VAR thread 2022/23

[Alan Harper's Tash]

I have already explained why the way offside is determined by VAR is not “factual”.

Two people, assessing the same incident, using the current system, with it’s many limitations, can arrive at two different determinations (offside/onside).

That, by it’s very nature, means it is a subjective decision, regardless of your stance on whether VAR is or is not used to manipulate match outcomes.

Again, the “fact” of whether the player was offside or onside exists. But that is unfortunately independent of the subjective determination made by VAR.

This is not a matter of opinion; it is—ironically—a fact, so I am not sure why people are still trying to claim that VAR offside determinations are factual.

Hopefully this becomes moot when semi-automation comes in.

This isn’t a VAR issue. This is a human issue. If it didn’t exist, you’d have more and worse errors given on the pitch.

It‘s no wonder 99% of posters in this thread are grumpy. They think the world is against them.

I’ll continue to enjoy football and not take things too seriously. It’s worked for me so far.

 

[SebastianBlue]

Hopefully this becomes moot when semi-automation comes in.

This isn’t a VAR issue. This is a human issue. If it didn’t exist, you’d have more and worse errors given on the pitch.

It‘s no wonder 99% of posters in this thread are grumpy. They think the world is against them.

I’ll continue to enjoy football and not take things too seriously. It’s worked for me so far.

To be fair, I am grumpy because I have a one year old and thus have not slept in 12 months.

 

[Alan Harper's Tash]

To be fair, I am grumpy because I have a one year old and thus have not slept in 12 months.

And KDB got you 2 points last night. ;-)

 

[SebastianBlue]

And KDB got you 2 points last night. ;-)

It’s taken me nearly 24 hours to come down from that rage.

 

[Alan Harper's Tash]

It’s taken me nearly 24 hours to come down from that rage.

Especially after he missed a one on one at the end too!

 

[SebastianBlue]

Especially after he missed a one on one at the end too!

Me, in that moment…

 

[Bluearmy]

I have already explained why the way offside is determined by VAR is not “factual”.

Two people, assessing the same incident, using the current system, with it’s many limitations, can arrive at two different determinations (offside/onside).

That, by it’s very nature, means it is a subjective decision, regardless of your stance on whether VAR is or is not used to manipulate match outcomes.

Again, the “fact” of whether the player was offside or onside exists. But that is unfortunately independent of the subjective determination made by VAR.

This is not a matter of opinion; it is—ironically—a fact, so I am not sure why people are still trying to claim that VAR offside determinations are factual.

While i take your point and its not wrong, its a damn sight better than without it.

I’ll leave this here, the linesman couldnt see Aubamyang was onside because……? Answers on the back of a postcard please. The redshirts are refereed differently. While VAR offsides are not perfect its better than the alternative which went unchecked for decades…..

 

[SebastianBlue]

While i take your point and its not wrong, its a damn sight better than without it.

I’ll leave this here, the linesman couldnt see Aubamyang was onside because……? Answers on the back of a postcard please. The redshirts are refereed differently. While VAR offsides are not perfect its better than the alternative which went unchecked for decades…..

Fully agree that with the non-marginal calls, which cannot really be manipulated else the corruption is obvious, VAR is much better than the alternative. That’s something I have never argued against, though.

My discussion with @Alan Harper's Tash (and a few others in the past) is about the marginal incidents, which are ripe for manipulation, and the fact that the PL has specifically implemented VAR differently to other leagues to murky the waters win it comes to those marginal calls (in my opinion to allow for continued opportunities for manipulation in those scenarios, whether or not they chose to do so every time).

Essentially, my argument is that VAR could be much better—and perhaps was actually better (though, still not as good as it could be) earlier in it’s use—than it is now but the PL *chooses* to keep it in this suboptimal form and even make changes that make it less fit for its purpose.

 

[Alan Harper's Tash]

Fully agree that with the non-marginal calls, which cannot really be manipulated else the corruption is obvious, VAR is much better than the alternative. That’s something I have never argued against, though.

My discussion with @Alan Harper's Tash (and a few others in the past) is about the marginal incidents, which are ripe for manipulation, and the fact that the PL has specifically implemented VAR differently to other leagues to murky the waters win it comes to those marginal calls (in my opinion to allow for continued opportunities for manipulation in those scenarios, whether or not they chose to do so every time).

Essentially, my argument is that VAR could be much better—and perhaps was actually better (though, still not as good as it could be) earlier in it’s use—than it now but the PL chooses to keep it in this suboptimal form and even make changes that make it poorer for its purpose.

