Yaya

[FantasyIreland]

He makes a fair point, the English football mindset places too much emphasis on players wasting energy chasing lost causes, players who choose leave the lost causes and save their energy for more productive thing are often accused of 'not looking interested', Yaya and Balotelli are prime examples.

To use one example,i give you Berbatov.

He was typical of the 'style' you describe.

However,once Taggert got his hands on him,we see a different player - he has suddenly added a workrate to his game.
My point being - those traits are not mutually exclusive - they can often be a choice.

 

[lastmanback]

Why do people assume when you say get stuck in, you mean leg break tackles, run around like headless chickens etc etc. We are at present seeing one of the best examples of get stuck in when you watch Barcelona play. Nobody is hiding all working to the best of there ability. If you lose the ball don't just assume someone else will cover. Defend from the front. Dax777. You defend Yaya and his hot and cold performance, then make little of the efforts of Tevez's in only winning throw in for reading. But surly by making the tackle gives us chance to re group. Your obviously highly impressed with Yaya and deeply offended with criticism of him. I like him think he's great for our team but like all player's at the moment. could try to be more consistent. And that's not bias.

 

[remoh]

Simon, I'm going to get slated for this but to me he's a big problem. We play him as the attacking midfielder, middle of the three. He is one of the big reasons why our build up play is so ponderous and slow. He is slow on the ball and a very negative passer. I don't think his vision's brilliant. I don't think he finds space very well.

He's got something, you can see that. At home he becomes the target for the goal kicks and wins a few. When he gets going, like a supertanker, he can shift. But these runs he makes are rarely productive. I had really high hopes for him when he arrived as his passing in the pre-season looked superb. He can hit the ball too, but rarely accurately.

I don't think he fits well into the premiership due to the amount of time he appears to need on the ball - the same way that Robinho couldn't. Obviously he's a hugely different player but it's the pace and directness of the premiership which some players can't cope with.

I can't really see where he fits in our system either. He's be better in a 4-4-2 or on the right side of a midfield diamond.

Controversial I know, but I think he fills the space Silva should be in, particularly at home. I think when AJ returns we should look to drop him. I know many thing he should play alongside NDJ, and I know he's played there in the past, but he hasn't really impressed me when he's played there either.

A disappointing signing for me if I'm honest. Yesterday encapsulated all my points above to me.

Really good post, this.


Dax:
You accuse DD and anyone who criticises Yaya, of bias. Why should any of us be biased against him? DD just called it as he saw it.

 

[sweep]

He makes a fair point, the English football mindset places too much emphasis on players wasting energy chasing lost causes, players who choose leave the lost causes and save their energy for more productive thing are often accused of 'not looking interested', Yaya and Balotelli are prime examples.

To use one example,i give you Berbatov.

He was typical of the 'style' you describe.

However,once Taggert got his hands on him,we see a different player - he has suddenly added a workrate to his game.
My point being - those traits are not mutually exclusive - they can often be a choice.

Of course they're not mutually exclusive and of course workrate is important, there needs to be a balance though and that's why I used the the words "too much emphasis". It irritates me when you hear idiots coming out with shit like 'Look at the way he chased that lost cause - brilliant!', they're called lost causes for a reason, they're a waste of valuable energy.

 

[mr t]

Yaya covers loads of ground during every game - he's deceptive cos he looks slow but he's all over the shop and can turn up the heat and sprint with the best of them when he wants to.

What I like about him is the way that when fucks up or he gives the ball away he tries harder than ever to win it back to the point of fouling his opponent - shows great commitment and looks as though he hates losing.

 

[Dax777]

These English media type comments always leaves me cracking on the floor. You mean get stuck in like Ramsey did, and lost a year and a half of football for it. Or like Micah did and lost 3 weeks. These gladiator acts that gain you so little (at best possession for a few seconds, but more likely- a foul against you, perhaps a caution for aggressiveness, a throw in to the other team, a dismisal for rough play o at worst an injury/longterm). This is the quality most cherished by fans?
I mean fans often don't think these things through, so it is understandable, but to have coaches, ex-players and commentators who parrot that idiocy is saddening.

Not only does it take away from the game, when we lose a player like Ramsey for over a years, it is often equally pointless considering the risk reward matrix of this decisions. Very little reward, very high risk. It is just not a smart proposition, not short term or long term. But Prem fans swear by it. They clap to high heavens when they see it. Even though more often than not is changes nothing at all.

