Article 50/Brexit Negotiations

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bugsyblue said:
Why would free movement of people put paid to workers rights? It's the governments duty to protect the workers who are moving here and not to let companies exploit them. You really think the government want to end free movement to protect workers here?
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Businesses import labour from the EU through agencies even Corbyn recognises this, the government can't stop businesses from using EU labour so business namely big business wins, now that we are out or getting out of the EU we can blame our own government for this problem. You asked if governments really want to stop the free movement of labour? I don't think they do but it's worth a shot for the sake of the unskilled poor isn't it?
 
vonkeynotvenky said:
Businesses import labour from the EU through agencies even Corbyn recognises this, the government can't stop businesses from using EU labour so business namely big business wins, now that we are out or getting out of the EU we can blame our own government for this problem. You asked if governments really want to stop the free movement of labour? I don't think they do but it's worth a shot for the sake of the unskilled poor isn't it?
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If businesses use EU labour then they have to still pay them the minimum wage that governs this country. I"m not sure what you're getting at with that statement? And do I think it's right that businesses can employ people from abroad that are better skilled to the job than someone, as you put it, 'unskilled' in this country, absolutely! I don't want subpar people working in our hospitals and schools just because they are British! It is the governments duty to ensure our labour is as skilled and equipped to deal with the demands of the nation. If it fails, for example with the lack of nurses, then of course people need to be recruited from abroad.

At the end of the day no company in their right mind would bring over a foreign worker if they had someone with the same skillset living in the area! That's just common sense.
 
bugsyblue said:
If businesses use EU labour then they have to still pay them the minimum wage that governs this country. I"m not sure what you're getting at with that statement? And do I think it's right that businesses can employ people from abroad that are better skilled to the job than someone, as you put it, 'unskilled' in this country, absolutely! I don't want subpar people working in our hospitals and schools just because they are British! It is the governments duty to ensure our labour is as skilled and equipped to deal with the demands of the nation. If it fails, for example with the lack of nurses, then of course people need to be recruited from abroad.

At the end of the day no company in their right mind would bring over a foreign worker if they had someone with the same skillset living in the area! That's just common sense.
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No it isn't common sense at all and we're talking about people without any skillset, not nurses but UNSKILLED workers.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/15/clive-lewis-labour-eu-free-movement-corbyn

http://www.newstatesman.com/politic...-immigration-has-destroyed-conditions-british

I am not "Getting at" anything just stating a fact voiced by Labour and Conservative politicians.

Jeremy Corbyn: “wholesale” EU immigration has destroyed conditions for British workers
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The Labour leader has told Andrew Marr that his party wants to leave the single market.
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vonkeynotvenky said:
No it isn't common sense at all and we're talking about people without any skillset, not nurses but UNSKILLED workers.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/15/clive-lewis-labour-eu-free-movement-corbyn

http://www.newstatesman.com/politic...-immigration-has-destroyed-conditions-british

I am not "Getting at" anything just stating a fact voiced by Labour and Conservative politicians.
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I just read the first paragraph:

The free movement of people across the EU “hasn’t worked” for millions of Britons, and employers who bring in staff from overseas should be obliged to negotiate with a trade union to ensure that the wages of local workers are not being undercut, according to shadow business secretary Clive Lewis.

So it's about local workers being undercut by cheaper workers from the EU? Right? Therefore a government problem where they need to ensure companies don't get away with paying below the minimum wage (which is illegal) or they need to raise the minimum wage.

At the end of the day we live in a global world and draconic old rules won't change this.
 
bugsyblue said:
I just read the first paragraph:

The free movement of people across the EU “hasn’t worked” for millions of Britons, and employers who bring in staff from overseas should be obliged to negotiate with a trade union to ensure that the wages of local workers are not being undercut, according to shadow business secretary Clive Lewis.

So it's about local workers being undercut by cheaper workers from the EU? Right? Therefore a government problem where they need to ensure companies don't get away with paying below the minimum wage (which is illegal) or they need to raise the minimum wage.

At the end of the day we live in a global world and draconic old rules won't change this.
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I am not arguing that mate and I agree with you completely. But business would never do that they're making a fortune out of importing workers from the EU and EU laws are helping them and of course the government. Turning the tap off and allowing for legislation would be the only way to remove the mechanism because let's face it big business isn't going to do it if it isn't pushed.
Also bringing in a living wage (Yes for EU workers too) would help stem the flow organically but again I can't see that happening either.
 
vonkeynotvenky said:
I am not arguing that mate and I agree with you completely. But business would never do that they're making a fortune out of importing workers from the EU and EU laws are helping them and of course the government. Turning the tap off and allowing for legislation would be the only way to remove the mechanism because let's face it big business isn't going to do it if it isn't pushed.
Also bringing in a living wage (Yes for EU workers too) would help stem the flow organically but again I can't see that happening either.
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It's the same old argument though that fed racism and nationalism over the years. Migrants being blamed because they are undercutting domestic workers. It's rubbish. When will people point the finger at the right folk, i.e. the government. Businesses would never voluntary do that no, they need to be legislated. At the end of the day, if I have a Polish guy willing to work for half the price and twice as hard as a British guy then I'm going to employ the Polish guy. But if due to legislation and stricter penalties for using illegal labour then the only reason I'm going to employ the Polish guy is because he works harder or can do the job better. Then the poor British guy needs to suck it up and improve.

