Var debate 2019/20

[Marvin]

This is not a Manchester City issue. It's an issue for the game and supporters in general.

There are two main issues:

• Precision
  
  In the Champions League, the controversy revolved around handball and the interpretation of deliberate handballs, but now it is offside calls.
  
  Any measurement you make is associated with error. You can call it measurement error. We have human error, systematic error, and in a marginal offside call there are two measurements:
  
  When the ball is played, and the distance between defender and attacker. And further to that the image has to be corrected for distortion if the image is not in line. (Recall the stills of the John Stones goal-saving clearance v Liverpool which from the camera position on the half-way line looked well over the line, but on the line was shown to be good). The process is clearly complex if it's done properly, and all aspects will have systematic errors which will be compounded when combined to generate what is called error propagation.
  
  We had several marginal offside calls in the West Ham v Manchester City game. Why don't PGMOL release their evidence? Why don't they show football fans how they arrive at their decision?
  
  If they were open, and the system worked within an acceptable margin of error, then it might be acceptable, subject to my next point. We are not Luddites. Why the secrecy? The inability of various media organisations to recreate and substantiate the West Ham v City offside calls raises question marks against it. They are using the same system as far as I can see.

• In my opinion, even if measurement system was precise, it has to be done in real-time. Football fans are part of the game. Re-run goals over a minutes delay, and we become emotionally detached from the game.

I note that journalists are being given presentations and Q&A sessions. That's good. I wish one of these journalists had some scientific training and knew what questions to ask. That is part of the problem I think. Football is the end user and journalists appraise it, and neither may understand the pitfalls.

I have to wonder why the secrecy. If you want public confidence in this issue then open it up to review. Get some sports science university department on it, or some independent performance analysis team to review their process using historic samples.

One thing I learned yesterday was that in the discussion about when a ball is played, they use the first contact with the ball, not the last. That seems a bit arbitrary, but at least they have a standard. I think we were assuming it was the last.

 

[M12Blue]

People keep talking about the success in cricket and tennis of var but there is a fundamental difference to what we witnessed on Saturday.
That is that the var is used only for opposition challenges in those sports. I think this in football would solve many of the problems. Perhaps 2 challenges per game, keep if challenge proven correct.
That way we’re not going to be waiting for every goal to be assessed before celebrating, players can have a nasty challenge reviewed, head injury review before break away goal etc....
We then have post match analysis of the decisions the team captain made not a man in a van. Yes will still be contention but I think fans much more understanding of a 2 min delay to proceeding whilst they get the angles correct.
Just a thought

 

[M12Blue]

VAR is only going to work from a fans perspective when the call is almost instantaneous as for line technology.
They therefore should be working on VAR correcting significant linesman errors first, Player 2 yards offside for example. Sky shows those replays instantaneously, so I’m sure VAR could do likewise. The time seems to be with the close decisions. What is deemed too close a decision would be determined by the time it takes, not the Ofer way round.
As the technology and users improves or changes and the closer decisions are also done instantaneously, then those tight calls can be made without interference of match watching fans.
As a familiar voice was said ‘lay the foundations before building the house’

 

[Fiftyyearsandcounting]

There is another example of inconsistency with VAR. Linemen are instructed to keep their flag down with marginal offsides BUT ONLY IF AN IMMEDIATE GOAL SCORING OPPORTUNITY IS PRESENT.
In the second half, against WHU, Eddie launched the ball from within his 6-yard box over the half-way line. Gabby was flagged offside although replays showed it to be a very close call. Gabby was clear and may well have run on to score but because the opportunity to score was not IMMEDIATE, he was flagged.

 

[TheThirdDeano]

the offside rule is going to reviewed;

 

[Alan Harper's Tash]

Shouldn't it be a penalty?

He hasn't gained an advantage in scoring an own goal, so no offence has been committed

 

[Marvin]

VAR is only going to work from a fans perspective when the call is almost instantaneous as for line technology.
They therefore should be working on VAR correcting significant linesman errors first, Player 2 yards offside for example. Sky shows those replays instantaneously, so I’m sure VAR could do likewise. The time seems to be with the close decisions. What is deemed too close a decision would be determined by the time it takes, not the Ofer way round.
As the technology and users improves or changes and the closer decisions are also done instantaneously, then those tight calls can be made without interference of match watching fans.
As a familiar voice was said ‘lay the foundations before building the house’

No one has any objections to referees using technology but any system has to be in real time, or as near as makes no difference.

I am sure that it will evolve and improve but why not suspend it until it is ready?

Perhaps we are doing a disservice to it, but then if you keep it under wraps, and don't discuss its capabilities then what do you expect.

I understand that the presshave all been invited to workshops, Q&A sessions etc but they are too busy writing about tactical fouling to do their more fundamental job which is to act as the guardians of the game. Shearer is a VAR ambassador. The rest of the media should ask the questions, raise the issues.

What is the margin of error on an offside? Can they showcase their decisions retrospectively? What is the review time for an offside call? What developments are in the pipeline? Has it all been independently verified?

Andy Gray has already shown that the system is questionable in his review of the West Ham v City game. And for those who say that's not the system, then what is it? It's VAR. Certainly going to be very similar because we've seen their screenshots of final evidence.

As usual we wait until a Man Utd or Liverpool find themselves on the wrong end, then the media will show an interest.

 

[Aytoun]

Yesterday I watched a re run of the rags game on Sunday, yes I know. The goal where rashfod scored from a through ball from pogbad looked well offside. Yet there seemed no VAR on the video I saw.

Does anyone know if it was checked ? And more importantly WHY it was not VARed ?

 

[SWP's back]

the offside rule is going to reviewed;

Sensible if they do.

 

[Marvin]

Yesterday I watched a re run of the rags game on Sunday, yes I know. The goal where rashfod scored from a through ball from pogbad looked well offside. Yet there seemed no VAR on the video I saw.

Does anyone know if it was checked ? And more importantly WHY it was not VARed ?

I assume it was checked. It was marginal.

Just onside. imo

The image highlighs how awkward it is to do in 2D. If you look at their feet and consider the grass cut line, you get the feel that he was onside. Again you're trusting that I took this frame at the right time. I am not sure I did. A VAR advocate I heard yesterday said that they use the first strike of the ball, not the last. That would give the benefit to Rashford here as he was sprinting. By the way, who is to say how the rule should be applied. Should it be the first strike? What difference does it make? Probably irrelevant as it's probably no more than 2-3 mm at most but all these little errors all add up.

By the way look at the absolutely fantastic position of the linesman. This is a focused human being who is experienced and who does not have all the distortions we have. He is actually in a better position than anyone, but he only has one view. But it is real time.

I love the view of Pogba. It seems to be about to fall over backwards. Of course he doesn't and isn't but you may think why.