Yaya

Yaya Toure is a fantastic player and is such an important player for us but i can understand where Didsbury Dave is coming from, i think his best position is infront of the back four where he can still go on those bursting runs we all love to see him go on.

----------de Jong------Yaya-------------

--Johnson--------Silva----------Balotelli--

--------------Dzeko/Tevez----------------

Is probably our best set up when everyone is fit.

People say he looks leggy but can you blame him? He has played 9 games on the trot, not one player apart from Hart has played that many consecutive games this season.
 
this season he's the most frustrating player in our squad.

he's either absolutely shite or he's top class.

you just don't know which yaya toure will roll up on matchdays.

the way he normally starts the game, is the way he always finishes it.
 
Dax777 said:
I have once said there was a Yaya Bias on Bluemoon. I will go ahead and use this post to point out that bias as exhibited by DD.
Didsbury Dave said:
Simon, I'm going to get slated for this but to me he's a big problem
First a negative conclusion. Now lets see if his supporting evidence backs up this conclusion above.
We play him as the attacking midfielder, middle of the three. He is one of the big reasons why our build up play is so ponderous and slow.
Is this a true claim? Did he pass the ball back with players in advantageous positions ahead of him? Does he slow the play down? And when compared to others can he be called a big reason? Compared to Lescott, De Jong, Viera, Tevez, Micah, Barry, Kola, Hart- Just to name a few who's exclusion will do more to improve movement than the exclusion of Yaya! But lets blame him for something he is better at than 8 of the other 11 starters.
He is slow on the ball and a very negative passer.
By slow on the ball, do you mean he moves slowly? as his power runs contradicts this. Do you mean he holds on to the ball too long. Again contradicted by his one touch passing, which constitutes about 80% of his passing when he is backing the opposition's goal. As for being a negative passer, this is wrong too. There is a difference between a pressure relieving pass and a negative pass. It is subtle. One is meant to help relieve pressure momentarily i.e. a wall pass it give the player with the ball a chance to move without it while he receive it at his new position. Silva and Yaya, only 2 players on our team who do this with any consistency. They also happen to be the ones most open to receive a pass
I don't think his vision's brilliant. I don't think he finds space very well.
Notice the difference between the claim here and the one directly above. This is the first example of Subconscious Bias. Above DD says "he is slow on the ball" this might be true based on what DD values as fast or slow. But notice the next claim "I don't think" yep, subconsciously DD is saying, "he could be that he has vision, but DD doesn't think its "brilliant." Even notice the word "Brilliant" it is also a function of bias. He finds descriptor that is possibly out of reach, thus he can convince himself of his claim.
Let see, the overhead pass to Balo, the cutting pass to AJ. The Yaya-Tevez-Dzeko-Yaya one touch goal. There are are too numerous to count. But it is arguable that even that does not constitute "briliant." To that I have 2 questions and a comment 1) outside of Cecs, Silva, Wilshere and Adams who else can be deemed to have "brilliant Vision"? 2) Later on down the line you will find that DD wants AJ as Yaya's replacement, not direct but in the 11. Now can DDJ give me AJ's list of actions suggesting brilliant vision!! My, comment answers the questions above: No one, and No., AJ, has sub-par vision. Not Brilliant! Not very good! (which Yaya's is.) Not good! Not average! Sub-par (just slightly above mediocre. Yes vision is one of AJ's weakest attributes but DD wants to replace the guy "without brilliant vision" but ignore the fact that his replacement's vision is worse. Why is this? Coz there is a YAYA BIAS!

He's got something, you can see that. At home he becomes the target for the goal kicks and wins a few.

