Var debate 2019/20

[Deleted member 77198]

The only thing you've left out of an otherwise perfect summing up of the nature of what will happen because of VAR is that not only does it put an end to that deep emotional attachment to what is going on on the pitch, but to that communal experience of 50 thousand people going mad at the same time for the same reason. You can't put a price on that.

Fans in Germany and Holland have hated VAR being in their leagues.

 

[Marvin]

The consensus amongst football people outside of City is that the decisions were correct. I have been influenced both ways reading the opinion but can't summon up any feelings of outrage. If I read the rules and look at the video evidence I can see that the decisions are consistent with the rules. There is a grey area over UEFA guidance and pending changes that muddy the waters, but I am going with how the game has been interpreted in the past and I believe that Aguero was cm offside and that the handball was not deliberate. You can say that that means it's not a goal but the rules do not say that and until they change, they apply. That is what a neutral observer would say.

 

[TheGoodJoe]

I think it's really bad and sad that people can not just accept that we got beat.

The world is divided. Conspiracies exist. People are oppressed and exploited but football is our escape. I do not accept that the game is that warped to the point that Manchester City are being cheated at every available opportunity.

The conspiracy angle is untenable and very poor sporting behaviour below the standards I would expect from City fans. Spurs beat us fair and square. Accept it and move on.

I'm perhaps misrepresenting your opinion here SilverFox. i normally agree with most things you say, I am just reacting to a theme I am seeing from City fans of being cheated. We weren't cheated. Decisions may have been made incorrectly but I believe for the most part the game is clean and honest.

The people in the VAR room have all the angles and clearly saw the ball hit the arm of Llorente. They knew the goal should not stand. It is technology for Christ sake, meant to solve puzzles like that at a fast rate. The people in the studio only showed it once and it was clear as daylight that the people in the VAR room had the footage.

It just takes one of them to let the referee know it is a handball, show him the footage and scrap the goal.

I knew that they would not show that footage again as soon as the studio refused to replay that part. No matter how we try to sugar-coat it, it was clear corruption and conspiracy against City caught on tape.

 

[ojeme]

I take it you`ve never played the game otherwise you`d realise that its impossible to even think about your stupid claim in a micro second.It hit his hip but dont let Citys shit defending get in the way of excuses,thats what lost us the match.
I`ll glady meet and you can call me a coward to my face you key board warrior.

The guy is right by calling you a coward I'm afraid. You're defending an illegality with words like "micro seconds, slight" etc whilst ignoring that that slight touch had a big impact. Was that not what VAR was brought to solve - those "micro second" hugely vague events? But here they stuck to a very unclear footage and you are fine with that?

You excuse the officials for not chalking it off citing the "micro seconds" excuse but you are down with them cancelling a City goal that was deemed offside in micro seconds.

Ask yourself and answer sincerely, isnt that what a coward would do?

Pep made a few mistakes, Laporte plenty, etc. Who doesn't? And that's a seperate issue but going out of your way to justify an illegality doesn't look good you at all. Is it so hard to admit that our mistakes AND poor/bent officiating cost us the game?

 

[BlueMoonz1977]

I am with you on this. I have already found myself holding back when we score. It's still incredible experience but it changes it.

Can you say though that Spurs fans did not experience some of the most cathartic moments of their lives in those minutes?

VAR changes how we will respond to games, but it might not necessarily be entirely bad. I am trying to be open-minded here. We will not always be the victims in it. We lost fair and square. Hope people just accept the result. We were unlucky in the way the rules were applied in that the decisions were so marginal.

There are two sides to a game. We are experiencing this through the disadvantaged side, and need to consider the whole. We will one day be the beneficiaries.

All in all though at the moment, I am against VAR and worry how it will change fans attachment to the game. The whole thing is in its infancy though. Quite simply if it doesn't work, it will get changed.

Spot on. It being in its infancy there are going to problems, UEFA must learn from the mistakes made the other night, but also from other games that have had suspect VAR decisions and implement change. The media have actually acknowledged the handball which puts pressure on UEFA to make multiple angles available in an instant.

The big issue arises if UEFA turn to ignorance and do not act accordingly to what has occurred.

I hope though tha5 UEFA look at the laws of the game,, as i believe they need to be changed now to allow VAR to be used both correctly and swift. Their should be no grey area’s left to make the pitch ref’s job harder, offside should be a clear offside (none of this foot or shoulder being in-front), as of next season we are told that the handball llorrente scored would actually be disallowed.

