Villa return some of their 1700 allocation - on OS now

[M18CTID]

Its just common sense and very understandable that you would be more willing to fork out £40 at an away game you've got more chance of winning. Paying £40+ to watch us get humped at Oid Trafford every season isn't my idea of fun.

Don't forget we've been in the Premier League since it started aswell, visiting the same grounds every season and paying £40+ for the privilege is tedious now. There's only so many times I'm willing to pay that to watch us lose at Old Trafford or Anfield, and I've passed my limit.

I agree to an extent, but that line of thinking isn't applicable to all fans. My own deciding factors where away games are concerned are varied but probability of winning the match doesn't really come into it - if it did, I'd have stopped watching us at Old Trafford years ago! For me it's:

Cost

Logistics - if the game is at a weekend, I'm more likely to attend it than if it was a midweek night match that required me to take time off work.

How good a day out it is - for example, Everton away tends to be a shit all-round experience, whereas Villa away is always a good laugh regardless of the result.

 

[HolteEnder]

Its just common sense and very understandable that you would be more willing to fork out £40 at an away game you've got more chance of winning. Paying £40+ to watch us get humped at Oid Trafford every season isn't my idea of fun.

Don't forget we've been in the Premier League since it started aswell, visiting the same grounds every season and paying £40+ for the privilege is tedious now. There's only so many times I'm willing to pay that to watch us lose at Old Trafford or Anfield, and I've passed my limit.

I agree to an extent, but that line of thinking isn't applicable to all fans. My own deciding factors where away games are concerned are varied but probability of winning the match doesn't really come into it - if it did, I'd have stopped watching us at Old Trafford years ago! For me it's:

Cost

Logistics - if the game is at a weekend, I'm more likely to attend it than if it was a midweek night match that required me to take time off work.

How good a day out it is - for example, Everton away tends to be a shit all-round experience, whereas Villa away is always a good laugh regardless of the result.

I agree with you. The day out factor is why we always have 4000+ at Fulham every season whether it's on a sunday or on Sky, yet we only take 1800 to Spurs. The simple fact of that one is our fans know Fulham is always a good day out and we take over the place. That's where picking and choosing games comes into it again, if I could only afford one of Fulham or Spurs I would pick Fulham everytime and a lot of our fans would do the same hence our big numbers there every year.

 

[southstander93]

Have always enjoyed games vs Villa, have been to a few away trips to villa park in recent years and have always gone to the home games against them, and I've always been impressed by their support.

I agree with the majority of posters that it's the cost of football now that is limiting the number of fans attending. How many blues can honestly say that if they were watching a relegation fight at the price of £40 a ticket that we would have 40,000+ at home and 3000 away or whatever numbers you like. Back in the 90's when we were in our darkest days, tickets were affordable, so we filled Maine Road, and we took a decent away following. It's just the way of modern football.

Teams like Villa are a dying breed, teams like Sheffield Wednesday, and Coventry. All teams I would consider big clubs, but have unfortunately taken a turn for the worst in recent years, and I hope Villa don't go that way too.

 

[njmcfc1894]

I can understand why some of you are taking the piss, I'm sure some of our fans would if the roles were reversed. However it says everything about the state of modern football when a club of our size can't sell 2800 let alone 1700 tickets for a saturday 3pm kick off just up the road. It's nothing to do with 'loyalty', it's everything to do with price and the fact we've got hardly any chance of winning. Paying £40 when you know more than likely your team will lose is hardly appealing. Yes I know we charge you £43 but that's not the fans' fault, we don't decide the prices. Away supporters are a dying breed unless you're rich or support a successful team that wins most weeks. Sunderland only took 1200 to Everton last week, that wasn't even £40 but they knew b efore the game kicked off they probably wouldn't win. It's not just the ticket you have to pay for either, if I came to yours saturday it would cost me over £100 once I'd brought my lad's ticket, train tickets, beer, food. That's a lot of money and an expensive day for 90 minutes of football that we will more than likely lose. I simply can't justify paying that money with Christmas around the corner and when we're playing in a competition where the best we can achieve is about 12th. Its got to the stage where I and many more of our fans are having to pick and choose which away games are the best because it's too expensive to attend them all. We took 3000 to West Ham, 3200 to Southampton, 3300 to Swindon, 4000+ to Fulham yet we took 1400 to Sunderland, 1100 to Newcastle, 1500 to Tottenham. Emphasising it's all about having to pick and choose which aways you attend, rather than it being about loyalty. Apparantly we've already sold 3000 of our 4100 allocation for Norwich because it's £25 and it's in a competition we've got a chance of winning, simple as that. Still give me 1500 of our fans stood singing all game over the like of Everton who take 3000 and sit in silence.

