

 

[PistonBlue]

Quick question, you say you are sympathetic to the agenda conversation, what is your view on Bernie being cleaned out and yet Spurs being given the foul, I know it is not VAR related but I just wonder what your thoughts are.

I nearly put that in my post but didn’t as VAR wouldn’t get involved with that as far as I’m aware?
But, shocking decision by Oliver and we can only speculate as to why he didn’t give us the free kick. I mean, wtf had Oliver seen or thinks he’s seen? And if that was in the penalty would VAR have seen it the same way as Oliver??

 

[PistonBlue]

I await ref watch on Sky this morning. People will remember the narrative over the last few seasons
"Ref couldn't make a decision because he didn't see it"

Now the narrative has changed
"There is a high bar, so VAR, didn't change decision."

This implies that suddenly the ref has seen everything and they are not overturning the decision.

So, regards the Rodri penalty, blatant, so did the ref see it, not give it, and var use the high bar, or was the narrative, that Oliver didn't see it, and VAR, also thought it was not a penalty.
So that would make it two people on the planet.

I think I already have the "high bar" script for ref watch this morning.

Precisely why VAR isn’t to work. Because the narrative will always be changed to suit.

 

[Quad]

Was speaking to a spurs and dipper fan this morning and both said var is a joke and how it should have been a pen and the goal should have stood , both said it’s spoiling football

Then was asked how it affected the fans at the game told them no 1 knew why it had not been given

Think var has a season for me and if it turns the game stale might as well watch on tv

 

[Gorton_Tubster]

I await ref watch on Sky this morning. People will remember the narrative over the last few seasons
"Ref couldn't make a decision because he didn't see it"

Now the narrative has changed
"There is a high bar, so VAR, didn't change decision."

This implies that suddenly the ref has seen everything and they are not overturning the decision.

So, regards the Rodri penalty, blatant, so did the ref see it, not give it, and var use the high bar, or was the narrative, that Oliver didn't see it, and VAR, also thought it was not a penalty.
So that would make it two people on the planet.

I think I already have the "high bar" script for ref watch this morning.

Totally with youo on that. Though I am not sure high bar is appropriate for Rodri's handball - It looked like a desparate search to find something - it was lower bar than the first penalty claim and about level with the 2nd pen claim for us.

I too think the "Ref didnt see it" argument was the way they could screw us over - No one looks at that, there is no statistic for it, it just becomes anecdotal - an example taken out of context of the whole picture which no one believes...... Same with VAR - If VAR doesnt flag a decision it gets lost in the ether - Everyone's talking about the handball and not the two penalties that were not even looked at. This is how they (If there is a "They") screw us over.

So far there have been 3 decisions not picked up by VAR, (IE Rodri's penalty claim) - And 2 in favour of City (IE Aguero's penalty and Sterlings 2nd goal last week)

 

[55yr old teenager]

VAR will be good for City ultimately. Dippers and rags won't score from off-side positions at least and won't get so many favourable decisions. Rags got 12 pens last season, 3 times what we got. Won't happen with VAR, I'm perfectly sure about that. We'll benefit in some important games from VAR as well and people will find it more acceptable.

Wont make any difference not all ppotential penalties will be reviewed as the rodri one proves. Dubious ones give to rags and dippers will be at refs discretion. So no change the the media darlings

 

[TheRemainsOfTheDave]

It's going to be interesting to see how other club's fans feel about this. At the moment, I have no doubt they will think City fans anger is because we got the goal chalked off, it's not. It's about the game being completely wrecked by this change in how goals are given. Given time, and when other clubs get onto why VAR is the shittest thing to happen to match going fans, I'd hope there might be some collective action over the different fan bases. Maybe choosing a particular weekend and fans boycotting the game. Maybe this is just wishful thinking on my part as I'll be gutted if VAR stays as I really will give my season ticket up. This isn't the game I love, it's shite.

I am hoping it's just pure bad luck for us so far, and I'll come around to realising my hatred towards it is purely due to it being a late cancelled winner based on suspicious rules (again), or bad refereeing from Oliver (again) or it was Spurs (again) or that City had run out of hot dogs and I was hungry (again).

Perhaps I'm ready to cancel anyway. My missus has always wanted to emigrate and my response has always been "I'm not stopping you", but not going to the match regularly will be weird if it comes to that. The lure of a new life beckons stronger today, though.

 

[bobbyowenquiff]

I’m in disagreement, I’ve not got a problem at all with last minute winners being chalked off if there’s a clear handball or offside etc. That’s exactly what VAR is there for in my opinion. It’s when those decisions are “incorrect” I have a problem and that’s what we’re seeing in games with us at the moment.

It’s at least 4 “incorrect” decisions now if you consider the end of last season in the Champions League as well, that’s an issue for technology we keep getting told is 100% accurate.

Spot on. It has emerged today that the Jesus goal cancellation was a wrong decision anyway because at no time did Laporte have control of the ball. So those media apologists for VAR are totally wrong to claim it is just a problem with the handball law. The VAR operators got it wrong on the goal and incredibly didn't act on the Rodri penalty. So they overuled the referee on a perfectly good goal by Jesus and then accepted the mistake made by Oliver on the penalty. So what is the point of having VAR. This is a scandal. So when can the paying customers see the video evidence as seen by the VAR team?

 

[its a Barm]

I want to know who the person was making this decision, I can just imagine him sat there in his liverpool top laughing his head off.