More bias! Yesterday, he won every jump ball header except for 1. Yet rather than acknowledge that fact, you undermine it by saying "he wins a few." A clear example of not wanting to give credit. This is how to spot bias my friend. He might have been poor in some games, and was rightly pilloried for it. But Yesterday, he won everything but 1. That is not "a few" that is "ALMOST ALL." A few suggest he was poor. But if he was poor you'd say "he loses most" to highlight the negative, or he "wins a few" to obscure a positive. I think your mind realized you couldn't call the negative on headers today, so you obscured that positive. I am here to unearth it, and the bias that comes with it :)

When he gets going, like a supertanker, he can shift. But these runs he makes are rarely productive.
You mean like the last game in which the first of such runs led to a cross into the box, and then a tight corner shot that had to be saved by the goalie (so much for not being accurate shooting). Or do you mean the one where he out muscled Thisvahilli(sp) and put a cross onto SWP's foot open and inside the box. Or was it the one that got Tevez the Ball on top of the 18 for a shot. Not to mention those that have in the past led to "individual effort" goals in previous games (twice!!). Yes but outside of those and the open chances some of those runs created that were fluffed by others. Yep you are absolutely right. They are rarely productive. Are you begginning to see the bias? You are throwing out all the "bias tricks."

The last 2 points were supposed to be compliments to Yaya- i,e (he has something, and he can be a tank- Showing DD is been fair in his assessment, but both comments are quickly and swiftly undermined or obscured, by claims that are either only partly true or inverted.) This is complexed Bias at work.
I had really high hopes for him when he arrived as his passing in the pre-season looked superb. He can hit the ball too, but rarely accurately.
Again, another compliment quickly undermined with the "rarely X". Statistically his accuracy is on par with every one of the offensive players, slightly better than Silva's on par with Tevez, better than Dzeko, Slightly below AJ's, and only fa

I don't think he fits well into the premiership due to the amount of time he appears to need on the ball
Yes, this the guy who seems to be able to find cutting guys up field more accurately than anyone not named Silva. The guy who moves faster with the ball than anyone else. The guy who under pressure found Tevez and Sprinted down field for a return pass for a goal. But since he has lost some balls, unlike SIllva, Tevez, Barry, De Jong, Kola, AJ and the rest who haven't lost more on the average. It must be that he needs more time on the ball than Prem gives. Right!!! Nothing has been father from the truth. He is statistically one of the most accurate passers on our squad. One of the fastest driving the ball forward. So where is this "needs time" coming from? Bias I suppose!

the same way that Robinho couldn't. Obviously he's a hugely different player but it's the pace and directness of the premiership which some players can't cope with.
Yes, lets compare him to a petulant talent that no one likes for his whiny nature. Then we can having him in the perfect negative light.

I can't really see where he fits in our system either. He's be better in a 4-4-2 or on the right side of a midfield diamond.
Lets ignore where he plays in our system he has been shown to be quite productive.

Controversial I know, but I think he fills the space Silva should be in, particularly at home
There is nothing controversial about it. A majority share this biased opinion. And I call it biased because it is not supported by the facts.

I think when AJ returns we should look to drop him.
Yes, considering how impressive AJ had been with his vision, and how AJ does not need time on the ball to dribble defenders. And how his runs more often results in something positive. Nice thought though!

I know many thing he should play alongside NDJ, and I know he's played there in the past, but he hasn't really impressed me when he's played there either.
And when was this that he played along NDJ and didn't impress U?

A disappointing signing for me if I'm honest. Yesterday encapsulated all my points above to me.

And here is the kicker- Had all the above been said on the power of viewing from a whole season, one might have thought, hmmm, okay! But apparently, everything said above was encapsulated in yesterdays game.

The same game in which he was as accurate shooting as any other player yesterday. Or was I the only one who counted 3 shots that had to be muffed by a good goalie? But SIlva fluffed badly on one shot, similar to Balo's fluff a few weeks back -had those been Yaya- we would have discussed it ad nauseum and highlighted on the list of "not so accurate"- Based on DD's rant shouldn't we we start to wonder whether that SIlva and Balo were a mistake? You know, with their ability to flop on volley's and all when shooting, or does the rule only apply to Yaya, even when we have no record of Yaya so flopping on a shot-

Worse still, no one questioned DD's claims.
I have said before, and I'll say it again- There is an anti Yaya bias on Bluemoon, and here is a clear example of one.