spot on villa used to get 40k in division 3, always bought good following,loud fans until recently when as above youve been maine road/etihad for so many years and no chance of winning your gonna look and say nah ill go west brom/norwich etc

 

[M18CTID]

It's not one off though is it? If you follow your team you have to find £40 for this match, maybe £50 for the next and so on. You're right in that maybe if Villa were doing better then they would have more "one off fans" who would take the place of the regular fan that can't afford it. Ring any bells? This is what's happening with us at the moment. I've done every home and away match so far but due to the price of it all I'm having to take a break for a month or so. If we're doing shit then no one takes my place and opposing fans say that City's support is shit but we're champions and second in the league so someone with less points takes my place so the issue of my absense is not noticed. Some people have very short memories when ciriticising other clubs' supporters.

I never said anyone's support was 'shit' simply that I thought their low attendance this time was because of reasons other than 'just' the price of the entry ticket.
I can't attend every home and away match as much as I would like to. Neither can I afford to go on the piss every weekend, hence my saying ''a one of event''. Obviously we all have to make choices but isn't that the same whatever someone spends their 'leisure pounds' on?
However, as much as I too would like to pay less I still don't think that £40 over the top. As a season ticket holder it costs me a touch over £30.

I know you've not said that and I apologise for quoting you when mentioning this but there has been a leaning towards it on this thread from some posters. It's never just as simple as ticket price but Villa are the sort of club to use as a barometer for this. Forget us selling out and any club fighting near the top of the table and also freshly promoted clubs. We've seen "poor" numbers from clubs which would traditionally bring many more such as Newcastle, Sunderland, Villa, Stoke etc...The price of tickets I think is the major factor.

I'd add in apathy towards the predictable nature of the Premier League as a whole if you're a supporter of a club that is all too likely to finish mid-table with little chance of getting a European spot. Even a relegation battle would garner more interest amongst a club's fans than a fight to finsh between 9th and 15th.

 

[Mikeegrini]

It's not one off though is it? If you follow your team you have to find £40 for this match, maybe £50 for the next and so on. You're right in that maybe if Villa were doing better then they would have more "one off fans" who would take the place of the regular fan that can't afford it. Ring any bells? This is what's happening with us at the moment. I've done every home and away match so far but due to the price of it all I'm having to take a break for a month or so. If we're doing shit then no one takes my place and opposing fans say that City's support is shit but we're champions and second in the league so someone with less points takes my place so the issue of my absense is not noticed. Some people have very short memories when ciriticising other clubs' supporters.

I never said anyone's support was 'shit' simply that I thought their low attendance this time was because of reasons other than 'just' the price of the entry ticket.
I can't attend every home and away match as much as I would like to. Neither can I afford to go on the piss every weekend, hence my saying ''a one of event''. Obviously we all have to make choices but isn't that the same whatever someone spends their 'leisure pounds' on?
However, as much as I too would like to pay less I still don't think that £40 over the top. As a season ticket holder it costs me a touch over £30.

I know you've not said that and I apologise for quoting you when mentioning this but there has been a leaning towards it on this thread from some posters. It's never just as simple as ticket price but Villa are the sort of club to use as a barometer for this. Forget us selling out and any club fighting near the top of the table and also freshly promoted clubs. We've seen "poor" numbers from clubs which would traditionally bring many more such as Newcastle, Sunderland, Villa, Stoke etc...The price of tickets I think is the major factor.

No worries. The bold bit, an interesting measure. Got to get some work done though!

 

[Maldeika]

[
First - Deutsche Bahn is a private company even if it's shares are owned still by the state - that is due to the financial crisis because it was planned to put the company totally on the market. The company makes profit and even buys companies in Great Britain... ;)

Yes, they get payments from the state as they are the ones that are responsible for maintance of the railway tracks (that are used by other companies, too). And they blow a lot of money in big projects like e.g. Stuttgart 21 whereas the train stations in little towns look terrible since the privatisation... - but I do not want to destroy your wrong ideas...

