Var debate 2019/20

[danielwood5]

I get what you are saying but it would be the aftermath of every game without VAR like before, every match was dominated by how bad the refs was, the diving, cheating etc.
We know without VAR the officials can not cope with the game and have to make blind decisions - I don’t see how we could revert back to that.

I’ve always said it, VAR should have been bought in more slowly - ie: just for this season - VAR to be used for handball decisions. Then next season VAR for handball and offside decisions etc. Slow implementation is the only way.

Implementing it slowly may have helped, if they perfected using it for handball first, then moved on to offside when that was sorted then things may have been better with it. They're still not using it to stamp out diving and the sly little kicks, stamps and elbows though and for me that's a more pressing need than perfecting the art of working out offsides to a fraction of a millimetre or seeing if a ball brushed against the nail of an attackers finger to rule out a goal.
It's the fact that it isn't being used to stop cheating that makes it seem all the more corrupt.
I haven't seen a team cheat as regularly and systematically as Liverpool have over the last six or so years, they've mastered the art of diving and the sly rake of the studs down the back of opposition players ankles and other snidey tactics of a similar ilk. VAR isn't being used to stop this behaviour and is in fact rewarding it in a lot of ways, especially when it comes to diving for penalties as we now seem to live in the age of 'if there's contact he's entitled to go down' nonsense, no one is 'entitled to go down' you go down if you've been tripped, pushed or otherwise impeded, it isn't a decision a player makes themselves.
VAR has completely ripped the heart out of top level football in this country with the way it is being used to help Liverpool to the title. I can understand how you're a fan of it as it probably doesn't affect West Ham too often, at the start of the season you predicted you could finish eighth, which seems realistic, you probably had a few teams in mind that you would be battling with in and around that area of the table. I haven't watched any games this season apart from ours (because of the way VAR is being used) so I don't l know this for certain but I'm pretty sure that West Ham haven't been constantly on the wrong end of 'controversial' VAR decisions while your rivals have been on the right end of equally as 'controversial' decisions.
For us the situation is slightly different, we were aiming for one position in the table only, first, and we knew who our one serious rival was, Liverpool. We started the season pretty well but from week one we saw the way that the referees were using VAR and as the season went on I have watched the desire and fight drain from our players. Personally, I can't blame them for giving up because when you're trying to go toe to toe with a rival but you're playing the game to different rules, and you're the ones disadvantaged by the disparity between these different rulebooks, then it affects players mentally and as we know mentality is a huge part of the game these days.
Last season Liverpool got a lot of favourable decisions, they were constantly being rewarded for diving as referees were too scared to not give them the result they wanted, the press would crucify them for denying Liverpool a penalty but if they give one for a dive then it isn't mentioned anywhere and so they, quite naturally, take the easy option and give it. We hoped that VAR would stop this and give us a level playing field, but it hasn't, it's made it worse. This season for us we have been screwed over every single weekend, if we don't get screwed by VAR then Liverpool have been gifted points using VAR. We have had points taken of us and given to Liverpool, as have Chelsea, Leicester, Palace, Spurs, Everton and maybe Villa? There may be a couple of other teams that have been on the wrong end of Liverpool's VAR 'luck' but I can't remember them all as I don't watch their games anymore.
It's not just the last minute penalties from dives that have changed the season around, it's also the fact that even with VAR in play Liverpool are immune to cards and therefore none of their ever serve a suspension. Is there any other team that could have a player elbow drop an opposition player in the head during a derby game and then laugh in his face because he knew he was absolutely immune to any kind of action? If that had been any other team in the league it would have been called out for the shameless act of a coward and there would be repeat calls for the player to be banned but that doesn't happen to Liverpool. The same way they have carte blanche to push opposition players into hoardings with no threat of sanction, or stamp on players, or trip them as they are about to have a shot, etc, etc, etc.
This is what we have been playing against this season, I have seen the effect it has had on top class players who have dedicated their lives to being the best athlete they can in their chosen sport and it is awful to see them, as well as us as paying fans, be cheated out of being able to watch top quality athletes from 20 teams go at it over a season to see who comes out on top.
As you say, the referees have been terrible and most probably corrupt in other seasons but it's worse this season as the technology is there to make this a fair competition for all but instead it's being used to manipulate the league and that, to me at least, is an absolute disgrace and is the death knell of football as a sport in this country.