I don’t really disagree with what you’re saying. I just don’t think the “mistakes” are down to corruption.

Some are just so marginal, you could flip a coin. Remember Mahrez’s last goal in the derby at home last season? Think the entire stadium thought it was offside live, but Luke Shaw’s leg was fat enough to make it a marginal onside call.

 

[SebastianBlue]

I don’t really disagree with what you’re saying. I just don’t think the “mistakes” are down to corruption.

Some are just so marginal, you could flip a coin. Remember Mahrez’s last goal in the derby at home last season? Think the entire stadium thought it was offside live, but Luke Shaw’s leg was fat enough to make it a marginal onside call.

I think what can get lost in discussions involving football particularly (given the current state of sport discourse) is the nuance in our more thoughtful positions. Social media has become a cesspit of “banter”, which is really just belligerent tribalism dressed up as “innocent“ lad behaviour.

I say that to provide context to my analyses: I agree that *some* of what we see with VAR’s inconsistency is likely down to pure incompetence and innocent subjectivity. But some of it is also highly likely down to corruption.

That said, I go back to my earlier post to explain why the ‘incompetence’ explanation eventually fails, regardless.

Now, some will argue the inconsistency is evidence of incompetence rather than corruption, which could be true on the face of it.

But, what many fail to realise is that continued, unresolved “incompetence” eventually itself becomes corruption.

There are only so many times a person or organisation can say “oops” before the mistakes become a pattern of behaviour which can no longer be reasonably deemed incompetence.

Dumping raw sewage and chemical waste in to a major river used for potable water, fishing, and recreation, when you are barred from doing so legally, only once is incompetence. Doing it 5 times is corruption.

Essentially, if an organisation is aware of consistent negligence, whether intentional or unintentional, and fails to take the necessary steps to both prevent it in the future and mitigate the impacts of it in the past, then it is no longer merely negligence, it is pattern of behaviour establishing criminality (@Newman Noggs explained this in an earlier post, as well).

It is a deliberate decision to continue to allow the “incompetence” to happen (or, in many circumstances, incentivise it for their own gain).

 

[Bluearmy]

Fully agree that with the non-marginal calls, which cannot really be manipulated else the corruption is obvious, VAR is much better than the alternative. That’s something I have never argued against, though.

My discussion with @Alan Harper's Tash (and a few others in the past) is about the marginal incidents, which are ripe for manipulation, and the fact that the PL has specifically implemented VAR differently to other leagues to murky the waters win it comes to those marginal calls (in my opinion to allow for continued opportunities for manipulation in those scenarios, whether or not they chose to do so every time).

Essentially, my argument is that VAR could be much better—and perhaps was actually better (though, still not as good as it could be) earlier in it’s use—than it is now but the PL *chooses* to keep it in this suboptimal form and even make changes that make it less fit for its purpose.

Well you say non marginal cant be manipulated, but lets not forget that Arsenal goal wouldnt have stood. Nearly 3 and a half meters onside. Thats the risk we face with no VAR to keep these tw@ts in check. Funny how these ludicrous decisions only happen in a couple of teams favour…..

In terms of the marginal ones, we’ve had some go both in our favour and against. Bin dippers the same in the last 10 days. Its not perfect and hopefully this semi automated system should take out that human intervention element.

It needs to improve further, lets hope we see that next step forward at the world cup…. And the Premier league adopt it obviously

 

[Phil1]

VAR - it's fucking great when it rules against any of the red shite.

VAR - its fucking shite when it rules against the blue Gods.

 

[Trevor Morley's Tache]

Just look at the camera angle they CHOSE to show the viewers here.

You could EASILY roll that back 4 or 5 frames and CLAIMED it was the moment the pass was made and the attacker would have appeared MILES onside.

That is how easy it is to manipulate the system.

 

[SebastianBlue]

Well you say non marginal cant be manipulated, but lets not forget that Arsenal goal wouldnt have stood. Nearly 3 and a half meters onside. Thats the risk we face with no VAR to keep these tw@ts in check. Funny how these ludicrous decisions only happen in a couple of teams favour…..

In terms of the marginal ones, we’ve had some go both in our favour and against. Bin dippers the same in the last 10 days. Its not perfect and hopefully this semi automated system should take out that human intervention element.