European policy even includes Germany - and even public transport has to be open to competition... that includes Germany and the German railway system...

A week ticket from Frankfurt to Hanau (about 20 kilometres) costs 46,50 EUR. The month ticket costs 158 EUR. A single fair costs 7,30 EUR - return ticket 14,60 EUR. Compare that with your prices to a town 20 kilometres away into Manchester. I had problems trying that on my own as I do not know your region and your train system - but I do not think that it is cheaper.

The regular fares in Germany are not cheap - it sometimes seems cheap when you have the chance to get special prices for early bookings or special weekend or after business-hour-tickets. Or company tickets if there is special agreements between bigger companies and the transport agency - but then everybody of the company or at least 80% have to take that ticket...

That transportation is included in the ticket prices for matches is calculated into the ticket prices. And the calculation includes that maybe 50 per cent of the ticket owners go by car, that some come from the outer regions of the transport system and some come from the city, that there is special tickets like the "Schönes-Wochenend-ticket" at the weekend with which the fans could go long distances with a group of five for about 28 EUR and that a lot of the fans use the public transportation system every day and already have their month tickets. If you calculate the ticket prices like this and take a little off as group discount... Some save good money with the inclusion into the match ticket - some have to pay more than they get...

It's incidental in this case. They are the majority shareholder and therefore can control decisions including price-setting and deals with other companies, including football clubs. If this involves cheap transport for football fans...that's what it comes to.

The point of this discussion is not regular fares though but where football fans in Germany get a better deal as public transport is included. Clearly the answer is yes as German fans can have a ticket and transport for a third of the price of what transport by itself costs if travelling by rail to say The Hawthorns whereas German fans can go wherever they need to, to watch the match, if I'm understanding the system correctly. How do German fans get such a good deal? Clearly it's because the price of transport in the cost of the ticket is very low. I think I'm right in saying there's not many grounds in the country from Manchester which would be accessible for £10 on a regular fare. Wigan, Blackburn, Bolton, possibly Liverpool and Everton, that's your lot. You get your ticket AND transport for that.

Is away fans travel not included in the ticket prices then? I thought it was. However, a fiver each for long-distance travel is something we can only dream of over here.

The train ticket included in the match normally just means transport in the regional area. Here were I live - the Rhein-Main-Area it just includes the region in which the RMV (the traffic agency for the Rhein-Main-Area - there is a lot companies that have busses, trains etc. in this area and in this region the RMV-tickets can be used for the Deutsche Bahn, too) tickets are valid.

If you take the match tickets for the Frankfurt Eintracht. The RMV-zone e.g. ends about 30 km further in the East were the Bavarian border is whereas in other directions it goes a slightly longer distance.

The inclusion into the match ticket is just a calculation thing. I could tell you that, when my company had a special agreement with the RMV I only paid 40 EUR a month for my 158 EUR month ticket - and that was just a calculation thing, too.

Let me try to explain it to you with 100 visitors.

50 go by car and do not need a ticket for the bus.
20 already have a ticket as they travel in and around Frankfurt every day because of their jobs.
5 would be free as they go with friends who use options like take your partner or friend or whatsever with you on your job ticket on weekends...
5 take a "Schönes-Wochende-Ticket" - Nice Weekend-ticket of the Bundesbahn for 28 EUR
10 just need to take a ticket from the Hauptbahnhof to the stadium or for travel inside the city for about 5 EUR each - makes 50 EUR (could be cheaper as it is not in peak hours)
10 need a ticket between 7 EUR and 26 EUR - let us take 15 EUR - makes 150 EUR

The travel agency would have earned 28 EUR + 50 EUR + 150 EUR=228 EUR for this 100 travellers if those that need one would have bought it regulary. That's 2,28 EUR per person on the basis of 100 people.

The football club then gets something like a group discount and only pays 2 EUR for each ticket to include the price for the travelling in the regional area and with the regional transport system into the match ticket.

But - as you can see in the above calculation there is only a few of the visitors that really have an advantage through it - a lot pay for it without having that. And there is the hope that more persons use public transport on match days because of the traffic and parking situation and pollution.

Bayern Munich e.g. does not have regional travelling included. There visitors come from all over Germany and the most have to go further than the borders of the MVV (Munich transport agency).