Tevez runs five miles to come put a ball into throwing. He gets a standing ovation for his "stuck in" effort. Only for him to get up, walk back to his position up front a little more tired than he needed to be. The other team is still in possession with a throw in. They quickly throw the ball in and are back exactly where they were before Tevez chased 5 miles to poke it into throw in. The only thing lost is a few seconds, and Tevez is a little more tired than he should be at this point. A few minutes later Tevez's form on a shot looks bad. The shot misses the target badly and you wonder if it'd coz of the mental fatigue from expending so much energy giving up a throw in earlier :(

The irrationality of get "stuck in" :?

But if its not only him doing and the whole team then you are forcing their team more deep and are not in the same posistion as they was before he won the throwing. It allows us to push out and get back into shape. It also adds morale to the team as seeing a striker putting all that effort in makes other players want to do the same.

When the whole team does it as a strategy, I agree it is fine. Otherwise- it depends. Even though English fans would give you brownie points for so doing, regardless of if it makes sense or not. It is this kinda points that Yaya never gets because he doesn't exhibit these traits. Hence why he is in the tosser.

-- Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:07 pm --

He makes a fair point, the English football mindset places too much emphasis on players wasting energy chasing lost causes, players who choose leave the lost causes and save their energy for more productive thing are often accused of 'not looking interested', Yaya and Balotelli are prime examples.

To use one example,i give you Berbatov.

He was typical of the 'style' you describe.

However,once Taggert got his hands on him,we see a different player - he has suddenly added a workrate to his game.
My point being - those traits are not mutually exclusive - they can often be a choice.

Fantastic example. Berbatov did not change much at all. People changed their opinion when bacon face litterally stated time without number that the statistics show that Berbatov works harder than most. I.e. if you determine hard work by amount of distance covered during a game. Berbatov is on a constant move, finding space, seeking the ball, repositioning, but because his touch on the ball was languid, and he seldom ran to the corner to put in a fierce but often pointless tackle on a defender, he was deemed lazy. Perception. That is all it is. He was no more lazy them or hard working now. He still motors on offense and not on defense, he still covers more ground than most. Granted he gets more production now, but not because he shows more commitment. Even though that is how it propagandized to the public. He produces more because he is more comfortable in the system and understands it better and the players araound him more.

great example<br /><br />-- Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:13 pm --<br /><br />

Dax,what are you waffling on about? i think you're beginning to believe your own hype....

No essays needed - For much of the game,Yaya doesn't look particularly arsed.

And in case it wasn't obvious in my other post,i was referring to the mob from Stretford and not clubs that suit your agenda.

Happy to agree to disagree on this 'topic' - my eyes do not deceive me.

I have a hype?

Actually, the eyes can easily deceive you if you have a predisposition. So when you see bad, you highlight it, and when you see good you assume is a one off, or a rarity. The only way to be certain, is to use your eyes, and the stats.

I will agree to disagree, but in all honesty, "the truth" and "perception" (when it comes to football) especially when being aided by biased commentary are almost always different.

 

[Gelsons Dad]

But if its not only him doing and the whole team then you are forcing their team more deep and are not in the same posistion as they was before he won the throwing. It allows us to push out and get back into shape. It also adds morale to the team as seeing a striker putting all that effort in makes other players want to do the same.

When the whole team does it as a strategy, I agree it is fine. Otherwise- it depends. Even though English fans would give you brownie points for so doing, regardless of if it makes sense or not. It is this kinda points that Yaya never gets because he doesn't exhibit these traits. Hence why he is in the tosser.

-- Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:07 pm --

To use one example,i give you Berbatov.

He was typical of the 'style' you describe.

However,once Taggert got his hands on him,we see a different player - he has suddenly added a workrate to his game.
My point being - those traits are not mutually exclusive - they can often be a choice.