Nothing wrong with slating a player in my opinion. But lets do it on the FACTS- and in comparison to others. Not on imagined stuff.
The real reason folks don't like Yaya is simple. He doesn't expend as much energy on defense. This often rubs English fans the wrong way. But if that is the case, say so! Don't make things up. Offensively, Yaya has been better than 90% of the league at retaining possession and creating advantageous plays for teammates. his shooting is powerful and accurate. Even more accurate than stats would show, coz often his shots are being blocked out for corners, but they were lazers on course. His vision is not in question, you can cue 50% of over the top passes to Balo, slips to the wing for Kola or Zab. AJ best attributes is highlighted by Yaya's vision of finding him on the cut. Numerous occasions. He touches the ball more than any other player on offense. Often just one touch and move But this tells you he is moving and getting open.

But that thing about being "stuck in" and how it has become the epitome of who cares, is really Yaya's only problem and the basis of the ever increasing bias. The groans when Yay's mispasses, that would have been replaced of claps of "he tried" if it has been Silva.

It is time to stop the bias!!! beginning with you DD~

I shouldn't have bothered replying, this is much better than anything I could ever say.

Well done.
 
Didsbury Dave said:
Simon, I'm going to get slated for this but to me he's a big problem. We play him as the attacking midfielder, middle of the three. He is one of the big reasons why our build up play is so ponderous and slow. He is slow on the ball and a very negative passer. I don't think his vision's brilliant. I don't think he finds space very well.

He's got something, you can see that. At home he becomes the target for the goal kicks and wins a few. When he gets going, like a supertanker, he can shift. But these runs he makes are rarely productive. I had really high hopes for him when he arrived as his passing in the pre-season looked superb. He can hit the ball too, but rarely accurately.

I don't think he fits well into the premiership due to the amount of time he appears to need on the ball - the same way that Robinho couldn't. Obviously he's a hugely different player but it's the pace and directness of the premiership which some players can't cope with.

I can't really see where he fits in our system either. He's be better in a 4-4-2 or on the right side of a midfield diamond.

Controversial I know, but I think he fills the space Silva should be in, particularly at home. I think when AJ returns we should look to drop him. I know many thing he should play alongside NDJ, and I know he's played there in the past, but he hasn't really impressed me when he's played there either.

A disappointing signing for me if I'm honest. Yesterday encapsulated all my points above to me.
I disagree with almost every point made in this post.

Not sure that long term Yaya will remain in the role he's currently playing, but I think he's been good overall, and at times excellent, this season. Superb passer of the ball, and I think it's verging on the bizarre to say that his passing is negative.
 
simon23 said:
Cannt work this guy out.....

At times he looks like a world beater, able to steam roller past half a team in 6 strides

At other times he looks like he would be knocked off the ball by a stiff breeze and he looks like he is about to pass out die to exhaustion!!! (int eh first 5 mins of a game!!)

His touch is sublime one minute.....extremely poor the next...he can make 25 yd incisive passes (like the one to balo in the villa game) but then he cannt pass a simple 10 yd ball to someone that would give us a chance of a break away

His work with the ball is generally good...but his work rate off the ball (especially winning back after he has lost it is poor)

What does everyone else think...I just cannt work him out at all

The big problem with Yaya is that he is such a fookin big unit his ability to get up and down and across the pitch is not as good as many - his top speed is good but the time he takes to get to it is the problem - i dont think he is as creative as people like to make out. Personally i would like to see us stop using 3 DM and use any two of Barry / DJ / Vierra / Yaya (although a Yaya / Viera combo is a no no)

However still prefer DJ / Barry as a pairing
 
his one touch passing is usually very good/excellent as you would expect from a player that has played in a barca team.

its sometime s the more simple passes he messes up which is why he is such an enigma for me.

I dont doubt he is a very very good player however

There does seem to be a question mark over his fitness...he seems to run out of steam quite quickly and cannt get back when the ball is lost

I think he is best played from deeper as well. his runs seem more effective from that position
 
leighton said:
At this moment Yaya playing the more advanced role in midfield is maybe the best place he can play as part of this team. I wouldnt like to see him play alongside either Barry or De Jong just yet. He seems to be a bit of a pussy at times. He pulls out of tackles and that just pisses me off for the size of the man he needs to man up and put his foot in and put himself about a bit more. Also he could do with loosing a bit of weight. Next season I would hope to see a slimline Yaya who would be more up to playing in England.

