Grenfell Tower block disaster

cleavers said:
Pretty much all unexpected deaths get a coroners inquest, this is a mass tragedy so its certain there will be one.
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True, but as is pointed out in the link I included in my initial reply, the scope of an inquest when framed in reference to Article 2 of the European Convention on Human RIghts can vary substantially from that of a coroner's inquest; it would appear that that is what residents are demanding. It may be that both a wider inquest and a public enquiry are needed.
 
Bilboblue said:
Ok, what do I know anyway, I only install these systems as a job.

I'll ask somebody better qualified to comment then.
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I designed big fire protection systems for 10 years. You need a lot of water at the top of high buildings for sprinklers to work properly for big fires. "Passive" fire protection in high rise buildings used to work but the system has been f*cked up.
 
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andyhinch said:
He's obviously worked out that it's impossible to put usable sprinkler systems into tower blocks, looks like a few of us have been wasting our time for years ;-)
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If you had read what I have implied in this thread sprinklers systems can be put in high rise blocks that deal with small fires (the water only douses the area in which a bulb breaks or the spinkler system is turned on). But for a fire on the scale of Grenfell Tower your pissing in the wind unless you have a massive great water tank at the top of the building.
 
BlueAnorak said:
True, but like the Manchester Arena the initial dealing with relatives is a bloody shocking. To say nothing is worse than saying something. Families need people to help them deal with not knowing.
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We got the info earlier that initially the fire/police were told there was 400 in the building,you just can't dump inaccurate things out to the public

Sky are following a survivor today and she said she desperately needs to sleep but she is scared to in case she doesn't wake up,they all must be going through hell
 
karen7 said:
Dozens of people are still believed to be inside Grenfell Tower, according to new figures released by police today.

Five members of the El-Wahabi family died in the Grenfell Tower fire, relatives have confirmed.

  • 58 people missing and presumed dead
  • Tube lines part suspended over tower safety fears
  • Criticism of Theresa May 'unfair', says minister
  • Government pledges £5m support fund
Referring to the number presumed dead, Commander Cundy said: "That number 58 may change. I really hope it won't, but it may increase.

"Our focus has been on those that we know were in Grenfell Tower. However, there may be other people who were in there on the night that others were not aware were there.

"That is also an absolute priority for the investigation - to establish who they may be."

Commander Cundy says that at one point, 400 people were reported missing from Grenfell Tower. (can you imagine them putting that fiqure out before checking it out)

http://news.sky.com/story/west-lond...-confirms-there-have-been-fatalities-10915010
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The comment about people being there that others were not aware were there is particularly poignant. The thought that people died, will probably not be identified, and their deaths will go unnoticed is very sad.

I think one of the reasons for the conspiracy theories over how many died is because there hasn't really been a serious attempt to calculate and publish an estimate of how many actually escaped. I did read a comment from the fire service that "large numbers" escaped, but what does "large numbers" mean? I think there has been an assumption that large numbers ie hundreds couldnt possibly have survived that inferno. Hence the assumption that hundreds must have died.
 
cibaman said:
The comment about people being there that others were not aware were there is particularly poignant. The thought that people died, will probably not be identified, and their deaths will go unnoticed is very sad.

I think one of the reasons for the conspiracy theories over how many died is because there hasn't really been a serious attempt to calculate and publish an estimate of how many actually escaped. I did read a comment from the fire service that "large numbers" escaped, but what does "large numbers" mean? I think there has been an assumption that large numbers ie hundreds couldnt possibly have survived that inferno. Hence the assumption that hundreds must have died.
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Hands tied until all those who were missing were proved to be missing and the ones who escaped to come foward,numbers are impossible in 24 /36 hrs,chaos and people running everywhere makes counting impossible and it would be irresponsible(sp) to not wait for proper numbers
 
Whatever the number it's too many, there are two videos now on Facebook taken by firefighters on their way, when it dawns on them what it is their reactions are to be frank harrowing, I've been in a few dodgy fires but going to that I would fully expect people to go in and not come out.
 