Fantastic example. Berbatov did not change much at all. People changed their opinion when bacon face litterally stated time without number that the statistics show that Berbatov works harder than most. I.e. if you determine hard work by amount of distance covered during a game. Berbatov is on a constant move, finding space, seeking the ball, repositioning, but because his touch on the ball was languid, and he seldom ran to the corner to put in a fierce but often pointless tackle on a defender, he was deemed lazy. Perception. That is all it is. He was no more lazy them or hard working now. He still motors on offense and not on defense, he still covers more ground than most. Granted he gets more production now, but not because he shows more commitment. Even though that is how it propagandized to the public. He produces more because he is more comfortable in the system and understands it better and the players araound him more.

great example

And a great analysis dax.
Just to add, I despise the term work rate. Every player has a " work rate". What is much more important than the amount and therefor in a fix time period the "rate" of work, is the quality of the work done. As has been said, 20 long chases to the corner flag is a lot of work. One 5 yard dash at the correct time can score a goal. It's the quality that counts not the rate.

 

[Dax777]

Why do people assume when you say get stuck in, you mean leg break tackles, run around like headless chickens etc etc. We are at present seeing one of the best examples of get stuck in when you watch Barcelona play. Nobody is hiding all working to the best of there ability. If you lose the ball don't just assume someone else will cover. Defend from the front. Dax777. You defend Yaya and his hot and cold performance, then make little of the efforts of Tevez's in only winning throw in for reading. But surly by making the tackle gives us chance to re group. Your obviously highly impressed with Yaya and deeply offended with criticism of him. I like him think he's great for our team but like all player's at the moment. could try to be more consistent. And that's not bias.

On the contrary, I don't really particularly like Yaya, at least no more than I like any regular player on our team. I just feel it is unfair that he gets pilloried and undervalued for playing just as well and sometimes better than others who are idolized!

For me, It is a matter of fairness and redefining what constitutes productive performance than it is about some affection for Yaya Toure. So I am not really defending Yaya Toure's "Hot and Cold Performances" I am just saying it is no different from David Silva's hot and Cold performance, or Tevez's Hot and Cold performance. Yet I doubt you'd refer to a defense of Silva as defending his "'hot (Wigan/Aston Villa) and Cold (Kyiv/ Notts County1)" performance. As to describe it that way would be to label him a hot and cold prospect i.e. you are saying that is his nature. But with Silva it is an aberration. This preconceived bias, I believe shapes what people see.

Third, I apologize if it sounded like I was making little of the effort of Tevez. I was just trying to explore the value of added points players get for doing things.

@ Lemoh: I now my response to DD was long and winded, and someone made fun of me for it :) but I answered the question you asked in that response. By the way I am not accusing anyone who criticize Yaya of Bias. That will mean I think Yaya is above criticism, which he certainly isn't, and I have myself criticized him in the past. I am accusing those who show Bias in their criticisms of Bias. I.e. I point out the bias! It really is not about Yaya, but about Bias, and how we show it sometimes-
I did that to show that my earlier statement on a different thread that their might exist a "Yaya Bias" was true.

So in the end, this is really a self serving diatribe on my part, and I am aware of that, but that doesn't mean it isn't true :)

 

[FantasyIreland]

What I like about him is the way that when fucks up or he gives the ball away he tries harder than ever to win it back to the point of fouling his opponent - shows great commitment and looks as though he hates losing.

Sarcasm suits you.

 

[bondsman]

Simon, I'm going to get slated for this but to me he's a big problem. We play him as the attacking midfielder, middle of the three. He is one of the big reasons why our build up play is so ponderous and slow. He is slow on the ball and a very negative passer. I don't think his vision's brilliant. I don't think he finds space very well.

He's got something, you can see that. At home he becomes the target for the goal kicks and wins a few. When he gets going, like a supertanker, he can shift. But these runs he makes are rarely productive. I had really high hopes for him when he arrived as his passing in the pre-season looked superb. He can hit the ball too, but rarely accurately.

I don't think he fits well into the premiership due to the amount of time he appears to need on the ball - the same way that Robinho couldn't. Obviously he's a hugely different player but it's the pace and directness of the premiership which some players can't cope with.

I can't really see where he fits in our system either. He's be better in a 4-4-2 or on the right side of a midfield diamond.

Controversial I know, but I think he fills the space Silva should be in, particularly at home. I think when AJ returns we should look to drop him. I know many thing he should play alongside NDJ, and I know he's played there in the past, but he hasn't really impressed me when he's played there either.

A disappointing signing for me if I'm honest. Yesterday encapsulated all my points above to me.

My feelings exactly. Shame of it is he could obviously be outstanding