Ederson Moraes

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I'm still not convinced Bravo won't be our number one next season.

I think Bravo & Pickford as our two goalkeepers is a good possibility.
 
Even if we do keep Bravo and is the first choice (for now) Ederson is the better bet than Pickford.
 
Ederson get lot of praise from coaches, football legend and former keeper.
to name a few - julio cesar, van der sar, emerson leao, dunga and maureen.
hope he will reach his potential at City and become all time great.
 
Shaelumstash said:
Your first paragraph doesn't really make sense, mate. I know lots of teams in England play that way, that was my whole point.

Regarding punching, I think a lot of it depends on the goalkeeping coach. Hart very rarely used to punch until Pellegrini brought in that goalkeeping coach, he made Hart a much worse keeper in my view.

De Gea punched a lot more in his early United career than he does now, he's adapted his game. And De Gea is a good example of what I'm talking about with physicality.

When he arrived in the league he was wiry and lightweight. That had never been a problem for him in Spain, but he was getting bullied in the box in the PL. Neville did a big piece on it at the time, absolutely slaughtered him.

DeGea has developed physically over the last few years, become much stronger and he's a much better keeper for it. Again, Neville has analysed his improved performance since he improved physically.

The idea of PL exceptionalism is completely flawed, as shown with European performances. But the PL is different. It would be ridiculous to think otherwise. It is more physical than other top European leagues. Physicality, pace and aggression does play a bigger part in England than it dies in Spain, Italy or Germany. It would be naive to think otherwise.

I don't think it's a good think by the way, but it is what it is.
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Sorry I should've clarified in my first paragraph I was referring to La Liga, Serie A, and the Bundesliga.

As far as De Gea goes, I would argue that his struggle in the beginning has more to do with him being young and inexperienced rather than a lack of physicality.
De Gea conceded 29 goals in 29 matches in his first year for the rags.
His last season at Atletico he conceded 53 goals in 38 matches. Much worse than his first year for the rags.
It wasn't like he was a stellar goalkeeper before he joined the rags and his form suddenly plummeted because of this 'physicality'.
 
Plain Speaking said:
This season Bravo has actually punched a slightly higher % than all the GKs we have been linked with except Pickford, Willy and Ederson have the lowest:
Average punches: Caballero-21%, Valdes-32%, Bravo-41%, Pickford-52%, Donnarumma-39%, Ederson Moraes-22%, Hart-39%
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Which solidifies my general point that only European GKs punch the ball, which isn't true at all.
 
mavsmcfc said:
Sorry I should've clarified in my first paragraph I was referring to La Liga, Serie A, and the Bundesliga.

As far as De Gea goes, I would argue that his struggle in the beginning has more to do with him being young and inexperienced rather than a lack of physicality.
De Gea conceded 29 goals in 29 matches in his first year for the rags.
His last season at Atletico he conceded 53 goals in 38 matches. Much worse than his first year for the rags.
It wasn't like he was a stellar goalkeeper before he joined the rags and his form suddenly plummeted because of this 'physicality'.
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Yeh think we're going off on a tangent here. I appreciate De Gea's improvement wasn't solely down to his improved physicality. I'm just saying it played a part, and physicality is more important in England than it is in Spain, Italy or Germany. I completely stand by that.
 
Shaelumstash said:
Yeh think we're going off on a tangent here. I appreciate De Gea's improvement wasn't solely down to his improved physicality. I'm just saying it played a part, and physicality is more important in England than it is in Spain, Italy or Germany. I completely stand by that.
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based on what exactly?
 
manygoose said:
based on what exactly?
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Based on the fact so many teams in the PL play direct football up to a big strong centre forward, who are up against big strong centre halves, and have aggressive centre midfielders who's main job it is to tackle and win second balls.

Never seen a team play like that in Spain, Italy or Germany. Technique and tactical acumen is far more important in those countries. That's one of the reasons why the PL is so competitive, a team near the bottom can beat a team at the top with direct, physical football. That doesn't happen quite so much on the continent.

Physicality is far more important in the PL than La Liga, Serie a, or the Bendesliga. If you don't think that's true, what are you basing it on?
 
Shaelumstash said:
Based on the fact so many teams in the PL play direct football up to a big strong centre forward, who are up against big strong centre halves, and have aggressive centre midfielders who's main job it is to tackle and win second balls.

Never seen a team play like that in Spain, Italy or Germany. Technique and tactical acumen is far more important in those countries. That's one of the reasons why the PL is so competitive, a team near the bottom can beat a team at the top with direct, physical football. That doesn't happen quite so much on the continent.