 

[stonerblue]

Implementing it slowly may have helped, if they perfected using it for handball first, then moved on to offside when that was sorted then things may have been better with it. They're still not using it to stamp out diving and the sly little kicks, stamps and elbows though and for me that's a more pressing need than perfecting the art of working out offsides to a fraction of a millimetre or seeing if a ball brushed against the nail of an attackers finger to rule out a goal.
It's the fact that it isn't being used to stop cheating that makes it seem all the more corrupt.
I haven't seen a team cheat as regularly and systematically as Liverpool have over the last six or so years, they've mastered the art of diving and the sly rake of the studs down the back of opposition players ankles and other snidey tactics of a similar ilk. VAR isn't being used to stop this behaviour and is in fact rewarding it in a lot of ways, especially when it comes to diving for penalties as we now seem to live in the age of 'if there's contact he's entitled to go down' nonsense, no one is 'entitled to go down' you go down if you've been tripped, pushed or otherwise impeded, it isn't a decision a player makes themselves.
VAR has completely ripped the heart out of top level football in this country with the way it is being used to help Liverpool to the title. I can understand how you're a fan of it as it probably doesn't affect West Ham too often, at the start of the season you predicted you could finish eighth, which seems realistic, you probably had a few teams in mind that you would be battling with in and around that area of the table. I haven't watched any games this season apart from ours (because of the way VAR is being used) so I don't l know this for certain but I'm pretty sure that West Ham haven't been constantly on the wrong end of 'controversial' VAR decisions while your rivals have been on the right end of equally as 'controversial' decisions.
For us the situation is slightly different, we were aiming for one position in the table only, first, and we knew who our one serious rival was, Liverpool. We started the season pretty well but from week one we saw the way that the referees were using VAR and as the season went on I have watched the desire and fight drain from our players. Personally, I can't blame them for giving up because when you're trying to go toe to toe with a rival but you're playing the game to different rules, and you're the ones disadvantaged by the disparity between these different rulebooks, then it affects players mentally and as we know mentality is a huge part of the game these days.
Last season Liverpool got a lot of favourable decisions, they were constantly being rewarded for diving as referees were too scared to not give them the result they wanted, the press would crucify them for denying Liverpool a penalty but if they give one for a dive then it isn't mentioned anywhere and so they, quite naturally, take the easy option and give it. We hoped that VAR would stop this and give us a level playing field, but it hasn't, it's made it worse. This season for us we have been screwed over every single weekend, if we don't get screwed by VAR then Liverpool have been gifted points using VAR. We have had points taken of us and given to Liverpool, as have Chelsea, Leicester, Palace, Spurs, Everton and maybe Villa? There may be a couple of other teams that have been on the wrong end of Liverpool's VAR 'luck' but I can't remember them all as I don't watch their games anymore.
It's not just the last minute penalties from dives that have changed the season around, it's also the fact that even with VAR in play Liverpool are immune to cards and therefore none of their ever serve a suspension. Is there any other team that could have a player elbow drop an opposition player in the head during a derby game and then laugh in his face because he knew he was absolutely immune to any kind of action? If that had been any other team in the league it would have been called out for the shameless act of a coward and there would be repeat calls for the player to be banned but that doesn't happen to Liverpool. The same way they have carte blanche to push opposition players into hoardings with no threat of sanction, or stamp on players, or trip them as they are about to have a shot, etc, etc, etc.
This is what we have been playing against this season, I have seen the effect it has had on top class players who have dedicated their lives to being the best athlete they can in their chosen sport and it is awful to see them, as well as us as paying fans, be cheated out of being able to watch top quality athletes from 20 teams go at it over a season to see who comes out on top.
As you say, the referees have been terrible and most probably corrupt in other seasons but it's worse this season as the technology is there to make this a fair competition for all but instead it's being used to manipulate the league and that, to me at least, is an absolute disgrace and is the death knell of football as a sport in this country.

Great post Daniel.

 

[ballinio]