VAR is here to stay, there is nothing we can do about it. Last season in the CL we were crying out for VAR being used in the games against the dippers for their offside goal and the milner rebound that put us through to score. Had VAR given those we would have experienced a different emotion to what we have the other night.

 

[Marvin]

Fans in Germany and Holland have hated VAR being in their leagues.

I kind of thought that was a bit strong from a side that you think might benefit from VAR but obviously it's having a big effect.

Journalists here who write about it have so far only analysed it from the perspective of decision making but the game is played for us the fans and if you celebrate a goal and then those celebrations go on hold it's a fundamental change.

What will happen is that a Barcelona or Man Utd etc will lose out and then suddenly they will be up in arms and changes will be made.

 

[TheGoodJoe]

The consensus amongst football people outside of City is that the decisions were correct. I have been influenced both ways reading the opinion but can't summon up any feelings of outrage. If I read the rules and look at the video evidence I can see that the decisions are consistent with the rules. There is a grey area over UEFA guidance and pending changes that muddy the waters, but I am going with how the game has been interpreted in the past and I believe that Aguero was cm offside and that the handball was not deliberate. You can say that that means it's not a goal but the rules do not say that and until they change, they apply. That is what a neutral observer would say.

You can say deliberate or not deliberate handball when we are talking about a penalty. If a defender did not deliberately try to stop the goal. Then it is unfair to give a penalty. However, it still goes to a particular magnitude.

When it comes to using a hand to aid a goal, we can not start talking deliberate. It was handball all day long. The goal should have been chalked off.

 

[Marvin]

Spot on. It being in its infancy there are going to problems, UEFA must learn from the mistakes made the other night, but also from other games that have had suspect VAR decisions and implement change. The media have actually acknowledged the handball which puts pressure on UEFA to make multiple angles available in an instant.

The big issue arises if UEFA turn to ignorance and do not act accordingly to what has occurred.

I hope though tha5 UEFA look at the laws of the game,, as i believe they need to be changed now to allow VAR to be used both correctly and swift. Their should be no grey area’s left to make the pitch ref’s job harder, offside should be a clear offside (none of this foot or shoulder being in-front), as of next season we are told that the handball llorrente scored would actually be disallowed.

VAR is here to stay, there is nothing we can do about it. Last season in the CL we were crying out for VAR being used in the games against the dippers for their offside goal and the milner rebound that put us through to score. Had VAR given those we would have experienced a different emotion to what we have the other night.

Technology is coming in, and I think it's a good thing. I am willing to think about it and accept change. However I do not like the current arrangement of the most marginal decisions being replayed and the game being placed on hold. Perhaps I will adapt and learn and change.

We should be open-minded. It's football trying to find a better way. At the moment I do not think it is better. I would prefer to give referees on the spot and in the moment more information rather than stop the game and go backwards.

 

[BlueMoonz1977]

I kind of thought that was a bit strong from a side that you think might benefit from VAR but obviously it's having a big effect.

Journalists here who write about it have so far only analysed it from the perspective of decision making but the game is played for us the fans and if you celebrate a goal and then those celebrations go on hold it's a fundamental change.

What will happen is that a Barcelona or Man Utd etc will lose out and then suddenly they will be up in arms and changes will be made.

Therein lies the big question. Will UEFA only act when it causes an issue to established elite. Regardless of our status at present, the established elite clubs still hold more power

 

[Marvin]

I am confused about the rules, the UEFA advice. What was handball, offside etc. I never in the past paid too much attention. The minutiae was for the refs to implement and I trusted them. I still do. We know that football is politically divided and there are groups, but I don't think VAR is part of that divide. It's not anti-City. What I think is that VAR is a device to improve refereeing standards as IT gets better and the game gets faster but so far in the process they have not looked at it from a fans perspective and we as fans are just adapting too.

 

[SilverFox2]

I think it's really bad and sad that people can not just accept that we got beat.

The world is divided. Conspiracies exist. People are oppressed and exploited but football is our escape. I do not accept that the game is that warped to the point that Manchester City are being cheated at every available opportunity.

The conspiracy angle is untenable and very poor sporting behaviour below the standards I would expect from City fans. Spurs beat us fair and square. Accept it and move on.

I'm perhaps misrepresenting your opinion here SilverFox. i normally agree with most things you say, I am just reacting to a theme I am seeing from City fans of being cheated. We weren't cheated. Decisions may have been made incorrectly but I believe for the most part the game is clean and honest.

