We are not mentally weak

But I have always put it at his door because I believe that as not just the de jure leader of the team as Captain, but one of the longest serving players respected by all then his mental attitude tends to rub off on others and run downhill. His mental attitude as a key figure in that dressing room is ten times more influential for example than somebody like Gael Clichy who has been here for a length of time, seems a popular bloke and played lots of games for us. It's a bigger thing than him alone of course but he does have the power to pull us out of that just as the various managers and coaches we had did.

I've said on numerous occasions that this might just be a personal thing because I neither respond to or use Kompany's leadership style. His response to visibily trying harder isn't inspirational to me because it attempts to suggest that firstly I wasn't trying my best previously, and secondly that I'm a professional who needs large and dramatic shows of effort to get over the finishing line. I much prefer cool leaders who recognise the talents of those around them and understand that pressure is the ultimate enemy here rather than effort.

In the past I've used the soldiers under fire analogy. In that situation would you want a leader who is a bit Hollywood about everything and tries to inspire through grandiose speech or actions, or do you want a leader who says "keep calm lads, remember your training, concentrate on what you've been told and we'll all come out the other side here"?

My favourite example of this is actually from that Soriano lecture in Abu Dhabi where he talked about Guardiola and a Super Cup Final game where they went into extra time. Barca were constantly knocking on the door and just couldn't break it down against a tough Monaco defence. The players were losing their discipline and started "trying too hard" for lack of a better phrase. Here's what he said to them:



That to me is perfect and exactly what we need. "Don't play passes into the middle" (Barca's game is horseshoe football like ours now), "As always, play our way", "play with the ball", "they are playing for a counter and won't change, this is why more than ever we have to play our game", "we know how good we are, we know what we can do", "don't worry, have patience, don't go crazy, keep passing the ball, everybody has to keep playing the same passes, keep moving, keep being dangerous".

Constantly reinforcing to remain calm, constantly reinforcing the belief in his style of football, telling players that it will come if they let it.

Now here's Kompany talking about his ideas on leadership:



"I shout a lot", "be calm in those moments when you need to bring the message across", "fire the team up, I believe that is a really important role", "be more vocal". "We have some great players in the team, even if we're losing 4 or 5 nil we keep shouting "we need to run more" and the team does pick it up", "you've got to show it, shout it out that we're going to do it better", "you need to be the first person to fight fires on the pitch", "defend your teammates", "don't let them take advantage of you".

Constantly talking about fighting battles, about how more running, and more shouting is the key. Only needing to remain calm in those moment when you need to put across tactical messages.

This is my problem with Kompany, I believe that he's a great leader for 90% of games but there's 10% of games which are extreme pressure situations where his leadership actually hinders us more than it helps us and we need a calming influence rather than somebody who will attempt to put more energy and more effort into performances. And this creates that constant feedback loop that I think we see all the time where the team gets a bit more nervous energy so the crowd gets more nervous energy feeding it to each other. Which is great right up until something goes badly or a decision goes against us then it turns into anger and frustration at the referee or UEFA or some cheating player. Footballers and crowds form a symbiotic circle on a matchday where they feed off each other's energy and performance, something that isn't recognised enough either by the clubs or the fans ultimately.

I think in those situations a calming influence rather than somebody seeing the nervous energy then attempting to put that into a frenzy of activity is required which is why I've always had a bee in my bonnet about Kompany in those situations. He's not the only one obviously, Hart, Milner, Zab and others are just as culpable but none of them are the Captain and the man that we look to in a time of crisis on the pitch.


Great points. What kompany is, is a great ambassador for he club. It would be interesting to understand the methods of leadership of other captains.
Whilst the comparison you made, and evidence to back up your opinion is interesting, you are comparing a captain with a manager/coach.
Their leadership styles will be adapted to the moment and scenraio they are in - the coach has time to gather his thoughts, decide what he's going to say, be calm and collected. What a captain does (certainly on the pitch) is heat of the moment stuff.

If we look at winning captains in the PL you could point towards tony Adams, Keane, terry. I'd hazard a guess they are "shouters" too and very much "gee up" their players in a similar way kompany explains. Therefore have you got to view a captains leadership in a different light.

We need top leadership, and the points you make are great. I'd like to understand more about leadership styles of other captains though, to make a real comparison.
 
I will always go for the slow burn, mentally tough locker room leader than the rah rah blow hards. Another sports team I support recently lost its captain of a decade and the difference in play and execution this year has been amazing. When he was on the team he led by example and said the right thing at the right time, now the team is lost....
 
Watched the second half of the WBA - Everton game last night. Everton were the better team but went 2-0 down. Then they got their heads down, went for it and won 3-2. I can only recall two away games in the last three seasons (Sunderland last season and Everton the season before) where we went behind and came back to win. I can recall far more where we threw away 2 goal leads or threw away points when we'd been leading. Also plenty of games we've won but where we've taken our foot off the gas. The 4-1 v the rags springs to mind, where we were 4 up in 50 minutes and just relaxed.