These English media type comments always leaves me cracking on the floor. You mean get stuck in like Ramsey did, and lost a year and a half of football for it. Or like Micah did and lost 3 weeks. These gladiator acts that gain you so little (at best possession for a few seconds, but more likely- a foul against you, perhaps a caution for aggressiveness, a throw in to the other team, a dismisal for rough play o at worst an injury/longterm). This is the quality most cherished by fans?
I mean fans often don't think these things through, so it is understandable, but to have coaches, ex-players and commentators who parrot that idiocy is saddening.

Not only does it take away from the game, when we lose a player like Ramsey for over a years, it is often equally pointless considering the risk reward matrix of this decisions. Very little reward, very high risk. It is just not a smart proposition, not short term or long term. But Prem fans swear by it. They clap to high heavens when they see it. Even though more often than not is changes nothing at all.

Tevez runs five miles to come put a ball into throwing. He gets a standing ovation for his "stuck in" effort. Only for him to get up, walk back to his position up front a little more tired than he needed to be. The other team is still in possession with a throw in. They quickly throw the ball in and are back exactly where they were before Tevez chased 5 miles to poke it into throw in. The only thing lost is a few seconds, and Tevez is a little more tired than he should be at this point. A few minutes later Tevez's form on a shot looks bad. The shot misses the target badly and you wonder if it'd coz of the mental fatigue from expending so much energy giving up a throw in earlier :(

The irrationality of get "stuck in" :?
 
Dax777 said:
I have once said there was a Yaya Bias on Bluemoon. I will go ahead and use this post to point out that bias as exhibited by DD.
Didsbury Dave said:
Simon, I'm going to get slated for this but to me he's a big problem
First a negative conclusion. Now lets see if his supporting evidence backs up this conclusion above.
We play him as the attacking midfielder, middle of the three. He is one of the big reasons why our build up play is so ponderous and slow.
Is this a true claim? Did he pass the ball back with players in advantageous positions ahead of him? Does he slow the play down? And when compared to others can he be called a big reason? Compared to Lescott, De Jong, Viera, Tevez, Micah, Barry, Kola, Hart- Just to name a few who's exclusion will do more to improve movement than the exclusion of Yaya! But lets blame him for something he is better at than 8 of the other 11 starters.
He is slow on the ball and a very negative passer.
By slow on the ball, do you mean he moves slowly? as his power runs contradicts this. Do you mean he holds on to the ball too long. Again contradicted by his one touch passing, which constitutes about 80% of his passing when he is backing the opposition's goal. As for being a negative passer, this is wrong too. There is a difference between a pressure relieving pass and a negative pass. It is subtle. One is meant to help relieve pressure momentarily i.e. a wall pass it give the player with the ball a chance to move without it while he receive it at his new position. Silva and Yaya, only 2 players on our team who do this with any consistency. They also happen to be the ones most open to receive a pass
I don't think his vision's brilliant. I don't think he finds space very well.
Notice the difference between the claim here and the one directly above. This is the first example of Subconscious Bias. Above DD says "he is slow on the ball" this might be true based on what DD values as fast or slow. But notice the next claim "I don't think" yep, subconsciously DD is saying, "he could be that he has vision, but DD doesn't think its "brilliant." Even notice the word "Brilliant" it is also a function of bias. He finds descriptor that is possibly out of reach, thus he can convince himself of his claim.
Let see, the overhead pass to Balo, the cutting pass to AJ. The Yaya-Tevez-Dzeko-Yaya one touch goal. There are are too numerous to count. But it is arguable that even that does not constitute "briliant." To that I have 2 questions and a comment 1) outside of Cecs, Silva, Wilshere and Adams who else can be deemed to have "brilliant Vision"? 2) Later on down the line you will find that DD wants AJ as Yaya's replacement, not direct but in the 11. Now can DDJ give me AJ's list of actions suggesting brilliant vision!! My, comment answers the questions above: No one, and No., AJ, has sub-par vision. Not Brilliant! Not very good! (which Yaya's is.) Not good! Not average! Sub-par (just slightly above mediocre. Yes vision is one of AJ's weakest attributes but DD wants to replace the guy "without brilliant vision" but ignore the fact that his replacement's vision is worse. Why is this? Coz there is a YAYA BIAS!