Physicality is far more important in the PL than La Liga, Serie a, or the Bendesliga. If you don't think that's true, what are you basing it on?
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so many teams in the PL play direct football up to a big strong centre forward..... who? i bet there's plenty more exceptions and there are teams where this is true

big strong centre halves... i bet most teams in all the top 5 leagues and beyond have centre halves who are bigger and stronger than the rest of the players.

aggressive centre midfielders who's main job it is to tackle and win second balls.. again i dont think this is unique to the premier league, and even then i dont think we have many outright defensive midfielders in the PL, or any particularly physical ones

Never seen a team play like that in Spain, Italy or Germany i can believe that, and thats because you probably dont watch football outside of the PL

team near the bottom can beat a team at the top with direct, physical football again this is not unique to the PL, happens everywhere.

We as a nation need to get the idea of the premier league being a more physical league out of our heads, its just not true. Spend some time actually watching german/spanish football and you'll see for yourself.
Personally I don't we have a particularly physical league at all. Pulis has west brom to be set up to be pretty physical but apart from them there are some really technically gifted players in the prem.
I think the idea of Spain being a technical league needs to be abandoned as well, if you watch some mid table sides play they aren't any more technically gifted than their counterparts in England or germany.

Trying desperately to keep this on topic, when it comes to goalkeepers I think it matters even less. Edersons physicality will not be a problem what so ever
 
manygoose said:
so many teams in the PL play direct football up to a big strong centre forward..... who? i bet there's plenty more exceptions and there are teams where this is true

big strong centre halves... i bet most teams in all the top 5 leagues and beyond have centre halves who are bigger and stronger than the rest of the players.

aggressive centre midfielders who's main job it is to tackle and win second balls.. again i dont think this is unique to the premier league, and even then i dont think we have many outright defensive midfielders in the PL, or any particularly physical ones

Never seen a team play like that in Spain, Italy or Germany i can believe that, and thats because you probably dont watch football outside of the PL

team near the bottom can beat a team at the top with direct, physical football again this is not unique to the PL, happens everywhere.

We as a nation need to get the idea of the premier league being a more physical league out of our heads, its just not true. Spend some time actually watching german/spanish football and you'll see for yourself.
Personally I don't we have a particularly physical league at all. Pulis has west brom to be set up to be pretty physical but apart from them there are some really technically gifted players in the prem.
I think the idea of Spain being a technical league needs to be abandoned as well, if you watch some mid table sides play they aren't any more technically gifted than their counterparts in England or germany.

Trying desperately to keep this on topic, when it comes to goalkeepers I think it matters even less. Edersons physicality will not be a problem what so ever
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Guardiola has said himself that the PL is more competitive than Spain and Germany because the teams at the bottom can beats teams at the top, more so than in Spain or Germany.

He's also said that the high press is less effective in the PL because teams are much more likely to play long and fight for the second ball. Whereas in Spain and Germany that is not a style of play you see very often.

Now unless you watch more Spanish or German football than Pep Guardiola, I'm going to take his word over yours if that's cool with you.

Teams that play more direct than any team in Spain this season, off the top of my head - Manchester United, West Brom, Leicester, West Ham, Crystal Palace, Stoke, Burnley, Watford, Sunderland.

Now perhaps your intimate, expert knowledge of Osasuna and Alaves will make you inclined to disagree. Perhaps they have Josy Altidore up front and are looking to sign Glenn Whelan this summer and have Harry Bassett as coach and it's just completely slipped me by.

But I'd suggest it's pretty unlikely, and in fact the Spanish teams tend not to play quite as direct as the English teams.

I don't see it as a positive by the way. I actually think it's one of the big draw backs of English football. It's one of the reasons we're not as good in Europe or internationally, we rely too much on pace, strength, physicality and aggression. The rest of Europe has moved on and we're still years behind them.

Regarding Ederson's physicality, I've never once suggested he'd struggle physically in the PL. You've either got confused, or deliberately made it up. I actually think he looks excellent physically. I think Bravo looks too small for a top PL keeper, I said so before he signed and I've seen nothing to change my mind.
 
Shaelumstash said:
Guardiola has said himself that the PL is more competitive than Spain and Germany because the teams at the bottom can beats teams at the top, more so than in Spain or Germany.

He's also said that the high press is less effective in the PL because teams are much more likely to play long and fight for the second ball. Whereas in Spain and Germany that is not a style of play you see very often.

Now unless you watch more Spanish or German football than Pep Guardiola, I'm going to take his word over yours if that's cool with you.

Teams that play more direct than any team in Spain this season, off the top of my head - Manchester United, West Brom, Leicester, West Ham, Crystal Palace, Stoke, Burnley, Watford, Sunderland.