Implementing it slowly may have helped, if they perfected using it for handball first, then moved on to offside when that was sorted then things may have been better with it. They're still not using it to stamp out diving and the sly little kicks, stamps and elbows though and for me that's a more pressing need than perfecting the art of working out offsides to a fraction of a millimetre or seeing if a ball brushed against the nail of an attackers finger to rule out a goal.
It's the fact that it isn't being used to stop cheating that makes it seem all the more corrupt.
I haven't seen a team cheat as regularly and systematically as Liverpool have over the last six or so years, they've mastered the art of diving and the sly rake of the studs down the back of opposition players ankles and other snidey tactics of a similar ilk. VAR isn't being used to stop this behaviour and is in fact rewarding it in a lot of ways, especially when it comes to diving for penalties as we now seem to live in the age of 'if there's contact he's entitled to go down' nonsense, no one is 'entitled to go down' you go down if you've been tripped, pushed or otherwise impeded, it isn't a decision a player makes themselves.
VAR has completely ripped the heart out of top level football in this country with the way it is being used to help Liverpool to the title. I can understand how you're a fan of it as it probably doesn't affect West Ham too often, at the start of the season you predicted you could finish eighth, which seems realistic, you probably had a few teams in mind that you would be battling with in and around that area of the table. I haven't watched any games this season apart from ours (because of the way VAR is being used) so I don't l know this for certain but I'm pretty sure that West Ham haven't been constantly on the wrong end of 'controversial' VAR decisions while your rivals have been on the right end of equally as 'controversial' decisions.
For us the situation is slightly different, we were aiming for one position in the table only, first, and we knew who our one serious rival was, Liverpool. We started the season pretty well but from week one we saw the way that the referees were using VAR and as the season went on I have watched the desire and fight drain from our players. Personally, I can't blame them for giving up because when you're trying to go toe to toe with a rival but you're playing the game to different rules, and you're the ones disadvantaged by the disparity between these different rulebooks, then it affects players mentally and as we know mentality is a huge part of the game these days.
Last season Liverpool got a lot of favourable decisions, they were constantly being rewarded for diving as referees were too scared to not give them the result they wanted, the press would crucify them for denying Liverpool a penalty but if they give one for a dive then it isn't mentioned anywhere and so they, quite naturally, take the easy option and give it. We hoped that VAR would stop this and give us a level playing field, but it hasn't, it's made it worse. This season for us we have been screwed over every single weekend, if we don't get screwed by VAR then Liverpool have been gifted points using VAR. We have had points taken of us and given to Liverpool, as have Chelsea, Leicester, Palace, Spurs, Everton and maybe Villa? There may be a couple of other teams that have been on the wrong end of Liverpool's VAR 'luck' but I can't remember them all as I don't watch their games anymore.
It's not just the last minute penalties from dives that have changed the season around, it's also the fact that even with VAR in play Liverpool are immune to cards and therefore none of their ever serve a suspension. Is there any other team that could have a player elbow drop an opposition player in the head during a derby game and then laugh in his face because he knew he was absolutely immune to any kind of action? If that had been any other team in the league it would have been called out for the shameless act of a coward and there would be repeat calls for the player to be banned but that doesn't happen to Liverpool. The same way they have carte blanche to push opposition players into hoardings with no threat of sanction, or stamp on players, or trip them as they are about to have a shot, etc, etc, etc.
This is what we have been playing against this season, I have seen the effect it has had on top class players who have dedicated their lives to being the best athlete they can in their chosen sport and it is awful to see them, as well as us as paying fans, be cheated out of being able to watch top quality athletes from 20 teams go at it over a season to see who comes out on top.
As you say, the referees have been terrible and most probably corrupt in other seasons but it's worse this season as the technology is there to make this a fair competition for all but instead it's being used to manipulate the league and that, to me at least, is an absolute disgrace and is the death knell of football as a sport in this country.

Best post on the subject so far & I 100% agree, games finished.

 

[Colin Bells Boots]