He's got something, you can see that. At home he becomes the target for the goal kicks and wins a few.

More bias! Yesterday, he won every jump ball header except for 1. Yet rather than acknowledge that fact, you undermine it by saying "he wins a few." A clear example of not wanting to give credit. This is how to spot bias my friend. He might have been poor in some games, and was rightly pilloried for it. But Yesterday, he won everything but 1. That is not "a few" that is "ALMOST ALL." A few suggest he was poor. But if he was poor you'd say "he loses most" to highlight the negative, or he "wins a few" to obscure a positive. I think your mind realized you couldn't call the negative on headers today, so you obscured that positive. I am here to unearth it, and the bias that comes with it :)

When he gets going, like a supertanker, he can shift. But these runs he makes are rarely productive.
You mean like the last game in which the first of such runs led to a cross into the box, and then a tight corner shot that had to be saved by the goalie (so much for not being accurate shooting). Or do you mean the one where he out muscled Thisvahilli(sp) and put a cross onto SWP's foot open and inside the box. Or was it the one that got Tevez the Ball on top of the 18 for a shot. Not to mention those that have in the past led to "individual effort" goals in previous games (twice!!). Yes but outside of those and the open chances some of those runs created that were fluffed by others. Yep you are absolutely right. They are rarely productive. Are you begginning to see the bias? You are throwing out all the "bias tricks."

The last 2 points were supposed to be compliments to Yaya- i,e (he has something, and he can be a tank- Showing DD is been fair in his assessment, but both comments are quickly and swiftly undermined or obscured, by claims that are either only partly true or inverted.) This is complexed Bias at work.
I had really high hopes for him when he arrived as his passing in the pre-season looked superb. He can hit the ball too, but rarely accurately.
Again, another compliment quickly undermined with the "rarely X". Statistically his accuracy is on par with every one of the offensive players, slightly better than Silva's on par with Tevez, better than Dzeko, Slightly below AJ's, and only fa

I don't think he fits well into the premiership due to the amount of time he appears to need on the ball
Yes, this the guy who seems to be able to find cutting guys up field more accurately than anyone not named Silva. The guy who moves faster with the ball than anyone else. The guy who under pressure found Tevez and Sprinted down field for a return pass for a goal. But since he has lost some balls, unlike SIllva, Tevez, Barry, De Jong, Kola, AJ and the rest who haven't lost more on the average. It must be that he needs more time on the ball than Prem gives. Right!!! Nothing has been father from the truth. He is statistically one of the most accurate passers on our squad. One of the fastest driving the ball forward. So where is this "needs time" coming from? Bias I suppose!

the same way that Robinho couldn't. Obviously he's a hugely different player but it's the pace and directness of the premiership which some players can't cope with.
Yes, lets compare him to a petulant talent that no one likes for his whiny nature. Then we can having him in the perfect negative light.

I can't really see where he fits in our system either. He's be better in a 4-4-2 or on the right side of a midfield diamond.
Lets ignore where he plays in our system he has been shown to be quite productive.

Controversial I know, but I think he fills the space Silva should be in, particularly at home
There is nothing controversial about it. A majority share this biased opinion. And I call it biased because it is not supported by the facts.

I think when AJ returns we should look to drop him.
Yes, considering how impressive AJ had been with his vision, and how AJ does not need time on the ball to dribble defenders. And how his runs more often results in something positive. Nice thought though!

I know many thing he should play alongside NDJ, and I know he's played there in the past, but he hasn't really impressed me when he's played there either.
And when was this that he played along NDJ and didn't impress U?

A disappointing signing for me if I'm honest. Yesterday encapsulated all my points above to me.

And here is the kicker- Had all the above been said on the power of viewing from a whole season, one might have thought, hmmm, okay! But apparently, everything said above was encapsulated in yesterdays game.