I am old school I'm afraid so a shrug of the shoulders and on to the next game however I am interested in technology so my post reflects the potential use of individual frames to prove fast moving events.
The idea that var would be perfect to backup or question decisions is not always true in close decisions was my point.
We need original slo mo frames for that to happen.

 

[TueartsOHK]

I don’t care if an error has been made. Humans make errors even when shown evidence. If errors have been made and City have lost a game, or in this case gone out of the CL, I’m not that bothered. I was gutted on the night but I’m already over it and already well up for the next game.

I care more about the #1 thing football is about - fans celebrating goals!

Nothing... not sex, not a win at the bookies, not your girlfriend saying “yes” when you’ve popped the question down on one knee, not even the birth of your kids... nothing makes you celebrate like a goal being scored in football. Nothing! Nothing else gives you pure exhilarating elation that makes you go wild with crazy abandon. It’s better than an orgasm, it’s better than when you ‘come up’ on drugs. Imagine standing at the front of the church celebrating your missus saying “I do” like you would a big goal in football - she’d call the wedding off and have you carted off to the loonie bin.

But you go that wild at the footy!

The celebration of goals in football is why football is the top sport in the world.

The introduction of VAR is taking that away.

After that winner the other night, I went as mad as I ever have apart from two other occasions (Agüeroooo! And Dickov), and knowing what the feeling of disappointment was when the VAR decision came up on the screen... I will never celebrate another goal in football properly ever again.

It’s gone!

The one thing that made football the best sport, the one thing that was a better feeling than anything else in life, has gone!

They can call goals offside, onside, right or wrong, I don’t care about that. I care about losing the pure exhilarating elation that makes you go wild with crazy abandon.

I was all for the introduction of VAR (and I still think it should be used for looking at possible red card challenges and possible penalties), but it’s going to ruin the greatest thing in the world, and I want VAR for goals to be scrapped.

I’d rather have corruption going on against us than lose being able to celebrate a goal properly!

Great post and captures everything I feel. We were dancing around the lounge after the goal and as soon as it went to VAR it was like a smack in the face. Before players only had to glance to the linesman now the celebrations will be subdued and the moment gone.

I don’t see how we could have VAR but not have it for everything. We already have goal line technology covered but goals are scored from offside positions, after fouling a defender, from handball. We can’t be selective it’s all or nothing.

Where they have to get it right is the process. As I understand it next season in the EPL referees will not be going to view incidents on TV but will receive advice on their ear piece from a few blokes in a van. This may speed things up but the whole process will be invisible to the fans. In the Champions league they need stricter guidelines on what is expected from the ref - were told that he had all the angles available but he didn’t use them. For such a critical decision we as a club are owed an explanation of why he didn’t view the incident from every angle. I won’t hold my breath.

 

[BlueMoonz1977]

Technology is coming in, and I think it's a good thing. I am willing to think about it and accept change. However I do not like the current arrangement of the most marginal decisions being replayed and the game being placed on hold. Perhaps I will adapt and learn and change.

We should be open-minded. It's football trying to find a better way. At the moment I do not think it is better. I would prefer to give referees on the spot and in the moment more information rather than stop the game and go backwards.

For example look at the aguero offside for Sterling’s goal. Now watching that replay the linesman has failed to do his job. He should have spotted the offside and raised his flag immediately but he didnt. Problem is, if the linesman didnt raise his flag because in his head he is thinking it doesnt matter, if City score this will go to VAR as they will spot it, this is a major flaw in the VAR system.

Thats why i am hoping UEFA simplify the rules so VAR works in a fast manner. Offside should be offside, not a shoulder or foot but clear daylight

 

[Marvin]

For example look at the aguero offside for Sterling’s goal. Now watching that replay the linesman has failed to do his job. He should have spotted the offside and raised his flag immediately but he didnt. Problem is, if the linesman didnt raise his flag because in his head he is thinking it doesnt matter, if City score this will go to VAR as they will spot it, this is a major flaw in the VAR system.

Thats why i am hoping UEFA simplify the rules so VAR works in a fast manner. Offside should be offside, not a shoulder or foot but clear daylight

I think it's simpler not to have grey areas. What's clear daylight? The current rule is OK imo.

Another thing I don't like is how far back in a move you go, and how thoroughly do you look. I bet if you examine goals from corners, a very significant number will involve infringements.

The game has to be refereed in real time I think with judgements made on black and white issues. Interpretation should be instant from the match official. I am confident in time football will get this right.

 

[trublue55]

I think it's really bad and sad that people can not just accept that we got beat..