Has the Council or Housing Agency been asked to make public a list of all residents in its building? Would they even have such a list? Should there be such a list?
 
Gabriel said:
Has the Council or Housing Agency been asked to make public a list of all residents in its building? Would they even have such a list? Should there be such a list?
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With sub letting and friends/relatives staying a list would be useless i think and the names are only being released once the families are informed and supported
 
Gabriel said:
True, but as is pointed out in the link I included in my initial reply, the scope of an inquest when framed in reference to Article 2 of the European Convention on Human RIghts can vary substantially from that of a coroner's inquest; it would appear that that is what residents are demanding. It may be that both a wider inquest and a public enquiry are needed.
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Obviously there needs to be both, and I wasn't saying otherwise, but an inquest is in front of a judge who politically, should be completely impartial, and only interested in the evidence, whereas an inquiry will be set up by government, and so can (hopefully won't) include an element of people who might not be politically impartial.
 
karen7 said:
With sub letting and friends/relatives staying a list would be useless i think and the names are only being released once the families are informed and supported
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Would sub letting be legal in such a building? Transport authorities are obliged to maintain accurate passenger lists, prompted alas by previous accidents, so perhaps it is time that building operators were obliged to do so as well. I can envisage calls for much tighter regulations.
 
Gabriel said:
Would sub letting be legal in such a building? Transport authorities are obliged to maintain accurate passenger lists, prompted alas by previous accidents, so perhaps it is time that building operators were obliged to do so as well. I can envisage calls for much tighter regulations.
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I don't think it's legal but i think it goes on,there will be a list of legal tennants but i can't see there being a good reason to release it and it's probably data protected issue or something like that
 
karen7 said:
I don't think it's legal but i think it goes on,there will be a list of legal tennants but i can't see there being a good reason to release it and it's probably data protected issue or something like that
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I doubt there even is one, though I would imagine it would have made the job of the emergency services easier.
 
Gabriel said:
I doubt there even is one, though I would imagine it would have made the job of the emergency services easier.
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There will be a list of tenants responsible for paying the rent and who signed for initial tenancies.

On northwards housing website in Manchester they have issued a statement about already cladded tower blocks. They state that the cladding has material which is difficult to ignite

I bet that makes tenants sleep safe

http://www.northwardshousing.co.uk/about-us/news/articles/fire-safety/
 
karen7 said:
We got the info earlier that initially the fire/police were told there was 400 in the building,you just can't dump inaccurate things out to the public

Sky are following a survivor today and she said she desperately needs to sleep but she is scared to in case she doesn't wake up,they all must be going through hell
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People who are clearly missing someone need help. I really can't see how a tiny amount of investigation couldn't identify such people.
 
BlueAnorak said:
If you had read what I have implied in this thread sprinklers systems can be put in high rise blocks that deal with small fires (the water only douses the area in which a bulb breaks or the spinkler system is turned on). But for a fire on the scale of Grenfell Tower your pissing in the wind unless you have a massive great water tank at the top of the building.
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You do realise that had this block had the normal sprinkler system, the fire would have been doused pretty quickly, right?


I have only ever worked on a couple of blocks that had rooftop tanks, and they were buildings that were really old, had tanks in there anyway so replaced the old steel ones with the newer sectional type that gets assembled in place. Most (that still use a tank) are in the basement and are pumped from there.
If there is a fire and the system activates, it would typically only be a few heads that need water, so pumping it would never be a problem.

But as I said, what do I know?
 
This went up near the main entrance of my block of flats on Friday morning,
it's changed, the previous one clearly told us to stay put, now it says 'if in doubt get out'


pic upload edit
 
One of my best mates lost his mum in the Woolworths fire in 1979 he has never been able to truly move on. I hope the victims and their families find whatever peace they can find, it's unimaginable.
 
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