What has the UK become?

[Chippy_boy]

That’s why they should be taxed more. ;-)

I'm all for fair taxes. And that means people on £40k, £50k, £60k paying more as well as people on £100k, £200k, £1m.

What sticks in my craw is people on middle incomes who seem to think that "the rich" should bear all the additional burden. And I say that as someone on middle income! Our basic rate of tax is IMO too low. Our VAT rates are too high. Our personal allowances are too low. No-one on £15k to £20k a year should be paying any tax at all - that's ludicrous. But the starting rate should be more like 25% IMO. We could throw a vast amount of money at the NHS and public services if we upped the basic rate by a few pence.

 

[Berts Neck]

I will give you my thoughts on the UK as a product of parents who came to the country after WW2 from Poland. In general it is a most welcoming place to live. A great country. My parents and family came with nothing and through absolutely sheer hard work and self sacrifice gave my sister and I a good upbringing and education.
We integrated into society. They asked for nothing and got nothing. So I became a GP. Worked mostly in Kent. Kent bore the brunt of the cross channel crossings. I met many people who came to work and better themselves. Yes, indeed they have the crappest jobs.But the kindest people you could meet. There was a group of people who days after landing on our shores came to see me with an interpreter. They had been given accommodation when locally it was impossible for people to get the same level of care. Young men mostly demanding total body MRI's, blood tests. I would explain that unless they were sick, I could not do it, and the interpreter would stare at me in total disbelief, I was cruel. This sense of entitlement fostered a complete resentment locally as there seemed to be a two tier system for local people and people who had just come to the country. I still hear it every day with workmen who visit the house(In Congleton now).I really feel these individuals are a minority.
I feel that we are one of the most accepting and multi-cultural nations in the West. There are elements who have no intention to work, not to mention the politically/religious motivated immigrants. Embrace people, try not to judge, and be proud of what we have achieved. Not perfect, but far better than most.

 

[threespires]

I thought this report was interesting. Basically we've become a place where the desire and abilty of the few to both hoard and acquire wealth has hamstrung our economy to the point we are falling behind our once peers.

Equality Trust Releases Cost of Inequality Report | The Equality Trust

Over the last few decades, the UK's inequality has increased rapidly. We're all familiar with the headlines – record profits and CEO pay, billionaire wealth spiralling out of control, luxury developments in our cities. In 2023, the UK’s 171 billionaires now hold as much wealth as over 40 million...

equalitytrust.org.uk

 

[The Future’s Blue!]

Too busy gammoning about migrants than actually getting on with the job of running the country.

That dead cat is really beginning to rot.

 

[inbetween]

I'm all for fair taxes. And that means people on £40k, £50k, £60k paying more as well as people on £100k, £200k, £1m.

What sticks in my craw is people on middle incomes who seem to think that "the rich" should bear all the additional burden. And I say that as someone on middle income! Our basic rate of tax is IMO too low. Our VAT rates are too high. Our personal allowances are too low. No-one on £15k to £20k a year should be paying any tax at all - that's ludicrous. But the starting rate should be more like 25% IMO. We could through a vast amount of money at the NHS and public services if we upped the basic rate by a few pence.

Ask somebody on £20k how much they need to be comfortable and they'd probably say £50k. Ask someone on £50k how much they need to be comfortable and they'd say £100k. That number will keep increasing until infinity. Paying tax just means your money is taken and the perception is you're 'less' comfortable so of course nobody wants to pay it.

This is the result of a growth led economy. I think we'd have a much richer society if we decoupled from growth and tried to conserve what we have and make it better. If not then we're all chasing unachievable goals. You can tax the rich more/less or tax the poor more/less, none of it really matters because changing the ratio between taxation and spending will not solve any of the problems that we face.

We need to have an honest conversation about growth. Successive governments have worked to prioritise growth at all costs. Why do we need growth though? The leading evidence on issues such as mental health prove that the growth of material wealth for example is meaningless beyond a certain bar and that bar is set a lot lower than you'd think.

The current situation is rapidly becoming unsustainable because we can barely sustain ourselves in our own situations, the cost of living crisis proved how fragile we are. You then have problems like climate change which are impossible to solve because we're outgrowing and exponentially contributing more to the problem.

 

[BrianW]

A no-growth economy might work, but it would need a total reset of attitudes which I think (highly) unlikely.

The current alleged paradigm - note, I say 'alleged' - is that if you 'work hard' you will be rewarded with a better standard of living and all the toys you want.

This is not sustainable in a no-growth economy. Such an economy would need to start with a belief that each individual must have the basics - a home, food, and healthcare. What was left would then be shared in some way. It might be linked to 'hard work' whether past or current, but it would have to be capped because the sort of rewards where you end up with a manor house and three Bentleys could not be afforded. You would also need to provide essential services such as education and public transport, all of which would need to be affordable to the poorest.

Such a society sounds remarkably like a form of socialism. Or at least like the post-war consensus, under which high earners were heavily taxed and there was not an immense gap between rich and poor.

To deliver this politically, with the Daily Mail and its ilk against you - good luck!

 

[Chippy_boy]

Ask somebody on £20k how much they need to be comfortable and they'd probably say £50k. Ask someone on £50k how much they need to be comfortable and they'd say £100k. That number will keep increasing until infinity. Paying tax just means your money is taken and the perception is you're 'less' comfortable so of course nobody wants to pay it.

