We are not mentally weak

Damocles said:
If you completely ignore every single point made and then oversimplfy it to the point where it's no longer even an argument, then yes that is what is to blame.
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I do tend to ignore your points on Kompany and have for as long as you've been beating the "he's not captain material" drum.
 
We are mentally weak. We were top of the table and then lost to mediocre sides. Mentally strong sides ride through the tough times and come out with a win.
 
GaudinoMotors said:
Unfortunatley some will always take well meant and thought out observations as insulting criticisms.
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I didn't take Damocles post as insulting, not one bit. I always read with interest what he has to say (apart from anything to do with Kompany..) because as a rule he makes a lot of sense on a lot of subjects. He's actually one of my favourite posters.
That said, after nodding in agreement to the first couple of paragraphs I stopped when he said about the mental weakness, or perceived mental weakness - "I have always put this at the door of Vincent Kompany"
My reply was flippant in fairness but that's how I felt on reading the post.
 
I'm actually starting to think were one of the mentally toughest teams in Europe. We get fucked by officials both in England and Europe on a regular basis. Well smash the barcodes because of last weeks bent linos and whatever UEFA direct tonight.
 
Damocles said:
It depends what you mean by mentally weak. I certainly think there's an element in our dressing room who are unable to cope with the pressure that being at a club like City challenging for honours that we are, and I don't mean often pointed examples like Nasri but more more protected players like Kompany and Silva. I also think this extends to large sections of the fanbase and it creates a feedback loop that makes the team nervous which makes the fans nervous which makes the team more nervous, etc.

The big thing I have taken away from those title runs seems to be different from other people. They see us coming back from 10 points back as a heroic achievement of pulling through when we're really under pressure. This isn't the reality as I perceive it, I see us unable to keep toe to toe with teams across a season and only when we're so far back that we're no longer expected to win it and all expectations have gone are we really able to perform to our highest standards. A standard that the teams under a Mourinho or Fergusion would have done without needing that pressure lifted in the last stages.

Our best run in both title seasons have always been once the title was pretty much gone and required spectacular collapses from others. You can see it in the Champions League too, where we are crippled by nerves and pressure and desire to do well to the point where the first signs of difficulty almost become an excuse for "here it goes again".

I have always put this at the door of Vincent Kompany who is the embodiment to me of the mental problems I see in the team. He's the definition of a person who believes that trying harder will make a situation better instead of the more mature approach that just calming down will make a situation better. I've had this conversation on here numerous times in previous seasons but will yet again point to his pre-season work - he thought the way to overcome his injury problems was again to do the only thing he knows how to do and try harder, get into the gym early, make himself stronger. Now he's injured again a few weeks into the new season. He has always had a rather immature view that comes through in every part of his game, you can see it when we go down and he's attempting to inspire the team not just by doing his job but by doing everybody else's too which whether anybody likes it or not means that he cannot be doing his job to the required standard. He attempts to charge around and cover for everyone which hangs him personally out to dry, and as a centre back he should be absolutely solid with his partner and let the full backs and defensive midfielders do their own job.

Kompany is the most English of centre backs despite being Belgian. Never seemingly understanding the value of calming down rather than ramping up.

You can argue many different causes over this, but I cannot think of a really high pressure game where Silva has displayed his incredible talent. Might be a slip of memory but he certainly isn't somebody who I think will be pulling us through in those games unlike an Aguero or a Yaya.

Yaya is a good example of the attitude that I'm talking about. Despite people screaming at him for waltzing around the pitch unlike Kompany who charges everywhere, he is rightfully recognised as one of the best midfielders in the world. He is arguably City's biggest "big game player", scoring in Finals, Semis, great performances in Europe here and there. Definitely can be criticised for his lack of consistency but he isn't a player who gets overawed by occasions. Aguero goes without saying.

I think it's sensible to now wonder if there's something inherently wrong with the spine of our team in regards to their ability to cope with the really tight occasions, often against the 11 man defence, or really high profile occasions where we need to go to Stamford Bridge and win, late in the season.

Winning all of our titles from 6-10 back has created a false narrative around us. We see ourselves as people who came back from the dead whereas more focus should be put on asking questions of how we managed to die in the first place, only performing after the pressure has subsided allowing us to take the trophy.
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I don't want to focus on individual players but your points are well made.

I don't have time to comment at length on what I think is a fascinating topic and one that has been too easily dismissed by some, with shouts of don't listen to the media, who are irrelevant to my own views on this BTW. What I would say is that the team is much stonger technically than it is mentally and it has to improve on that front. By mentally, I mean everything that is not physical i.e. confidence, commitment, composure, attitude, determination etc.
 
