When did it all start to go wrong?

[Dribble]

I'd just like to make it clear, as I said to another poster in a pm, that Mancini had us much better organised than Pellegrini has ever achieved. As a highly paid professional there is no excuse for the seeming lack of organisation and preparation that our team currently exhibits. So I've no problem with Mancini from a pure footballing viewpoint.

I said my view was that it all started to unravel during the second half in Moscow this season and that hasn't changed. But where it all started to go wrong as a club was in the immediate aftermath of the 2012 title win. It's been mentioned on here before but Mancini handed his notice in in the days following that, largely over his refusal to work under a DoF. We spent 2 months trying to persuade him to stay and had a poor summer in the transfer market as a result. We also went into the new season with two key people, one of who wouldn't work with the other, which clearly impacted us and led to the farce of the FA Cup final. Pellegrini was a stop-gap who had any initial impact but eventually has undone the organisation of the team under Mancini. What we need to start getting back on track is a clear out of those senior players who won't give 100% every game, together with a youngish manager who can man-manage effectively and can build a new, younger squad that can perform as a team. I'd take a trophy-less season or two if that set us up for the longer term.

That's a better balanced post which is hard to disagree with.

+1

May I add, Khaldoon should have made sure Mancini & Txiki could work together before he employed one or sacked the other which would have saved the club all the bullshit that followed.

That is what's called strong management. In defence of Mancini, he was doing just fine before Txiki rocked up & turned his world upside down. Just imagine the scenes at The Emirates or Old Toilet if Txiki had turned up there as their new DoF, what do you reckon would have been the response from Wenger or Ferguson?

It was a complete lack of respect being shown to a title winning champion manager and as history is beginning to show our upper level management & owner are not immune from making errors. Having said that, he who pays the piper and all that.......

 

[avoidconfusion]

Not backing Mancini properly after we won the League. That's where it all went wrong. We were ahead of everyone and should made sure we stay ahead. Instead we went on to buy shithouses like Rodwell.

If you read my post you'll see that's not really how it was but that never stops people trotting it out. Mancini basically walked out on us for 2 months plus there were good reasons why we didn't get his main targets, none of which were to do with "not backing Mancini properly".

Hadn't read your post. Where do you have that info from? Either way, surely we should have been able to get better players that Garcia and Rodwell!

 

[TCIB]

Some good answers and sound reasoning here and they will all have contributed.
I find in life the seed gets sewn before most people have any idea what could even be. Then the hand wringing and soul searching starts.

I think a few players are done, we have been to soft with players in the past, transfers have been dodgy and the manager is well suited to this holistic stuff but the prem is not it would seem. If we gave 7-10 years we would see Txiki make barca mk2 but you won't get that time here.

 

[dancity19]

If we are talking about this season, then the warning signs were there in the Charity Shield...!

 

[dancity19]

It hasn't really "all" gone wrong though has it ? Twice champions, once runners up, FA Cup and League Cup winners and FA Cup finalists in the last 4 years.

If we're talking about this season since the turn of the year, in my view, what we're seeing is the inevitable result of FFP. After we won the league for the first time we were hamstrung in who we could sign without having had time to establish an infrastructure to identify young and cheaper talent. We were held to ransom over transfer fees as everyone knew we a) had to buy and quick, b) had to buy English and c) appeared to have pots of money. That's how we ended up with Rodwell and Sinclair, not through any ill-will towards Mancini.

Since then, it has been a matter of trying to balance the squad whilst being out of the market for the top players but held to ransom for the middling players. Fernando and Mangala may come good but 5 or 6 teams seriously challenging for the top 4 is unusual and there is no time for them to acclimatize.

At the same time, the relentless negative publicity and UEFA's implication that we have, somehow, cheated has permeated through to the club. Imagine being a Spanish player coming to England and getting zero credit for winning the league, simply an unprecedented financial penalty and restrictions on transfer fees, wages, sponsorship deals. And don't tell me that this doesn't affect the players, Vinnie commented on FFP only this week. They know it has been put in place to stop us. It won't, but, in my view it will have to be a longer term project and that will be a lot healthier than doing what we had to do.

We may fall out of the Champions League this season but that does not have the finality some people like to torment themselves with.

Agree with parts of this. BUT, we have still spent a fair bit of money, and it has been spent averagely at best. Apart from Fernandinho, and arguably Demi has actually improved our 11.

Re Mangala and acclimatisation - he is up there as one of the most expensive CBs ever isn't he? There is no way you should be spending that kind of money on a CB who needs at least a season to acclimatise. That is a key issue for me. Whilst we have been hamstrung by FFP, our money last summer was not spend wisely. When there is a budget, to go and spend about 2/3 of it on a player in a key position, where we needed improvement, who needs at least a season to acclimatise is ridiculous. Granted, it can be argued that a better manager would have got more out of him - who knows.

Plus, the owners don't want to go around spending silly money every summer. Ideally, yes, they would have spent more than we did, but to spend that kind of money on a CB, and for him to have absolutely diddly squat impact is unacceptable. This isn't a dig at Mangala, might I add -he, of course, didn't ask for that transfer fee.

 

[Silva_Spell]

I'd just like to make it clear, as I said to another poster in a pm, that Mancini had us much better organised than Pellegrini has ever achieved. As a highly paid professional there is no excuse for the seeming lack of organisation and preparation that our team currently exhibits. So I've no problem with Mancini from a pure footballing viewpoint.