Implementing it slowly may have helped, if they perfected using it for handball first, then moved on to offside when that was sorted then things may have been better with it. They're still not using it to stamp out diving and the sly little kicks, stamps and elbows though and for me that's a more pressing need than perfecting the art of working out offsides to a fraction of a millimetre or seeing if a ball brushed against the nail of an attackers finger to rule out a goal.
It's the fact that it isn't being used to stop cheating that makes it seem all the more corrupt.
I haven't seen a team cheat as regularly and systematically as Liverpool have over the last six or so years, they've mastered the art of diving and the sly rake of the studs down the back of opposition players ankles and other snidey tactics of a similar ilk. VAR isn't being used to stop this behaviour and is in fact rewarding it in a lot of ways, especially when it comes to diving for penalties as we now seem to live in the age of 'if there's contact he's entitled to go down' nonsense, no one is 'entitled to go down' you go down if you've been tripped, pushed or otherwise impeded, it isn't a decision a player makes themselves.
VAR has completely ripped the heart out of top level football in this country with the way it is being used to help Liverpool to the title. I can understand how you're a fan of it as it probably doesn't affect West Ham too often, at the start of the season you predicted you could finish eighth, which seems realistic, you probably had a few teams in mind that you would be battling with in and around that area of the table. I haven't watched any games this season apart from ours (because of the way VAR is being used) so I don't l know this for certain but I'm pretty sure that West Ham haven't been constantly on the wrong end of 'controversial' VAR decisions while your rivals have been on the right end of equally as 'controversial' decisions.
For us the situation is slightly different, we were aiming for one position in the table only, first, and we knew who our one serious rival was, Liverpool. We started the season pretty well but from week one we saw the way that the referees were using VAR and as the season went on I have watched the desire and fight drain from our players. Personally, I can't blame them for giving up because when you're trying to go toe to toe with a rival but you're playing the game to different rules, and you're the ones disadvantaged by the disparity between these different rulebooks, then it affects players mentally and as we know mentality is a huge part of the game these days.
Last season Liverpool got a lot of favourable decisions, they were constantly being rewarded for diving as referees were too scared to not give them the result they wanted, the press would crucify them for denying Liverpool a penalty but if they give one for a dive then it isn't mentioned anywhere and so they, quite naturally, take the easy option and give it. We hoped that VAR would stop this and give us a level playing field, but it hasn't, it's made it worse. This season for us we have been screwed over every single weekend, if we don't get screwed by VAR then Liverpool have been gifted points using VAR. We have had points taken of us and given to Liverpool, as have Chelsea, Leicester, Palace, Spurs, Everton and maybe Villa? There may be a couple of other teams that have been on the wrong end of Liverpool's VAR 'luck' but I can't remember them all as I don't watch their games anymore.
It's not just the last minute penalties from dives that have changed the season around, it's also the fact that even with VAR in play Liverpool are immune to cards and therefore none of their ever serve a suspension. Is there any other team that could have a player elbow drop an opposition player in the head during a derby game and then laugh in his face because he knew he was absolutely immune to any kind of action? If that had been any other team in the league it would have been called out for the shameless act of a coward and there would be repeat calls for the player to be banned but that doesn't happen to Liverpool. The same way they have carte blanche to push opposition players into hoardings with no threat of sanction, or stamp on players, or trip them as they are about to have a shot, etc, etc, etc.
This is what we have been playing against this season, I have seen the effect it has had on top class players who have dedicated their lives to being the best athlete they can in their chosen sport and it is awful to see them, as well as us as paying fans, be cheated out of being able to watch top quality athletes from 20 teams go at it over a season to see who comes out on top.
As you say, the referees have been terrible and most probably corrupt in other seasons but it's worse this season as the technology is there to make this a fair competition for all but instead it's being used to manipulate the league and that, to me at least, is an absolute disgrace and is the death knell of football as a sport in this country.

Excellent post. You should send this to the bent bastards at PiGMOL, but it wouldn't make the slightest difference as they are taking theit instructions from the PL / FA , as they have as good as awarded Liverpool the PL title already.

 

[BlueHammer85]

Best post on the subject so far & I 100% agree, games finished.

genuine question , if you believe the games finished are you no longer watching? Attending?
Why aren’t thousands of fans boycotting football over VAR or holding protests/marches ?

 

[BlueHammer85]

Implementing it slowly may have helped, if they perfected using it for handball first, then moved on to offside when that was sorted then things may have been better with it. They're still not using it to stamp out diving and the sly little kicks, stamps and elbows though and for me that's a more pressing need than perfecting the art of working out offsides to a fraction of a millimetre or seeing if a ball brushed against the nail of an attackers finger to rule out a goal.
It's the fact that it isn't being used to stop cheating that makes it seem all the more corrupt.
I haven't seen a team cheat as regularly and systematically as Liverpool have over the last six or so years, they've mastered the art of diving and the sly rake of the studs down the back of opposition players ankles and other snidey tactics of a similar ilk. VAR isn't being used to stop this behaviour and is in fact rewarding it in a lot of ways, especially when it comes to diving for penalties as we now seem to live in the age of 'if there's contact he's entitled to go down' nonsense, no one is 'entitled to go down' you go down if you've been tripped, pushed or otherwise impeded, it isn't a decision a player makes themselves.
VAR has completely ripped the heart out of top level football in this country with the way it is being used to help Liverpool to the title. I can understand how you're a fan of it as it probably doesn't affect West Ham too often, at the start of the season you predicted you could finish eighth, which seems realistic, you probably had a few teams in mind that you would be battling with in and around that area of the table. I haven't watched any games this season apart from ours (because of the way VAR is being used) so I don't l know this for certain but I'm pretty sure that West Ham haven't been constantly on the wrong end of 'controversial' VAR decisions while your rivals have been on the right end of equally as 'controversial' decisions.
For us the situation is slightly different, we were aiming for one position in the table only, first, and we knew who our one serious rival was, Liverpool. We started the season pretty well but from week one we saw the way that the referees were using VAR and as the season went on I have watched the desire and fight drain from our players. Personally, I can't blame them for giving up because when you're trying to go toe to toe with a rival but you're playing the game to different rules, and you're the ones disadvantaged by the disparity between these different rulebooks, then it affects players mentally and as we know mentality is a huge part of the game these days.
Last season Liverpool got a lot of favourable decisions, they were constantly being rewarded for diving as referees were too scared to not give them the result they wanted, the press would crucify them for denying Liverpool a penalty but if they give one for a dive then it isn't mentioned anywhere and so they, quite naturally, take the easy option and give it. We hoped that VAR would stop this and give us a level playing field, but it hasn't, it's made it worse. This season for us we have been screwed over every single weekend, if we don't get screwed by VAR then Liverpool have been gifted points using VAR. We have had points taken of us and given to Liverpool, as have Chelsea, Leicester, Palace, Spurs, Everton and maybe Villa? There may be a couple of other teams that have been on the wrong end of Liverpool's VAR 'luck' but I can't remember them all as I don't watch their games anymore.
It's not just the last minute penalties from dives that have changed the season around, it's also the fact that even with VAR in play Liverpool are immune to cards and therefore none of their ever serve a suspension. Is there any other team that could have a player elbow drop an opposition player in the head during a derby game and then laugh in his face because he knew he was absolutely immune to any kind of action? If that had been any other team in the league it would have been called out for the shameless act of a coward and there would be repeat calls for the player to be banned but that doesn't happen to Liverpool. The same way they have carte blanche to push opposition players into hoardings with no threat of sanction, or stamp on players, or trip them as they are about to have a shot, etc, etc, etc.
This is what we have been playing against this season, I have seen the effect it has had on top class players who have dedicated their lives to being the best athlete they can in their chosen sport and it is awful to see them, as well as us as paying fans, be cheated out of being able to watch top quality athletes from 20 teams go at it over a season to see who comes out on top.
As you say, the referees have been terrible and most probably corrupt in other seasons but it's worse this season as the technology is there to make this a fair competition for all but instead it's being used to manipulate the league and that, to me at least, is an absolute disgrace and is the death knell of football as a sport in this country.

