VAR thread 2022/23

[Alan Harper's Tash]

I have already explained why the way offside is determined by VAR is not “factual”.

Two people, assessing the same incident, using the current system, with it’s many limitations, can arrive at two different determinations (offside/onside).

That, by it’s very nature, means it is a subjective decision, regardless of your stance on whether VAR is or is not used to manipulate match outcomes.

Again, the “fact” of whether the player was offside or onside exists. But that is unfortunately independent of the subjective determination made by VAR.

This is not a matter of opinion; it is—ironically—a fact, so I am not sure why people are still trying to claim that VAR offside determinations are factual.

Hopefully this becomes moot when semi-automation comes in.

This isn’t a VAR issue. This is a human issue. If it didn’t exist, you’d have more and worse errors given on the pitch.

It‘s no wonder 99% of posters in this thread are grumpy. They think the world is against them.

I’ll continue to enjoy football and not take things too seriously. It’s worked for me so far.

 

[SebastianBlue]

Hopefully this becomes moot when semi-automation comes in.

This isn’t a VAR issue. This is a human issue. If it didn’t exist, you’d have more and worse errors given on the pitch.

It‘s no wonder 99% of posters in this thread are grumpy. They think the world is against them.

I’ll continue to enjoy football and not take things too seriously. It’s worked for me so far.

To be fair, I am grumpy because I have a one year old and thus have not slept in 12 months.

 

[Alan Harper's Tash]

To be fair, I am grumpy because I have a one year old and thus have not slept in 12 months.

And KDB got you 2 points last night. ;-)

 

[SebastianBlue]

And KDB got you 2 points last night. ;-)

It’s taken me nearly 24 hours to come down from that rage.

 

[Alan Harper's Tash]

It’s taken me nearly 24 hours to come down from that rage.

Especially after he missed a one on one at the end too!

 

[SebastianBlue]

Especially after he missed a one on one at the end too!

Me, in that moment…

 

[Bluearmy]

I have already explained why the way offside is determined by VAR is not “factual”.

Two people, assessing the same incident, using the current system, with it’s many limitations, can arrive at two different determinations (offside/onside).

That, by it’s very nature, means it is a subjective decision, regardless of your stance on whether VAR is or is not used to manipulate match outcomes.

Again, the “fact” of whether the player was offside or onside exists. But that is unfortunately independent of the subjective determination made by VAR.

This is not a matter of opinion; it is—ironically—a fact, so I am not sure why people are still trying to claim that VAR offside determinations are factual.

While i take your point and its not wrong, its a damn sight better than without it.

I’ll leave this here, the linesman couldnt see Aubamyang was onside because……? Answers on the back of a postcard please. The redshirts are refereed differently. While VAR offsides are not perfect its better than the alternative which went unchecked for decades…..

 

[SebastianBlue]

While i take your point and its not wrong, its a damn sight better than without it.

I’ll leave this here, the linesman couldnt see Aubamyang was onside because……? Answers on the back of a postcard please. The redshirts are refereed differently. While VAR offsides are not perfect its better than the alternative which went unchecked for decades…..

Fully agree that with the non-marginal calls, which cannot really be manipulated else the corruption is obvious, VAR is much better than the alternative. That’s something I have never argued against, though.

My discussion with @Alan Harper's Tash (and a few others in the past) is about the marginal incidents, which are ripe for manipulation, and the fact that the PL has specifically implemented VAR differently to other leagues to murky the waters win it comes to those marginal calls (in my opinion to allow for continued opportunities for manipulation in those scenarios, whether or not they chose to do so every time).

Essentially, my argument is that VAR could be much better—and perhaps was actually better (though, still not as good as it could be) earlier in it’s use—than it is now but the PL *chooses* to keep it in this suboptimal form and even make changes that make it less fit for its purpose.

 

[Alan Harper's Tash]

Fully agree that with the non-marginal calls, which cannot really be manipulated else the corruption is obvious, VAR is much better than the alternative. That’s something I have never argued against, though.

My discussion with @Alan Harper's Tash (and a few others in the past) is about the marginal incidents, which are ripe for manipulation, and the fact that the PL has specifically implemented VAR differently to other leagues to murky the waters win it comes to those marginal calls (in my opinion to allow for continued opportunities for manipulation in those scenarios, whether or not they chose to do so every time).

Essentially, my argument is that VAR could be much better—and perhaps was actually better (though, still not as good as it could be) earlier in it’s use—than it now but the PL chooses to keep it in this suboptimal form and even make changes that make it poorer for its purpose.

I don’t really disagree with what you’re saying. I just don’t think the “mistakes” are down to corruption.

Some are just so marginal, you could flip a coin. Remember Mahrez’s last goal in the derby at home last season? Think the entire stadium thought it was offside live, but Luke Shaw’s leg was fat enough to make it a marginal onside call.

 

[SebastianBlue]

I don’t really disagree with what you’re saying. I just don’t think the “mistakes” are down to corruption.

Some are just so marginal, you could flip a coin. Remember Mahrez’s last goal in the derby at home last season? Think the entire stadium thought it was offside live, but Luke Shaw’s leg was fat enough to make it a marginal onside call.

I think what can get lost in discussions involving football particularly (given the current state of sport discourse) is the nuance in our more thoughtful positions. Social media has become a cesspit of “banter”, which is really just belligerent tribalism dressed up as “innocent“ lad behaviour.

I say that to provide context to my analyses: I agree that *some* of what we see with VAR’s inconsistency is likely down to pure incompetence and innocent subjectivity. But some of it is also highly likely down to corruption.

That said, I go back to my earlier post to explain why the ‘incompetence’ explanation eventually fails, regardless.

Now, some will argue the inconsistency is evidence of incompetence rather than corruption, which could be true on the face of it.

But, what many fail to realise is that continued, unresolved “incompetence” eventually itself becomes corruption.

There are only so many times a person or organisation can say “oops” before the mistakes become a pattern of behaviour which can no longer be reasonably deemed incompetence.

Dumping raw sewage and chemical waste in to a major river used for potable water, fishing, and recreation, when you are barred from doing so legally, only once is incompetence. Doing it 5 times is corruption.

Essentially, if an organisation is aware of consistent negligence, whether intentional or unintentional, and fails to take the necessary steps to both prevent it in the future and mitigate the impacts of it in the past, then it is no longer merely negligence, it is pattern of behaviour establishing criminality (@Newman Noggs explained this in an earlier post, as well).

It is a deliberate decision to continue to allow the “incompetence” to happen (or, in many circumstances, incentivise it for their own gain).