You keep banging on to this effect, and say football opinion is against us.

I have moved on, (and am already looking forward to tomorrows challenge) , but moving on, not least of all because nothing is going to change, does not make it right.
As i have posted earlier, i don't really like Rossiter's directive, that was issued in January, prior to the knockout stages, that made it clear (a directive!!) that changes due to be implemented from June 1st, aided by VAR, were to be introduced immediately for the Champions League, nobody, neither you, nor me, have to like those changes, but if the powers that be decree they are in force, those should be the rules that are played to.
So, the very directive that resulted in penalties at Schalke, PSG, and the first leg at Spurs, is the same directive, that should have ruled out Llorente's goal. I'm sorry, that's not an opinion, its a fact. Incidentally if they are going to use VAR to improve /get things right, the penalty at Spurs should categorically have been re-taken, as Vertonghen encroached (NOT marginally), and ultimately he cleared it.

With regards to the Aguero offside, i've no idea if he was or wasn't offside, at the crucial moment, (when it left Bernardo's right leg), so far they have failed to show the correct freeze frame, merely an earlier moment before the ball touched Bernardo, and Aguero was moving back towards being onside. Somehow they managed to show Mane with the brightly coloured lines to demonstrate he was onside in the other semi, and that was broadcast at half time.Where is the picture with the lines on, that the VAR official ruled on?

Nothing will change the outcome, my issue is not with using VAR, but with using it correctly, and following their own directive's!!

 

[stonerblue]

Couldn't agree more mate, at first I was all for it, but witnessing it the other night, and the disruption to
the flow and tempo of the game that was the result, has changed my view of it. I'll stress, it's not just because
of the City game, it's going to piss others off for sure.

Deffo not just because of City game, it's the game, and supporters in general that will suffer

 

[levets]

VAR is still effectively in its infancy. There are going to be errors and we were bloody unfortunate that one glaring error helped knock us out the competition. The drama that surrounded our knockout blow has been in the public eye, it has been backed by tabloids saying it was handball. Even Llorrente has admitted he was sure it would be wiped out

And then lets add to the fact that an official has come forward to say it was not used correctly. The only good that can come out if this is if lessons are learnt and the ref on the pitch, lets not forget is the most important person as he is making the decision - so UEFA should be aware of this now, needs full access to multiple camera angles. As we are all aware the angle he was shown makes it look like he was only hit on the hip.

Another thing that needs to be addressed with the introduction of VAR, is the rulebook needs to be changed. I think it all needs to be simplified in terms of what is and what isnt offside amongst others. Offside now should revert back to having clear daylight between the last defender and the firward placed attacker, none of this his ankle or foot was offside

The worrying issue with VAR if what i read the other day by another Blue posting on here, is if it is the TV station that provides the camera angle to the officials. If this is true it needs to be stopped immediately, it leaves the whole situation in the hands of a non-football entity dictating who they want to favour.

Yes let the station provide the camera angle but if this us how UEFA want it to be provided then they should have an official in the box with the people from where the images are beamed from, so he is dictating that all angles are fed through to the pitch official.

I would also say to UEFA that us as match going fans want to be kept in the loop, not have to rely on watching this unfold from the stands in the dark or on your mobile. The images should be fed to the large screen in the stadium

The worrying issue with VAR if what i read the other day by another Blue posting on here, is if it is the TV station that provides the camera angle to the officials. If this is true it needs to be stopped immediately, it leaves the whole situation in the hands of a non-football entity dictating who they want to favour.
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Craig Burley and Shaka Hislop confirmed on ESPN that the var officials use camera angles provided by the ‘Host’ broadcaster.

 

[caseball]

If they can penalise Otamendi in Gelsenkirchen then they should penalise Llorente in Manchester. Two players who didn't deliberately deflect the ball with their arm. What's the difference?

 

[Allnightlong]

The worrying issue with VAR if what i read the other day by another Blue posting on here, is if it is the TV station that provides the camera angle to the officials. If this is true it needs to be stopped immediately, it leaves the whole situation in the hands of a non-football entity dictating who they want to favour.
=====
Craig Burley and Shaka Hislop confirmed on ESPN that the var officials use camera angles provided by the ‘Host’ broadcaster.

If this is the case then BT need to be asked the question on why they didn't provide the ref with more angles. This should be in the public domain too

 

[levets]

If I control a crossed ball with my shoulder, my arms stuck to my body and head the ball in the following second, should the goal count even though I was intending to chest the ball?

Shoulder is not handball