I think you have to judge our mental strength by comparison with our achievements. If at the end of this season we've won 3 PL titles in 5 seasons and ended our CL underachievement then that would indicate to me that we have mental strength. If we've won 2 titles, despite having clearly the strongest squad in the PL over that period, and still not made significant progress in the CL then the accusation of mental weakness would seem valid.
 
OB1 said:
I don't want to focus on individual players but your points are well made.

I don't have time to comment at length on what I think is a fascinating topic and one that has been too easily dismissed by some, with shouts of don't listen to the media, who are irrelevant to my own views on this BTW. What I would say is that the team is much stonger technically than it is mentally and it has to improve on that front. By mentally, I mean everything that is not physical i.e. confidence, commitment, composure, attitude, determination etc.
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Agreed and you summarise it well.

We will not achieve what we want to until we get the levels of mentality that are required or get in players that have.

It's on this score side that the manager comes to the fore as well and maybe that is part of the problem.
 
Pablo1 said:
I didn't take Damocles post as insulting, not one bit. I always read with interest what he has to say (apart from anything to do with Kompany..) because as a rule he makes a lot of sense on a lot of subjects. He's actually one of my favourite posters.
That said, after nodding in agreement to the first couple of paragraphs I stopped when he said about the mental weakness, or perceived mental weakness - "I have always put this at the door of Vincent Kompany"
My reply was flippant in fairness but that's how I felt on reading the post.
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But I have always put it at his door because I believe that as not just the de jure leader of the team as Captain, but one of the longest serving players respected by all then his mental attitude tends to rub off on others and run downhill. His mental attitude as a key figure in that dressing room is ten times more influential for example than somebody like Gael Clichy who has been here for a length of time, seems a popular bloke and played lots of games for us. It's a bigger thing than him alone of course but he does have the power to pull us out of that just as the various managers and coaches we had did.

I've said on numerous occasions that this might just be a personal thing because I neither respond to or use Kompany's leadership style. His response to visibily trying harder isn't inspirational to me because it attempts to suggest that firstly I wasn't trying my best previously, and secondly that I'm a professional who needs large and dramatic shows of effort to get over the finishing line. I much prefer cool leaders who recognise the talents of those around them and understand that pressure is the ultimate enemy here rather than effort.

In the past I've used the soldiers under fire analogy. In that situation would you want a leader who is a bit Hollywood about everything and tries to inspire through grandiose speech or actions, or do you want a leader who says "keep calm lads, remember your training, concentrate on what you've been told and we'll all come out the other side here"?

My favourite example of this is actually from that Soriano lecture in Abu Dhabi where he talked about Guardiola and a Super Cup Final game where they went into extra time. Barca were constantly knocking on the door and just couldn't break it down against a tough Monaco defence. The players were losing their discipline and started "trying too hard" for lack of a better phrase. Here's what he said to them:



That to me is perfect and exactly what we need. "Don't play passes into the middle" (Barca's game is horseshoe football like ours now), "As always, play our way", "play with the ball", "they are playing for a counter and won't change, this is why more than ever we have to play our game", "we know how good we are, we know what we can do", "don't worry, have patience, don't go crazy, keep passing the ball, everybody has to keep playing the same passes, keep moving, keep being dangerous".

Constantly reinforcing to remain calm, constantly reinforcing the belief in his style of football, telling players that it will come if they let it.

Now here's Kompany talking about his ideas on leadership:



"I shout a lot", "be calm in those moments when you need to bring the message across", "fire the team up, I believe that is a really important role", "be more vocal". "We have some great players in the team, even if we're losing 4 or 5 nil we keep shouting "we need to run more" and the team does pick it up", "you've got to show it, shout it out that we're going to do it better", "you need to be the first person to fight fires on the pitch", "defend your teammates", "don't let them take advantage of you".

Constantly talking about fighting battles, about how more running, and more shouting is the key. Only needing to remain calm in those moment when you need to put across tactical messages.

This is my problem with Kompany, I believe that he's a great leader for 90% of games but there's 10% of games which are extreme pressure situations where his leadership actually hinders us more than it helps us and we need a calming influence rather than somebody who will attempt to put more energy and more effort into performances. And this creates that constant feedback loop that I think we see all the time where the team gets a bit more nervous energy so the crowd gets more nervous energy feeding it to each other. Which is great right up until something goes badly or a decision goes against us then it turns into anger and frustration at the referee or UEFA or some cheating player. Footballers and crowds form a symbiotic circle on a matchday where they feed off each other's energy and performance, something that isn't recognised enough either by the clubs or the fans ultimately.