This is the result of a growth led economy. I think we'd have a much richer society if we decoupled from growth and tried to conserve what we have and make it better. If not then we're all chasing unachievable goals. You can tax the rich more/less or tax the poor more/less, none of it really matters because changing the ratio between taxation and spending will not solve any of the problems that we face.

We need to have an honest conversation about growth. Successive governments have worked to prioritise growth at all costs. Why do we need growth though? The leading evidence on issues such as mental health prove that the growth of material wealth for example is meaningless beyond a certain bar and that bar is set a lot lower than you'd think.

The current situation is rapidly becoming unsustainable because we can barely sustain ourselves in our own situations, the cost of living crisis proved how fragile we are. You then have problems like climate change which are impossible to solve because we're outgrowing and exponentially contributing more to the problem.

Wow. that's a big topic and probably something that deserves serious consideration in the 22nd century (seriously, I am not joking).

Unfortunately the entire world in the 21st century is driven by growth. It's a flawed system in many ways I agree. It's what makes TGI Fridays shite when once it was great. Start out with £12 for the most magnificent 10oz New York Strip steak you've had in the UK and after 26 "improvements" in order to increase profits its a shoddy bit of shoe leather for £21.50 that you wouldn't give to your cat. In a place that needs condemning.

So much for capitalism. But as I say, a debate for 80 years time not now. Whilst the world is stuck on this treadmill, we cannot get off it or we'd be impoverished forever.

 

[inbetween]

Wow. that's a big topic and probably something that deserves serious consideration in the 22nd century (seriously, I am not joking).

Unfortunately the entire world in the 21st century is driven by growth. It's a flawed system in many ways I agree. It's what makes TGI Fridays shite when once it was great. Start out with £12 for the most magnificent 10oz New York Strip steak you've had in the UK and after 26 "improvements" in order to increase profits its a shoddy bit of shoe leather for £21.50 that you wouldn't give to your cat. In a place that needs condemning.

So much for capitalism. But as I say, a debate for 80 years time not now. Whilst the world is stuck on this treadmill, we cannot get off it or we'd be impoverished forever.

The weird thing is that growth is a very new concept for humans. Humans existed without growth for thousands of years, that growth only became exponential in the last century or two. It has brought incredible advances and an obviously huge increase in living standards but the disadvantages are slowly creeping upon us.

Look at the events of the last 4 years. It only took a war in Ukraine and the aftershock from that to bring our gas supply to its knees. We previously could get gas just offshore but that gas is no longer viable and there isn't enough of it to satisfy demand. You'd of said 4 years ago how the hell can a country in the 21st century not cope with a pandemic caused by a disease that kills less than 0.1% of people? But we didn't cope.

Some of the biggest problems that we will come to face as a society and economy whether that's food security, energy or climate are coming to exist purely because of the right hand side of the graph below. It's very tin foil hat I agree and I have no idea what the solution is but at the moment it seems we have to continue and rather hope that it will be fine. Gladly I'll be dead by then but christ knows what the future looks like.

 

[mexico1970]

The weird thing is that growth is a very new concept for humans. Humans existed without growth for thousands of years, that growth only became exponential in the last century or two. It has brought incredible advances and an obviously huge increase in living standards but the disadvantages are slowly creeping upon us.

Look at the events of the last 4 years. It only took a war in Ukraine and the aftershock from that to bring our gas supply to its knees. We previously could get gas just offshore but that gas is no longer viable and there isn't enough of it to satisfy demand. You'd of said 4 years ago how the hell can a country in the 21st century not cope with a pandemic caused by a disease that kills less than 0.1% of people? But we didn't cope.

Some of the biggest problems that we will come to face as a society and economy whether that's food security, energy or climate are coming to exist purely because of the right hand side of the graph below. It's very tin foil hat I agree and I have no idea what the solution is but at the moment it seems we have to continue and rather hope that it will be fine. Gladly I'll be dead by then but christ knows what the future looks like.

We are a virus that is slowly but surely killing its host, there is no antidote for human selfishness and greed.

It'll all be down to the last man standing, coughing and spluttering his/her/their way into an early grave and blaming somebody else for it.

 

[Chippy_boy]

The weird thing is that growth is a very new concept for humans. Humans existed without growth for thousands of years, that growth only became exponential in the last century or two. It has brought incredible advances and an obviously huge increase in living standards but the disadvantages are slowly creeping upon us.

Look at the events of the last 4 years. It only took a war in Ukraine and the aftershock from that to bring our gas supply to its knees. We previously could get gas just offshore but that gas is no longer viable and there isn't enough of it to satisfy demand. You'd of said 4 years ago how the hell can a country in the 21st century not cope with a pandemic caused by a disease that kills less than 0.1% of people? But we didn't cope.

Some of the biggest problems that we will come to face as a society and economy whether that's food security, energy or climate are coming to exist purely because of the right hand side of the graph below. It's very tin foil hat I agree and I have no idea what the solution is but at the moment it seems we have to continue and rather hope that it will be fine. Gladly I'll be dead by then but christ knows what the future looks like.

I wouldn't exactly say you can "relax" but world population is only growing so rapidly because it's cultural to have like 10 kids in some countries (e.g. half of Africa) because historically, half of them died before they are 5 and half of the rest before they were 30.

As standards of living, nutrition, heathcare and life expectancy increase, so does the need to have 10 kids. We've seen huge reductions in birth rates in various countries as these changes come about.

And on that basis, it is expected that the world population will peak at around 11bn. Feeding that many people is not exactly a walk in the park, but with modern farming methods and new technologies like synthetic protein-based "meat", then it is sustainable.