Whatever Macini's faults, I don't recall that being the case under him too often. So a lot of the blame must be on Pellegrini I think as it's his job to fashion the right mentality and get rid of players who don't have it. But I'm also sick of hearing players in the media saying that such-and-such a setback will make them stronger or that the latest defeat will spur them on, then playing like a bunch of puddings then next game.

The problem with trying to extrapolate such a simplistic conclusion is that every football match is completely unique. Trying to assess why one thing happened in one match and then applying it to all other matches in which a similar at face value thing has happened is IMO very difficult to do with any real accuracy or insight.

I also think that the drip drip nit picking at the manager, the players, the executives and the owners of the club is becoming a bit tragic. This has also been an almost three year thing now and it's reaching the point where it's barely credible when compared with our actual success/failure on the pitch or off it. Don't get me wrong, as i often like to repeat, I'm not trying to censor anyone. People should post what they like. Personally though I can't help but cringe and just feel sorry for most of the critics both on the forum and in the media as they rarely cover themselves in glory or give any real insight, and mostly just repeat lazy cliches or try and extrapolate huge global conclusions from unique isolated incidents.

Such as - poor second half display against Spurs = We have a mentality problem.
 
Far too much emphasis being placed on the captains role on this thread.In modern football it's not
much more than a ceremonial role on the pitch with some added responsibilities of it.
Our failures in the two recent defeats and others over the last couple of seasons are due to our
inability to adapt to different scenarios on the pitch.
 
Watched the second half of the WBA - Everton game last night. Everton were the better team but went 2-0 down. Then they got their heads down, went for it and won 3-2. I can only recall two away games in the last three seasons (Sunderland last season and Everton the season before) where we went behind and came back to win. I can recall far more where we threw away 2 goal leads or threw away points when we'd been leading. Also plenty of games we've won but where we've taken our foot off the gas. The 4-1 v the rags springs to mind, where we were 4 up in 50 minutes and just relaxed.

Whatever Macini's faults, I don't recall that being the case under him too often. So a lot of the blame must be on Pellegrini I think as it's his job to fashion the right mentality and get rid of players who don't have it. But I'm also sick of hearing players in the media saying that such-and-such a setback will make them stronger or that the latest defeat will spur them on, then playing like a bunch of puddings then next game.
Mancini used to talk about this word more than any other and Pellegrini said it after both Juve and West Ham: "concentration".

As you highlight in your post, and a previous poster who mentioned the 0-1-11 record when being behind at halftime, and the fact that just last season we blew 2-0 leads about 6 times. Maybe it's not a weak mentality, maybe we lack concentration too many times or for too long during games. Once we get into good leads and just slack off isn't because we're thinking ahead about injuries and conserving energy (a big indicator that that isn't important to our manager was playing a full strength team at Sunderland in the FL Cup last week), maybe we drop our concentration in those games and instead of panning United 7-0, we let them off the hook with a 4-1 win as we just let our concentration slide.

Also once we get leads in the title race we've always blown them and found ourselves coming from behind or just lagging behind for the remainder. Does our focus and concentration alter when we get into commanding positions?
 
It depends what you mean by mentally weak. I certainly think there's an element in our dressing room who are unable to cope with the pressure that being at a club like City challenging for honours that we are, and I don't mean often pointed examples like Nasri but more more protected players like Kompany and Silva. I also think this extends to large sections of the fanbase and it creates a feedback loop that makes the team nervous which makes the fans nervous which makes the team more nervous, etc.

The big thing I have taken away from those title runs seems to be different from other people. They see us coming back from 10 points back as a heroic achievement of pulling through when we're really under pressure. This isn't the reality as I perceive it, I see us unable to keep toe to toe with teams across a season and only when we're so far back that we're no longer expected to win it and all expectations have gone are we really able to perform to our highest standards. A standard that the teams under a Mourinho or Fergusion would have done without needing that pressure lifted in the last stages.

Our best run in both title seasons have always been once the title was pretty much gone and required spectacular collapses from others. You can see it in the Champions League too, where we are crippled by nerves and pressure and desire to do well to the point where the first signs of difficulty almost become an excuse for "here it goes again".

I have always put this at the door of Vincent Kompany who is the embodiment to me of the mental problems I see in the team. He's the definition of a person who believes that trying harder will make a situation better instead of the more mature approach that just calming down will make a situation better. I've had this conversation on here numerous times in previous seasons but will yet again point to his pre-season work - he thought the way to overcome his injury problems was again to do the only thing he knows how to do and try harder, get into the gym early, make himself stronger. Now he's injured again a few weeks into the new season. He has always had a rather immature view that comes through in every part of his game, you can see it when we go down and he's attempting to inspire the team not just by doing his job but by doing everybody else's too which whether anybody likes it or not means that he cannot be doing his job to the required standard. He attempts to charge around and cover for everyone which hangs him personally out to dry, and as a centre back he should be absolutely solid with his partner and let the full backs and defensive midfielders do their own job.