I think in those situations a calming influence rather than somebody seeing the nervous energy then attempting to put that into a frenzy of activity is required which is why I've always had a bee in my bonnet about Kompany in those situations. He's not the only one obviously, Hart, Milner, Zab and others are just as culpable but none of them are the Captain and the man that we look to in a time of crisis on the pitch.
 
I think there's certainly an element of 'flat track bully' about a few of our players
 
Damocles said:
But I have always put it at his door because I believe that as not just the de jure leader of the team as Captain, but one of the longest serving players respected by all then his mental attitude tends to rub off on others and run downhill. His mental attitude as a key figure in that dressing room is ten times more influential for example than somebody like Gael Clichy who has been here for a length of time, seems a popular bloke and played lots of games for us. It's a bigger thing than him alone of course but he does have the power to pull us out of that just as the various managers and coaches we had did.

I've said on numerous occasions that this might just be a personal thing because I neither respond to or use Kompany's leadership style. His response to visibily trying harder isn't inspirational to me because it attempts to suggest that firstly I wasn't trying my best previously, and secondly that I'm a professional who needs large and dramatic shows of effort to get over the finishing line. I much prefer cool leaders who recognise the talents of those around them and understand that pressure is the ultimate enemy here rather than effort.

In the past I've used the soldiers under fire analogy. In that situation would you want a leader who is a bit Hollywood about everything and tries to inspire through grandiose speech or actions, or do you want a leader who says "keep calm lads, remember your training, concentrate on what you've been told and we'll all come out the other side here"?

My favourite example of this is actually from that Soriano lecture in Abu Dhabi where he talked about Guardiola and a Super Cup Final game where they went into extra time. Barca were constantly knocking on the door and just couldn't break it down against a tough Monaco defence. The players were losing their discipline and started "trying too hard" for lack of a better phrase. Here's what he said to them:



That to me is perfect and exactly what we need. "Don't play passes into the middle" (Barca's game is horseshoe football like ours now), "As always, play our way", "play with the ball", "they are playing for a counter and won't change, this is why more than ever we have to play our game", "we know how good we are, we know what we can do", "don't worry, have patience, don't go crazy, keep passing the ball, everybody has to keep playing the same passes, keep moving, keep being dangerous".

Constantly reinforcing to remain calm, constantly reinforcing the belief in his style of football, telling players that it will come if they let it.

Now here's Kompany talking about his ideas on leadership:



"I shout a lot", "be calm in those moments when you need to bring the message across", "fire the team up, I believe that is a really important role", "be more vocal". "We have some great players in the team, even if we're losing 4 or 5 nil we keep shouting "we need to run more" and the team does pick it up", "you've got to show it, shout it out that we're going to do it better", "you need to be the first person to fight fires on the pitch", "defend your teammates", "don't let them take advantage of you".

Constantly talking about fighting battles, about how more running, and more shouting is the key. Only needing to remain calm in those moment when you need to put across tactical messages.

This is my problem with Kompany, I believe that he's a great leader for 90% of games but there's 10% of games which are extreme pressure situations where his leadership actually hinders us more than it helps us and we need a calming influence rather than somebody who will attempt to put more energy and more effort into performances. And this creates that constant feedback loop that I think we see all the time where the team gets a bit more nervous energy so the crowd gets more nervous energy feeding it to each other. Which is great right up until something goes badly or a decision goes against us then it turns into anger and frustration at the referee or UEFA or some cheating player. Footballers and crowds form a symbiotic circle on a matchday where they feed off each other's energy and performance, something that isn't recognised enough either by the clubs or the fans ultimately.

I think in those situations a calming influence rather than somebody seeing the nervous energy then attempting to put that into a frenzy of activity is required which is why I've always had a bee in my bonnet about Kompany in those situations. He's not the only one obviously, Hart, Milner, Zab and others are just as culpable but none of them are the Captain and the man that we look to in a time of crisis on the pitch.
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Damocles said:
But I have always put it at his door because I believe that as not just the de jure leader of the team as Captain, but one of the longest serving players respected by all then his mental attitude tends to rub off on others and run downhill. His mental attitude as a key figure in that dressing room is ten times more influential for example than somebody like Gael Clichy who has been here for a length of time, seems a popular bloke and played lots of games for us. It's a bigger thing than him alone of course but he does have the power to pull us out of that just as the various managers and coaches we had did.