obviously I disagree with a lot of that but it’s a good honest response which I respect and will take on board.

 

[mexico1970]

genuine question , if you believe the games finished are you no longer watching? Attending?
Why aren’t thousands of fans boycotting football over VAR or holding protests/marches ?

Football to me like a recent girlfriend that you pop round and have sex with because you are at a loose end, the game has changed and I don't recognise it. Fans should walk away from it and force the engineers to rethink their slow strangulation of the sport that captures/captured the imagination of billions.
Popcorn, mild humming instead of singing, Jamie bloody Oliver food and to top it all a clear and obvious bias by VAR to award the title to their darlings in red.

 

[danielwood5]

genuine question , if you believe the games finished are you no longer watching? Attending?
Why aren’t thousands of fans boycotting football over VAR or holding protests/marches ?

Personally, I won't be renewing my season card after this year, I've found that as the season has gone on I have become completely disinterested in top flight football. Mainly because of the systematic cheating and result manipulation but also because of the way that VAR is being used purely to stop goals being scored on technicalities but not doing anything to stop actual cheating. I was feeling incredibly upset yesterday after the derby game but not because of the result but because I didn't feel excited or nervous before the game like normal and because the day after a defeat like that, especially the way it was referee'd and VAR'd (the Shaw handball was right in front of where I sit and that was 100% a penalty), I just felt nothing. I wasn't upset or angry or anything about the result just uninterested. I realised that my love of the game had gone and that something that has been a huge part of my life for 40 years had been taken away because of greed and corruption and that was what made me upset.
I think that my previous reply goes some way to explaining why thousands of fans aren't boycotting or protesting matches, it only affects most teams in the league once or twice a season when they play Liverpool or maybe the Rags later in the season if they need a good result to get into the top 4 or something. Everyone else has had maybe one or two ridiculous VAR decisions go against them and one or two go for them so far, whereas, we have had one or two go against us in one half of football and Liverpool get one or two go for them each half.
It will be interesting to see whether lower league attendances go up next season as more people move away from a managed and manipulated product and turn to grass roots football instead the same way I plan to.

 

[danielwood5]

obviously I disagree with a lot of that but it’s a good honest response which I respect and will take on board.

That's all I can ask for, that's the same way I view your opinion on VAR and I can understand why you hold it. I just hope that you're never up against it in the same way we have been so you can still enjoy the game the way it should be enjoyed.

 

[Colin Bells Boots]

obviously I disagree with a lot of that but it’s a good honest response which I respect and will take on board.

Come back when you have been fucked over by the referees as often and regularly as City have .

It's easy to be blinkered when you are not on the receiving end , and have " more modest " ambitions and expectations for your team - with no disrespect to WHU intended