Kompany is the most English of centre backs despite being Belgian. Never seemingly understanding the value of calming down rather than ramping up.

You can argue many different causes over this, but I cannot think of a really high pressure game where Silva has displayed his incredible talent. Might be a slip of memory but he certainly isn't somebody who I think will be pulling us through in those games unlike an Aguero or a Yaya.

Yaya is a good example of the attitude that I'm talking about. Despite people screaming at him for waltzing around the pitch unlike Kompany who charges everywhere, he is rightfully recognised as one of the best midfielders in the world. He is arguably City's biggest "big game player", scoring in Finals, Semis, great performances in Europe here and there. Definitely can be criticised for his lack of consistency but he isn't a player who gets overawed by occasions. Aguero goes without saying.

I think it's sensible to now wonder if there's something inherently wrong with the spine of our team in regards to their ability to cope with the really tight occasions, often against the 11 man defence, or really high profile occasions where we need to go to Stamford Bridge and win, late in the season.

Winning all of our titles from 6-10 back has created a false narrative around us. We see ourselves as people who came back from the dead whereas more focus should be put on asking questions of how we managed to die in the first place, only performing after the pressure has subsided allowing us to take the trophy.
Very interesting post! I'd like to delve into knowing more about this than just from a fans point of view, i'd love to see the day to day within our squad. I really do agree with a lot of that.

Silva has been excellent in big games though. the 1-6, the games against Bayern we've had he's been a stand-out and recently against Chelsea he was something else - theyre just off the top of my head.
 
The problem with trying to extrapolate such a simplistic conclusion is that every football match is completely unique. Trying to assess why one thing happened in one match and then applying it to all other matches in which a similar at face value thing has happened is IMO very difficult to do with any real accuracy or insight.

I also think that the drip drip nit picking at the manager, the players, the executives and the owners of the club is becoming a bit tragic. This has also been an almost three year thing now and it's reaching the point where it's barely credible when compared with our actual success/failure on the pitch or off it. Don't get me wrong, as i often like to repeat, I'm not trying to censor anyone. People should post what they like. Personally though I can't help but cringe and just feel sorry for most of the critics both on the forum and in the media as they rarely cover themselves in glory or give any real insight, and mostly just repeat lazy cliches or try and extrapolate huge global conclusions from unique isolated incidents.

Such as - poor second half display against Spurs = We have a mentality problem.

Our record from losing positions or from being behind on the scoresheet is woeful Billy especially if behind at half time and this combined over the past two seasons but in particular in the past season or so in giving up leads totally unnecessarily in many cases suggests a mentality issue both individually and collectively.

Mind you so is Arsenal's but that's irrelevant to this discussion.

Damo's excellent piece recently on VK , ( Suggest you read it if you haven't ) touches on some of the misgivings of this group.

You might carry the can for believing this group with the new additions is capable of going very deep into Europe which has to be the next step in our progress naturally or you might not

Personally under this manager and with this set of players I don't hold much hope of it happening but I firmly believe in years to come it will happen.

As for the premiership again a similar pattern has developed over a reasonable length of time to go beyond "unique isolated incidents"( an oxymoron BTW ) to draw some conclusions about the mental state of the group.

No need to feel sorry or cringe Billy , just support any assertion or conclusion you wish to draw under the same set of data with some fact if it exists.

The evidence suggests we are front runners and fine when left to our devices but when sides some of them both individually and collectively not as talented as our group apply pressure , close down space , work harder etc most times we end up on the wrong end of things.

Flat track bully is an expression that comes to mind.

They can prove these doubters wrong by winning games of football when we fall behind in games ala Everton on Monday but I know your too perspective to answer by comparing us to Everton in terms of mental fragility especially on the back of one game as you say.
 
We are not, but we obviously do have an ability to switch off or lose discipline. The amount of 1 and 2 goal leads we have given up over the last few seasons shows that.

Not weak though. The spine of the team are born winners and that's why we look like half a team when they are out.
 
Our record from losing positions or from being behind on the scoresheet is woeful Billy especially if behind at half time and this combined over the past two seasons but in particular in the past season or so in giving up leads totally unnecessarily in many cases suggests a mentality issue both individually and collectively.

I'm with Billy and IMO your interpretaion of the data is misplaced.

Some facts:

in 2013/2014 and 2014/15 there were 13 occassions when we didn't overturn a losing position. In other words we lost. Teams do lose games and our record was good enough for a 1st place and a 2nd place. There were another 9 games when we didn't lose. In other words over 40% of the time we did overturn a losing position.

Our record when we have scored first has not been good under Pellegrini. It has been sensational. After the wobbly start under his tenure (we lost after scoring first at Cardiff and Villa) our record in the league since the Villa game and including this season has been W48 D6 L2. The 2 losses being United and Spurs which were of course marred with 4 offside goals,
 

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