I've said on numerous occasions that this might just be a personal thing because I neither respond to or use Kompany's leadership style. His response to visibily trying harder isn't inspirational to me because it attempts to suggest that firstly I wasn't trying my best previously, and secondly that I'm a professional who needs large and dramatic shows of effort to get over the finishing line. I much prefer cool leaders who recognise the talents of those around them and understand that pressure is the ultimate enemy here rather than effort.

In the past I've used the soldiers under fire analogy. In that situation would you want a leader who is a bit Hollywood about everything and tries to inspire through grandiose speech or actions, or do you want a leader who says "keep calm lads, remember your training, concentrate on what you've been told and we'll all come out the other side here"?

My favourite example of this is actually from that Soriano lecture in Abu Dhabi where he talked about Guardiola and a Super Cup Final game where they went into extra time. Barca were constantly knocking on the door and just couldn't break it down against a tough Monaco defence. The players were losing their discipline and started "trying too hard" for lack of a better phrase. Here's what he said to them:



That to me is perfect and exactly what we need. "Don't play passes into the middle" (Barca's game is horseshoe football like ours now), "As always, play our way", "play with the ball", "they are playing for a counter and won't change, this is why more than ever we have to play our game", "we know how good we are, we know what we can do", "don't worry, have patience, don't go crazy, keep passing the ball, everybody has to keep playing the same passes, keep moving, keep being dangerous".

Constantly reinforcing to remain calm, constantly reinforcing the belief in his style of football, telling players that it will come if they let it.

Now here's Kompany talking about his ideas on leadership:



"I shout a lot", "be calm in those moments when you need to bring the message across", "fire the team up, I believe that is a really important role", "be more vocal". "We have some great players in the team, even if we're losing 4 or 5 nil we keep shouting "we need to run more" and the team does pick it up", "you've got to show it, shout it out that we're going to do it better", "you need to be the first person to fight fires on the pitch", "defend your teammates", "don't let them take advantage of you".

Constantly talking about fighting battles, about how more running, and more shouting is the key. Only needing to remain calm in those moment when you need to put across tactical messages.

This is my problem with Kompany, I believe that he's a great leader for 90% of games but there's 10% of games which are extreme pressure situations where his leadership actually hinders us more than it helps us and we need a calming influence rather than somebody who will attempt to put more energy and more effort into performances. And this creates that constant feedback loop that I think we see all the time where the team gets a bit more nervous energy so the crowd gets more nervous energy feeding it to each other. Which is great right up until something goes badly or a decision goes against us then it turns into anger and frustration at the referee or UEFA or some cheating player. Footballers and crowds form a symbiotic circle on a matchday where they feed off each other's energy and performance, something that isn't recognised enough either by the clubs or the fans ultimately.

I think in those situations a calming influence rather than somebody seeing the nervous energy then attempting to put that into a frenzy of activity is required which is why I've always had a bee in my bonnet about Kompany in those situations. He's not the only one obviously, Hart, Milner, Zab and others are just as culpable but none of them are the Captain and the man that we look to in a time of crisis on the pitch.
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Something i've noticed is that Kompany is no where near as vocal on the pitch as what he was during our first title win, i think he's lost that aura he used to carry to be honest
 
Watched the second half of the WBA - Everton game last night. Everton were the better team but went 2-0 down. Then they got their heads down, went for it and won 3-2. I can only recall two away games in the last three seasons (Sunderland last season and Everton the season before) where we went behind and came back to win. I can recall far more where we threw away 2 goal leads or threw away points when we'd been leading. Also plenty of games we've won but where we've taken our foot off the gas. The 4-1 v the rags springs to mind, where we were 4 up in 50 minutes and just relaxed.

Whatever Macini's faults, I don't recall that being the case under him too often. So a lot of the blame must be on Pellegrini I think as it's his job to fashion the right mentality and get rid of players who don't have it. But I'm also sick of hearing players in the media saying that such-and-such a setback will make them stronger or that the latest defeat will spur them on, then playing like a bunch of puddings then next game.
 
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I'm inclined to agree that there's been a lack of fortitude. Not always, not in every difficult situation, every time, but often enough where it is a concern. We seem to particularly struggle with being frontrunners, and tend to collapse either just when we've caught someone up/when we have the chance to take our lead out of sight.
 