I said my view was that it all started to unravel during the second half in Moscow this season and that hasn't changed. But where it all started to go wrong as a club was in the immediate aftermath of the 2012 title win. It's been mentioned on here before but Mancini handed his notice in in the days following that, largely over his refusal to work under a DoF. We spent 2 months trying to persuade him to stay and had a poor summer in the transfer market as a result. We also went into the new season with two key people, one of who wouldn't work with the other, which clearly impacted us and led to the farce of the FA Cup final. Pellegrini was a stop-gap who had any initial impact but eventually has undone the organisation of the team under Mancini. What we need to start getting back on track is a clear out of those senior players who won't give 100% every game, together with a youngish manager who can man-manage effectively and can build a new, younger squad that can perform as a team. I'd take a trophy-less season or two if that set us up for the longer term.

That's a better balanced post which is hard to disagree with.

+1

May I add, Khaldoon should have made sure Mancini & Txiki could work together before he employed one or sacked the other which would have saved the club all the bullshit that followed.

That is what's called strong management. In defence of Mancini, he was doing just fine before Txiki rocked up & turned his world upside down. Just imagine the scenes at The Emirates or Old Toilet if Txiki had turned up there as their new DoF, what do you reckon would have been the response from Wenger or Ferguson?

It was a complete lack of respect being shown to a title winning champion manager and as history is beginning to show our upper level management & owner are not immune from making errors. Having said that, he who pays the piper and all that.......

Mancini was feuding with Marwood before Txiki joined

 

[Shirley]

If we are talking about this season, then the warning signs were there in the Charity Shield...!

That game was described as a meaningless friendly to gain fitness levels, by many on here.

 

[dancity19]

If we are talking about this season, then the warning signs were there in the Charity Shield...!

That game was described as a meaningless friendly to gain fitness levels, by many on here.

It's probably meaningless in terms of a trophy win. And at the time it may appear meaningless. But I guess if you look back - and hindsight is a great thing- it all fits. We looked so lethargic, pathetic, disinterested, compared to Arsenal who looked fitter, sharper and more up for it - and this showed and they brushed us aside.

It is difficult to place that much importance on these games at the time, for the reason you say above, but really, we have performed like that pretty much all season. There were warning signs then, simple. Anyone who was there will have been disappointed with that performance, regardless of the 'importance'.

 

[The Northern Baptist]

It hasn't really "all" gone wrong though has it ? Twice champions, once runners up, FA Cup and League Cup winners and FA Cup finalists in the last 4 years.

If we're talking about this season since the turn of the year, in my view, what we're seeing is the inevitable result of FFP. After we won the league for the first time we were hamstrung in who we could sign without having had time to establish an infrastructure to identify young and cheaper talent. We were held to ransom over transfer fees as everyone knew we a) had to buy and quick, b) had to buy English and c) appeared to have pots of money. That's how we ended up with Rodwell and Sinclair, not through any ill-will towards Mancini.

Since then, it has been a matter of trying to balance the squad whilst being out of the market for the top players but held to ransom for the middling players. Fernando and Mangala may come good but 5 or 6 teams seriously challenging for the top 4 is unusual and there is no time for them to acclimatize.

At the same time, the relentless negative publicity and UEFA's implication that we have, somehow, cheated has permeated through to the club. Imagine being a Spanish player coming to England and getting zero credit for winning the league, simply an unprecedented financial penalty and restrictions on transfer fees, wages, sponsorship deals. And don't tell me that this doesn't affect the players, Vinnie commented on FFP only this week. They know it has been put in place to stop us. It won't, but, in my view it will have to be a longer term project and that will be a lot healthier than doing what we had to do.

We may fall out of the Champions League this season but that does not have the finality some people like to torment themselves with.

I've not read the rest of the thread yet, but how can you blame FFP rules?

Look at the money that has been spent and has been wasted. Look at the lack of quality in United's starting 11 on sunday compared to ours.

Is it FFP rules that are making Yaya play so shit and not put any effort in?

Fucking think about it ffs

 

[Scaring Europe to Death]

If we are talking about this season, then the warning signs were there in the Charity Shield...!

That game was described as a meaningless friendly to gain fitness levels, by many on here.

It's probably meaningless in terms of a trophy win. And at the time it may appear meaningless. But I guess if you look back - and hindsight is a great thing- it all fits. We looked so lethargic, pathetic, disinterested, compared to Arsenal who looked fitter, sharper and more up for it - and this showed and they brushed us aside.

It is difficult to place that much importance on these games at the time, for the reason you say above, but really, we have performed like that pretty much all season. There were warning signs then, simple. Anyone who was there will have been disappointed with that performance, regardless of the 'importance'.

I think the main problem is that it wasn't hindsight.
A lot of posters, were slaughtered after the Charity Shield, the Stoke defeat, and even after the 1-0 win over the rags,(always by the same people, with the same tedious insults)

We threw it away in Moscow, and then looked totally disinterested at West Ham and QPR.

A big red herring saw Chelsea lose at Newcastle and Spurs, but even then, we were struggling against Burnley and Sunderland.

I take no pleasure, but this season has been death by a thousand cuts.