It needs to improve further, lets hope we see that next step forward at the world cup…. And the Premier league adopt it obviously

True, that goes to my agreement that VAR is better than the alternative in the very obviously wrong decisions (which now cannot be “missed” without it being so obvious as to fully expose manipulation).

And regarding marginal incidents going for and against us, I address that in my most recent reply to @Alan Harper's Tash. I have not and do not assert they *always* choose to manipulate outcomes via marginal calls. Only that they have *chosen* to implement VAR in a way that allows them to do so and that the current state of VAR is not necessary (i.e. they could make it more transparent and much less susceptible to manipulation but choose not to do that).

I too am quite interested to see how the semi-automated offside system works and whether the PL will adopt it. It tends to be the last to adopt any such innovation (itself a tell-tale sign of corruption) and, when it does, tends to do it slightly differently (read: less transparently) to most other major leagues.

And I will still find the system suspect if they refuse to release general information outlining the underlying systems, methods, and margins of error as they have with the current system. That lack of transparency is a major red flag, as there is no reasonable argument for not providing that basic information of the current 3D spatial measurement system (they can repeat “oh, well, we want to protect the proprietary systems” all they want, but no one is going to reverse engineer the product if they released the margin of error (and/or variance between implementation sites).

Otherwise they are just replacing one relatively opaque system with another—arguable even more—opaque system.

 

[SebastianBlue]

View attachment 54542
Just look at the camera angle they CHOSE to show the viewers here.

You could EASILY roll that back 4 or 5 frames and CLAIMED it was the moment the pass was made and the attacker would have appeared MILES onside.

That is how easy it is to manipulate the system.

Exactly this. And, with the current ‘no accountability’ regime, even if a major outlet were to question the use of that specific frame or another to determine offside/onside, there is no recourse. Dermot Gallagher would just explain it away on Ref Watch and time would march on with non consequences.

That is the uncessary ‘opportunity for manipulation’ inherent to the system I am talking about.

Things don’t *have* to be this way. The PL *chooses* for them to be this way.

 

[Alan Harper's Tash]

True, that goes to my agreement that VAR is better than the alternative in the very obviously wrong decisions (which now cannot be “missed” without it being so obvious as to fully expose manipulation).

And regarding marginal incidents going for and against us, I address that in my most recent reply to @Alan Harper's Tash. I have not and do not assert they *always* choose to manipulate outcomes via marginal calls. Only that they have *chosen* to implement VAR in a way that allows them to do so and that the current state of VAR is not necessary (i.e. they could make it more transparent and much less susceptible to manipulation but choose not to do that).

I too am quite interested to see how the semi-automated offside system works and whether the PL will adopt it. It tends to be the last to adopt any such innovation (itself a tell-tale sign of corruption) and, when it does, tends to do it slightly differently (read: less transparently) to most other major leagues.

And will still find the system dubious if they refuse to release general information outlining the underlying systems, methods, and margins of error as they have with the current system. That lack of transparency is a major red flag, as there is no reasonable argument for not providing that basic information of the current 3D spatial measurement system (they can repeat “oh, well, we want to protect the proprietary systems” all they want, but no one is going to reverse engineer the product if they released the margin of error (and/or variance between implementation sites).

Think I posted yesterday that an in-depth documentary about VAR including in game examples of how it works would be beneficial for everyone.

 

[SebastianBlue]

Think I posted yesterday that an in-depth documentary about VAR including in game examples of how it works would be beneficial for everyone.

Indeed. I won’t be holding my breath for its release, though.

 

[hertsblue]

View attachment 54542
Just look at the camera angle they CHOSE to show the viewers here.

You could EASILY roll that back 4 or 5 frames and CLAIMED it was the moment the pass was made and the attacker would have appeared MILES onside.

That is how easy it is to manipulate the system.

Also why was Rashfords offside goal allowed to stand and this not. They told us the new rules means Rashfords could be given so why are so many others inc the same weekend as Rashford where Tony was a toe nail offside for Brentford ruled out for offside. Guess no one in charge has come out to tell us why some are offside and some not

 

[Trevor Morley's Tache]

Not sure if genuine, but if it is...

 

[The Future’s Blue!]

Not sure if genuine, but if it is...

Hopefully that isn’t true otherwise they’ve made the wrong call and makes a complete mockery of the system.

Have we now been informed that that Rashford goal was still subjective rather than within the margin of tolerance which was supposed to be more automated?

Fucking farce, if so, and would definitely lead to people believing that it’s being manipulated.