Prestwich_Blue said:
But I'm also sick of hearing players in the media saying that such-and-such a setback will make them stronger or that the latest defeat will spur them on, then playing like a bunch of puddings then next game.
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One of my pet peeves also PB. I understand the lads have to do interviews as part of the dog and pony show, but these soundbites promising much then showing up and delivering the exact opposite do my head in.
 
All we expect is effort and given the quality of the footballers when the effort and commitment is there we are usually ok but no doubt the players have not learnt how to put games to bed when they should be or how to cope when trailing to get back into games on the scoreboard and part of that comes from the managers ability to make the decisions that change the coarse of the game in our favour but part of that also comes from the players heads to not accept the situation and work there way around it or through it as the case may be.
 
Damocles said:
But I have always put it at his door because I believe that as not just the de jure leader of the team as Captain, but one of the longest serving players respected by all then his mental attitude tends to rub off on others and run downhill. His mental attitude as a key figure in that dressing room is ten times more influential for example than somebody like Gael Clichy who has been here for a length of time, seems a popular bloke and played lots of games for us. It's a bigger thing than him alone of course but he does have the power to pull us out of that just as the various managers and coaches we had did.

I've said on numerous occasions that this might just be a personal thing because I neither respond to or use Kompany's leadership style. His response to visibily trying harder isn't inspirational to me because it attempts to suggest that firstly I wasn't trying my best previously, and secondly that I'm a professional who needs large and dramatic shows of effort to get over the finishing line. I much prefer cool leaders who recognise the talents of those around them and understand that pressure is the ultimate enemy here rather than effort.

In the past I've used the soldiers under fire analogy. In that situation would you want a leader who is a bit Hollywood about everything and tries to inspire through grandiose speech or actions, or do you want a leader who says "keep calm lads, remember your training, concentrate on what you've been told and we'll all come out the other side here"?

My favourite example of this is actually from that Soriano lecture in Abu Dhabi where he talked about Guardiola and a Super Cup Final game where they went into extra time. Barca were constantly knocking on the door and just couldn't break it down against a tough Monaco defence. The players were losing their discipline and started "trying too hard" for lack of a better phrase. Here's what he said to them:



That to me is perfect and exactly what we need. "Don't play passes into the middle" (Barca's game is horseshoe football like ours now), "As always, play our way", "play with the ball", "they are playing for a counter and won't change, this is why more than ever we have to play our game", "we know how good we are, we know what we can do", "don't worry, have patience, don't go crazy, keep passing the ball, everybody has to keep playing the same passes, keep moving, keep being dangerous".

Constantly reinforcing to remain calm, constantly reinforcing the belief in his style of football, telling players that it will come if they let it.

Now here's Kompany talking about his ideas on leadership:



"I shout a lot", "be calm in those moments when you need to bring the message across", "fire the team up, I believe that is a really important role", "be more vocal". "We have some great players in the team, even if we're losing 4 or 5 nil we keep shouting "we need to run more" and the team does pick it up", "you've got to show it, shout it out that we're going to do it better", "you need to be the first person to fight fires on the pitch", "defend your teammates", "don't let them take advantage of you".

Constantly talking about fighting battles, about how more running, and more shouting is the key. Only needing to remain calm in those moment when you need to put across tactical messages.

This is my problem with Kompany, I believe that he's a great leader for 90% of games but there's 10% of games which are extreme pressure situations where his leadership actually hinders us more than it helps us and we need a calming influence rather than somebody who will attempt to put more energy and more effort into performances. And this creates that constant feedback loop that I think we see all the time where the team gets a bit more nervous energy so the crowd gets more nervous energy feeding it to each other. Which is great right up until something goes badly or a decision goes against us then it turns into anger and frustration at the referee or UEFA or some cheating player. Footballers and crowds form a symbiotic circle on a matchday where they feed off each other's energy and performance, something that isn't recognised enough either by the clubs or the fans ultimately.

I think in those situations a calming influence rather than somebody seeing the nervous energy then attempting to put that into a frenzy of activity is required which is why I've always had a bee in my bonnet about Kompany in those situations. He's not the only one obviously, Hart, Milner, Zab and others are just as culpable but none of them are the Captain and the man that we look to in a time of crisis on the pitch.
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totally agree. This is where I think Demichelis has been pivotal at times. The most professional, pragmatic and calculating display we've put in as a team under Pellegrini was him leading the defence against Hull after Kompany was sent off.

I admire his passion and commitment but if we're looking to Toure and Kompany for stability and a decisive intelligence we are looking in the wrong place imo. I do wonder how the other players would respond to Fernandinho being given more of a commanding role, has all the ingredients for me.
 
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