VAR thread 2022/23

[Stephen230]

Against which I would argue that you can never cover all eventualities. This is my other bugbear. Changing the rules to try to cover all eventualities is a stupid mistake, because there will always be situations that aren't covered. Then you get poor referees giving decisions like the Rashford non-offside because they followed "the letter of the law".

That was one of the most ridiculous decisions I have ever seen, along with Spurs' ball over the line against United which wasn't given as a goal and Henry's handball goal against Ireland.

A system that doesn't disallow that goal isn't fit for purpose and Colina and Wenger have a lot to answer for. Football is a touchy-feely sort of game that needs touchy-feely refereeing. I suppose Webb should be commended for rolling back the use of VAR for the subjective decisions, but that needs to happen for the "factual" decisions as well, imo.

One of the problems they have is everything in football is scrutinised and discussed endlessly, that any deviation from the VARs official guidelines would be leapt upon and used as proof of favouritism or the dreaded ‘inconsistency.’

In rugby league the video ref has a similar list of specific things he is and isn’t allowed to get involved in. But I’ve seen loads of cases where they’ve identified things officially outside their jurisdiction and no one gives a fuck. The general consensus is…Bit unorthodox but at least they got the decision right. And five seconds later everyone has forgotten all about it.

That can’t happen in football. If it became known for example that a VAR had a little word in a refs ear and said something like… I know it’s not really my business but that’s a corner mate not a goal kick. People wouldn’t be happy they’ve got the right decision between them. They’d be hell to pay if it lead to a goal and would be getting spoken about on football forums in 10 years times as proof the game’s bent.

 

[Trevor Morley's Tache]

It’s close but it’s a lot more than 1 mm. There’s a small but clear gap between the two lines.

There are effectively 5 or 6 frames to play with there where the VAR operators could claim 'that' was the moment the pass was made and you could make the attacker appear on or offside at will.

 

[Stephen230]

There are effectively 5 or 6 frames to play with there where the VAR operators could claim 'that' was the moment the pass was made and you could make the attacker appear on or offside at will.

Genuine question, how much real time elapses between two freeze frames?

 

[Trevor Morley's Tache]

Genuine question, how much real time elapses between two freeze frames?

50fps.

Haaland has been recorded at 36.22km/h this season which equates to 10.06m/s. This means that in a single frame he could have moved as much as 20cm.

 

[halfcenturyup]

One of the problems they have is everything in football is scrutinised and discussed endlessly, that any deviation from the VARs official guidelines would be leapt upon and used as proof of favouritism or the dreaded ‘inconsistency.’

In rugby league the video ref has a similar list of specific things he is and isn’t allowed to get involved in. But I’ve seen loads of cases where they’ve identified things officially outside their jurisdiction and no one gives a fuck. The general consensus is…Bit unorthodox but at least they got the decision right. And five seconds later everyone has forgotten all about it.

That can’t happen in football. If it became known for example that a VAR had a little word in a refs ear and said something like… I know it’s not really my business but that’s a corner mate not a goal kick. People wouldn’t be happy they’ve got the right decision between them. They’d be hell to pay if it lead to a goal and would be getting spoken about on football forums in 10 years times as proof the game’s bent.

Mehh. Football forums. Everyone on them is crazy anyway.

Personally I am OK with the referee making a mistake on a last touch because he is human, even if it leads to a goal, but I am also OK with the linesman making a marginal real-time call that could be doubtful because he is human as well, even if it leads to a goal.

Referee or linesman makes an enormous cock-up on a critical event, though, get him to review it. Full speed, different angles, no lines.

 

[BerkshireBlue]

There are effectively 5 or 6 frames to play with there where the VAR operators could claim 'that' was the moment the pass was made and you could make the attacker appear on or offside at will.

this is a thing of the past with the semi auto offsides if the PiGMOL catch up with the times

 

[Stephen230]

Mehh. Football forums. Everyone on them is crazy anyway.

Personally I am OK with the referee making a mistake on a last touch because he is human, even if it leads to a goal, but I am also OK with the linesman making a marginal real-time call that could be doubtful because he is human as well, even if it leads to a goal.

Referee or linesman makes an enormous cock-up on a critical event, though, get him to review it. Full speed, different angles, no lines.

This is the trouble in practice though isn’t it? What exactly constitutes “an enormous cock-up”? Because with vague terms like that, you will get even more inconsistency from game to game than we get now.

 

[Trevor Morley's Tache]

this is a thing of the past with the semi auto offsides if the PiGMOL catch up with the times

The semi-auto VAR relies on an accelerometer within the ball, which has a maximum sample rate of 500/s. For it to be accurate the WHOLE system (camera's included) needs to be precisely calibrated, and I'm willing to bet that many (barring three or four of the most modern stadiums) do not meet the requirements for installation or operation. Some stadia aren't even up to scratch for the current system FFS.

The PL are dragging their heels, and have been for a long time. It's not like they haven't got the money to invest in the latest/most up to date tech and infrastructure.

The point is, that since VAR was first used in the PL/FL, the margin of error for offside decisions has been huge, and there is no way on this earth that it hasn't been used to manipulate close calls one way or the other

 

[halfcenturyup]

This is the trouble in practice though isn’t it? What exactly constitutes “an enormous cock-up”? Because with vague terms like that, you will get even more inconsistency from game to game than we get now.

An enormous cock-up for me at my stage of life is about 6 inches unfortunately.

What about letting VAR make subjective decisions on cock-ups? IFAB are good at introducing subjectivity into decision making.

 

[halfcenturyup]

this is a thing of the past with the semi auto offsides if the PiGMOL catch up with the times

I'm not so sure. The FIFA inertia sensor operates at a higher frequency than the cameras, which determine the player data points, operate. So most offsides will be determined between camera frames. FIFA say they will interpolate an exact position but I am calling bullshit on that one. UEFA SAOT doesn't even have an inertia sensor in the ball (at least it didn't last year). It was all done from camera imagery.

Also, the data points on the player are just captured from camera imagery. They aren't wearing any sexy sensor equipment. One data point in the knee for example. So the data point isn't the actual extremity of the knee, front or back, but a position inside it. A few cms out. Just basing this on explanations from FIFA (image of the 39 data points). If that image is wrong, I may be wrong.