The same game in which he was as accurate shooting as any other player yesterday. Or was I the only one who counted 3 shots that had to be muffed by a good goalie? But SIlva fluffed badly on one shot, similar to Balo's fluff a few weeks back -had those been Yaya- we would have discussed it ad nauseum and highlighted on the list of "not so accurate"- Based on DD's rant shouldn't we we start to wonder whether that SIlva and Balo were a mistake? You know, with their ability to flop on volley's and all when shooting, or does the rule only apply to Yaya, even when we have no record of Yaya so flopping on a shot-

Worse still, no one questioned DD's claims.
I have said before, and I'll say it again- There is an anti Yaya bias on Bluemoon, and here is a clear example of one.

Nothing wrong with slating a player in my opinion. But lets do it on the FACTS- and in comparison to others. Not on imagined stuff.
The real reason folks don't like Yaya is simple. He doesn't expend as much energy on defense. This often rubs English fans the wrong way. But if that is the case, say so! Don't make things up. Offensively, Yaya has been better than 90% of the league at retaining possession and creating advantageous plays for teammates. his shooting is powerful and accurate. Even more accurate than stats would show, coz often his shots are being blocked out for corners, but they were lazers on course. His vision is not in question, you can cue 50% of over the top passes to Balo, slips to the wing for Kola or Zab. AJ best attributes is highlighted by Yaya's vision of finding him on the cut. Numerous occasions. He touches the ball more than any other player on offense. Often just one touch and move But this tells you he is moving and getting open.

But that thing about being "stuck in" and how it has become the epitome of who cares, is really Yaya's only problem and the basis of the ever increasing bias. The groans when Yay's mispasses, that would have been replaced of claps of "he tried" if it has been Silva.

It is time to stop the bias!!! beginning with you DD~

I think you would have been better served just typing

"Didsbury Dave knows fuck all about football"

It has the advantage of being 100% accurate and very, very short.
 
They mean enthusiasm and desire Dax - Not a difficult concept to understand.

Yaya doesn't display enough of either.

You only have to look at the other lot to see that while many of the squad only possess average ability they more than make up for it with their will to win.
 
Dax777 said:
leighton said:
At this moment Yaya playing the more advanced role in midfield is maybe the best place he can play as part of this team. I wouldnt like to see him play alongside either Barry or De Jong just yet. He seems to be a bit of a pussy at times. He pulls out of tackles and that just pisses me off for the size of the man he needs to man up and put his foot in and put himself about a bit more. Also he could do with loosing a bit of weight. Next season I would hope to see a slimline Yaya who would be more up to playing in England.

These English type comments always leaves me cracking on the floor. You mean get stuck in like Ramsey did, and lost a year and a half of football for it. Or like Micah did and lost 3 weeks. These gladiator acts that gain you so little (at best possession for a few seconds, but more likely- a foul against you, perhaps a caution for aggressiveness, a throw in to the other team, a dismisal for rough play o at worst an injury/longterm). This is the quality most cherished by fans?
I mean fans often don't think these things through, so it is understandable, but to have coaches, ex-players and commentators who parrot that idiocy is saddening.

Not only does it take away from the game, when we lose a player like Ramsey for over a years, it is often equally pointless considering the risk reward matrix of this decisions. Very little reward, very high risk. It is just not a smart proposition, not short term or long term. But Prem fans swear by it. They clap to high heavens when they see it. Even though more often than not is changes nothing at all.

Tevez runs five miles to come put a ball into throwing. He gets a standing ovation for his stucj in effort. Only gor him to get up walk back to his position up front. The other team still in possession with a throw in. Quickly throws the ball and are back exactly where they were before Tevez chased 5 miles to poke it into throw in. The only thing lost is a few seconds, and Tevez is a little more tired than he should be at this point, and will miss an easy chance in a few minutes coz mental fatigue has set in from expending so much energy giving up a throw in.

The irrationality of get "stuck in" :?

Disagree - the way the game is played here in the Prem first and foremost you must impose yourself on the other team - you have to win you own personal battle with your opposition - high work rate / closing down and the physical attributes required are all oart and parcel of it. Maybr getting stuck in is the wrong word BUT fronting up is possably better but they all mean the same things to me.

If you want to kick lumps out of Chelski or the rags they can give it bavk - if you want to play football the can play football equally as well thats why they are successful.
 

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