To compare Germany and Great Britain...
If you live in areas where the Bundesliga clubs are pretty close - like Dortmund/Schalke/Düsseldorf/Cologne or Mainz/Frankfurt - they are in the same regions where you have regional transport agencies with special tickets - then that helps you at away matches. That is comparable to maybe Manchester and Liverpool. But not for all of the other matches. The match tickets just include regional travel - not all travel.

The regular train ticket from Frankfurt to Munich costs 190 EUR. The cities are about 240 miles away from each other. To Dortmund you have to pay between 150 and 180 EUR, to Hamburg about 220 EUR. There might be booking specials like early booking, you have a travel card or you get a group discount - but travelling to away matches with public transport is not cheap in Germany either if it is not in local areas.

 

[Skashion]

The train ticket included in the match normally just means transport in the regional area. Here were I live - the Rhein-Main-Area it just includes the region in which the RMV (the traffic agency for the Rhein-Main-Area - there is a lot companies that have busses, trains etc. in this area and in this region the RMV-tickets can be used for the Deutsche Bahn, too) tickets are valid.

If you take the match tickets for the Frankfurt Eintracht. The RMV-zone e.g. ends about 30 km further in the East were the Bavarian border is whereas in other directions it goes a slightly longer distance.

The inclusion into the match ticket is just a calculation thing. I could tell you that, when my company had a special agreement with the RMV I only paid 40 EUR a month for my 158 EUR month ticket - and that was just a calculation thing, too.

Let me try to explain it to you with 100 visitors.

50 go by car and do not need a ticket for the bus.
20 already have a ticket as they travel in and around Frankfurt every day because of their jobs.
5 would be free as they go with friends who use options like take your partner or friend or whatsever with you on your job ticket on weekends...
5 take a "Schönes-Wochende-Ticket" - Nice Weekend-ticket of the Bundesbahn for 28 EUR
10 just need to take a ticket from the Hauptbahnhof to the stadium or for travel inside the city for about 5 EUR each - makes 50 EUR (could be cheaper as it is not in peak hours)
10 need a ticket between 7 EUR and 26 EUR - let us take 15 EUR - makes 150 EUR

The travel agency would have earned 28 EUR + 50 EUR + 150 EUR=228 EUR for this 100 travellers if those that need one would have bought it regulary. That's 2,28 EUR per person on the basis of 100 people.

The football club then gets something like a group discount and only pays 2 EUR for each ticket to include the price for the travelling in the regional area and with the regional transport system into the match ticket.

But - as you can see in the above calculation there is only a few of the visitors that really have an advantage through it - a lot pay for it without having that. And there is the hope that more persons use public transport on match days because of the traffic and parking situation and pollution.

Bayern Munich e.g. does not have regional travelling included. There visitors come from all over Germany and the most have to go further than the borders of the MVV (Munich transport agency).

To compare Germany and Great Britain...
If you live in areas where the Bundesliga clubs are pretty close - like Dortmund/Schalke/Düsseldorf/Cologne or Mainz/Frankfurt - they are in the same regions where you have regional transport agencies with special tickets - then that helps you at away matches. That is comparable to maybe Manchester and Liverpool. But not for all of the other matches. The match tickets just include regional travel - not all travel.

The regular train ticket from Frankfurt to Munich costs 190 EUR. The cities are about 240 miles away from each other. To Dortmund you have to pay between 150 and 180 EUR, to Hamburg about 220 EUR. There might be booking specials like early booking, you have a travel card or you get a group discount - but travelling to away matches with public transport is not cheap in Germany either if it is not in local areas.

Well thank you for explaining all that. It must have taken you a while so it is genuinely appreciated. How do they work out all those numbers, do you know?

I thought you said earlier that the 28 Euro group ticket covered long distance travel? What is long-distance travel in that context?

Anyhoo, Germany may not be as cheap as I thought but it is still far better than rip-off Britain: <a class="postlink" href="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2097089/Britains-railways-expensive-comfortable-efficient-Europe.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... urope.html</a>

 

[HolteEnder]

I know our 1200 will still do us proud on saturday though. They'll all be stood singing throughout and will still make more noise than the 3000 Everton for example will take to your place.

 

[M18CTID]

I know our 1200 will still do us proud on saturday though. They'll all be stood singing throughout and will still make more noise than the 3000 Everton for example will take to your place.

They'll probably also make more noise than our 40-odd thousand that'll be in attendance too ;)