Now perhaps your intimate, expert knowledge of Osasuna and Alaves will make you inclined to disagree. Perhaps they have Josy Altidore up front and are looking to sign Glenn Whelan this summer and have Harry Bassett as coach and it's just completely slipped me by.

But I'd suggest it's pretty unlikely, and in fact the Spanish teams tend not to play quite as direct as the English teams.

I don't see it as a positive by the way. I actually think it's one of the big draw backs of English football. It's one of the reasons we're not as good in Europe or internationally, we rely too much on pace, strength, physicality and aggression. The rest of Europe has moved on and we're still years behind them.

Regarding Ederson's physicality, I've never once suggested he'd struggle physically in the PL. You've either got confused, or deliberately made it up. I actually think he looks excellent physically. I think Bravo looks too small for a top PL keeper, I said so before he signed and I've seen nothing to change my mind.
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Agree with a lot of this, but did hear a different take on this that made me think. The reason the bottom teams beat the top teams more here than Germany, Spain or Italy isnt because the lower teams are better here, but because our best teams arent as good as the top teams there. Champions league prives that.
So its easieir for a Bayern , Madrid, Juventus to beat lower teams because they are much better. Whereas here its harder to beat lower teams because the gap to the top teams is closer. Hopefully we can improve enough to,increase,that gap and will,beat the parked buses easier.
 
blueparrot said:
Agree with a lot of this, but did hear a different take on this that made me think. The reason the bottom teams beat the top teams more here than Germany, Spain or Italy isnt because the lower teams are better here, but because our best teams arent as good as the top teams there. Champions league prives that.
So its easieir for a Bayern , Madrid, Juventus to beat lower teams because they are much better. Whereas here its harder to beat lower teams because the gap to the top teams is closer. Hopefully we can improve enough to,increase,that gap and will,beat the parked buses easier.
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Yeh I think that's fair to say, mate. The top teams in Spain, Italy and Germany are better than the top teams in the PL, there's no disputing that.

Also the distribution of money I think it more even in the PL which levels the playing field quite a bit.

But I think style of play comes in to it too. I'm generalising of course, but in the main Spanish teams tend to be technical, good footballing sides. They play a similar style to the top teams, so invariably the better teams with the better players win.

Whereas in the PL, an Alladyce team for example is a lot less predictable because their game relies more on chance. They could play Arsenal 10 times and 5 times get comprehensively out played and beaten.

But the other 5 times they could win because they got a lucky bounce off Benteke's head, a dangerous free kick which they'd prepared all week for, or won the second ball off a corner.

Their whole style is a lot more reliant on things falling for them on the day. They will never try to outplay Arsenal with intricate football, if they did, they'd get beat 10 out of 10.

Whereas Osasuna will try to play football against Real Madrid, and they'll invariably get beat because they're playing a similar style against much better players.

Styles make fights, that's why the PL is so popular worldwide, anyone can beat anyone on the day. It's unpredictable.
 
Shaelumstash said:
Yeh I think that's fair to say, mate. The top teams in Spain, Italy and Germany are better than the top teams in the PL, there's no disputing that.

Also the distribution of money I think it more even in the PL which levels the playing field quite a bit.

But I think style of play comes in to it too. I'm generalising of course, but in the main Spanish teams tend to be technical, good footballing sides. They play a similar style to the top teams, so invariably the better teams with the better players win.

Whereas in the PL, an Alladyce team for example is a lot less predictable because their game relies more on chance. They could play Arsenal 10 times and 5 times get comprehensively out played and beaten.

But the other 5 times they could win because they got a lucky bounce off Benteke's head, a dangerous free kick which they'd prepared all week for, or won the second ball off a corner.

Their whole style is a lot more reliant on things falling for them on the day. They will never try to outplay Arsenal with intricate football, if they did, they'd get beat 10 out of 10.

Whereas Osasuna will try to play football against Real Madrid, and they'll invariably get beat because they're playing a similar style against much better players.

Styles make fights, that's why the PL is so popular worldwide, anyone can beat anyone on the day. It's unpredictable.
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Style does make a difference, I'm no expert but maybe not so much in Spain but Germany and possibly Italy I'd have thought had more direct teams. Thing is a lucky bounce off Bentekes head shouldnt be giving teams a draw or a win, if we make enough of superior possesion and convert more chances those set peices or breaks are no more than consolations, think Spurs and Chelsea have both been better at punishing teams than us. Hopefully next year we'll be more clinical.
 
It's really got not a lot to do with the playing style, most teams in Portugal are more than willing to park the bus and hit it long to big useless lumps up front who try and hold on to it (Mourinho isn't a coincidence). But the crap Portuguese teams have annual budgets that are tiny, the crap PL teams have annual budgets bigger than Benfica and Porto. That's the difference and why it's more competitive. There are plenty of teams in Spain who play physical football as well, Athletic Club always have and Levante are famous for it. But again, Levante are trying to do it with a team made up of last minute free transfers, not £20m players like the Stokes of this world
 
Shaelumstash said:
Yeh think we're going off on a tangent here. I appreciate De Gea's improvement wasn't solely down to his improved physicality. I'm just saying it played a part, and physicality is more important in England than it is in Spain, Italy or Germany. I completely stand by that.
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Take a look at what Pep had to say about this 'physicality':

http://www.the42.ie/pep-guardiola-rejects-gary-nevilles-man-city-criticism-3387990-May2017/

Some tidbits of what he said:
I can’t imagine going to San Sebastian or Bilbao or Atletico Madrid and saying they are not physical. They play (on) more often here,” he added. “Challenges that are fouls in other countries are not fouls here and contact is more allowed. That is the only difference I have found.”
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manygoose said:
based on what exactly?
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As facts begin to fail my man @Shaelumstash , he has a history of resorting to standing on opinion :) and throwing the question back to you. As @mavsmcfc quietly showed, De Gea got better from his last year at Athletico to his first in England.

A point that clearly contradicts Shael's claim that the physicality caused his regression in his first year. As it turns out, there was no regression. De Gea was simply a talented youngster going through growing pains. And improving from one year to the next, regardless of league.

Again, the English league might be more physical or as others might express it, less technical, this lack of technique has little effect on goalkeeping and goalkeepers.

1. @mavsmcfc has shown how De Gea improved from his last year in Spain to his first year in England thus Debunking the "De Gea couldn't handle the physicality in his first year, hence why he initially regressed" myth.

2 @Plain Speaking statistical expose of the p
% of punching vs saving debunks the myth of "continental goalies punch more coz they don't fear the 2nd ball" and thus may strugglek if they do it here. As it turns out one of the darlings of Premiership Goalkeeping, Pickford, punches more than most continental keepers. And he seems to be doing just fine in the no punch league.

Again this all leads to the same conclusion, the relevancy of the "physicality" of the premier league on the ability or chances of foreign keepers succeeding is minuscule. Frankly, probably less important than the change in weather or language.

So yes, the PL is "more physical", but this point is of little relevance when discussing the chances of success for incoming players. Especially Keepers!


In short, what I'm trying to say here is this: Ederson will be Immense! Beliedat!
 
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Dax777 said:
As facts begin to fail my man @Shaelumstash , he has a history of resorting to standing on opinion :) and throwing the question back to you. As @mavsmcfc quietly showed, De Gea got better from his last year at Athletico to his first in England.

A point that clearly contradicts Shael's claim that the physicality caused his regression in his first year. As it turns out, there was no regression. De Gea was simply a talented youngster going through growing pains. And improving from one year to the next, regardless of league.

Again, the English league might be more physical or as others might express it, less technical, this lack of technique has little effect on goalkeeping and goalkeepers.

1. @mavsmcfc has shown how De Gea improved from his last year in Spain to his first year in England thus Debunking the "De Gea couldn't handle the physicality in his first year, hence why he initially regressed" myth.

2 @Plain Speaking statistical expose of the p
% of punching vs saving debunks the myth of "continental goalies punch more coz they don't fear the 2nd ball" and thus may strugglek if they do it here. As it turns out one of the darlings of Premiership Goalkeeping, Pickford, punches more than most continental keepers. And he seems to be doing just fine in the no punch league.

Again this all leads to the same conclusion, the relevancy of the "physicality" of the premier league on the ability or chances of foreign keepers succeeding is minuscule. Frankly, probably less important than the change in weather or language.

So yes, the PL is "more physical", but this point is of little relevance when discussing the chances of success for incoming players. Especially Keepers!
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If I could insert a face palm emoji, I'd put it in here.

Dax, love, you need to chill out with your obsession with statistics, it's doing everyone's head in now. You seem like a genuine lad so I'd rather let you know. What was once a little personality quirk is now becoming and irritating, tiresome feature of the boards that everyone could do without.

How many De Gea conceded at Athletico compared with how many he conceded at United doesn't prove anything. Different leagues, different players, different styles etc, it's completely irrelevant.

Pickford is one of the most highly rated young keepers in Europe, but if we only judged him on his goals conceded stats we wouldn't quite get the whole picture, would we?

Just step away from the spreadsheets and the Football Manager sims for a while and watch some games.

As I said, I respect Gary Neville's opinion more than anyone on here, and he thinks De Gea's physical improvement was one of the key factors in his improvement in performance in the PL. He also values the physicality aspect of winning this league, and he knows a thing or two about winning this league.
 
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