We are also talking about a minor issue here. No system will ever be perfect and boy the EU system is far from it. But the big question is whether the system we are entering into will be better than the one we have? And right now it looks highly unlikely. I also think as a country we are massively regressing. The notion that I can go and work in Spain or Italy just as they can come and work here is brilliant. I just don't understand anyone who doesn't agree with that basic concept.
 
bugsyblue said:
It's the same old argument though that fed racism and nationalism over the years. Migrants being blamed because they are undercutting domestic workers. It's rubbish. When will people point the finger at the right folk, i.e. the government. Businesses would never voluntary do that no, they need to be legislated. At the end of the day, if I have a Polish guy willing to work for half the price and twice as hard as a British guy then I'm going to employ the Polish guy. But if due to legislation and stricter penalties for using illegal labour then the only reason I'm going to employ the Polish guy is because he works harder or can do the job better. Then the poor British guy needs to suck it up and improve.

We are also talking about a minor issue here. No system will ever be perfect and boy the EU system is far from it. But the big question is whether the system we are entering into will be better than the one we have? And right now it looks highly unlikely. I also think as a country we are massively regressing. The notion that I can go and work in Spain or Italy just as they can come and work here is brilliant. I just don't understand anyone who doesn't agree with that basic concept.
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I'm blaming business not the economic migrants it's the system that's to blame, and I am a nationalist I make no secret of that and I voted to Brexit. But it isn't just as simple as you're making it, here is an exerpt from the Guardian which is pretty leftish you'd agree?

New arrivals are vulnerable. Take a look at the Tjobs.ro site, where UK agencies offer British work to Romanians. (It's quite easy to decipher: Romanian looks like Esperanto.) See these jobs for 18- to 24-year-olds, as "apprentices", who only need to be paid the apprentice rate of £2.68 an hour, not the £6.31 minimum wage. The ad offers hotel and catering work for Hilton Hotels, Chelsea Football Club, Marriott hotels, Abbey Care homes and many others. The pay? £650-£1,000 a month, or so it says. Travel and accommodation are provided – but would they be deducted? Would uniforms, travel time and equipment be deducted? Is it piece-work, is it zero hours? Those are commonplace tricks to bring pay far below the minimum wage.

Goodness knows where Victor Spiresau will live. He says his employer will accommodate him, but he may find himself crammed into a hot-bedding house, with 16 people sleeping in shifts. A single man for a short stay may bear it, but no one with a family could live that way. David Hanson, shadow home office minister, debating the immigration bill going through parliament, pulled out ads from the EasyPoland site for rates of pay for British jobs that are illegal: £5.93 an hour for an office worker, £6 for an industrial sewer, £5.80 for a carpenter, all reading ominously "Accommodation: must bring bedding". That site yesterday had an ad for a care assistant, charging £85 rent, with the familiar note: "Company owns the accommodation and will deduct from wages.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/02/curb-immigration-pay-workers-living-wage
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What we are doing is developing an underclass of unemployable people who haven't got a stake in the country because we employ transient labour at a cheaper cost, I for one would have thought the socialist side of the UK would appreciate that.
 
vonkeynotvenky said:
What we are doing is developing an underclass of unemployable people who haven't got a stake in the country because we employ transient labour at a cheaper cost, I for one would have thought the socialist side of the UK would appreciate that.
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That's a bold claim.....The growth of the underclass can be blamed on the free movement of labour.
 
vonkeynotvenky said:
I'm blaming business not the economic migrants it's the system that's to blame, and I am a nationalist I make no secret of that and I voted to Brexit. But it isn't just as simple as you're making it, here is an exerpt from the Guardian which is pretty leftish you'd agree?



What we are doing is developing an underclass of unemployable people who haven't got a stake in the country because we employ transient labour at a cheaper cost, I for one would have thought the socialist side of the UK would appreciate that.
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Firstly I don't agree with that loophole which is being exploited. That needs to be shut down. But secondly, your sentence about how we are creating an underclass of unemployable people, if that's true then why hasn't unemployment risen?
 
vonkeynotvenky said:
Corbyn seems to think so and so it appears does that right wing rag the Guardian. If you're a socialist you should appreciate that.
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Why are you trying to turn it into a socialist v right wing argument? Corbyn doesn't agree with staying in the EU and some of the extreme right of the Tory party don't. It's not a simple left v right agenda.

And equally even if you are a socialist it doesn't mean you have to agree with everything written in a leftwing paper does it.
 
bugsyblue said:
Firstly I don't agree with that loophole which is being exploited. That needs to be shut down. But secondly, your sentence about how we are creating an underclass of unemployable people, if that's true then why hasn't unemployment risen?
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Employment growth has been driven by EU nationals they are factored into the statistics. And we have to add the children don't leave school until they are 18 and we have a huge ESA roll call to take into account.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/feb/15/pay-growth-slows-record-employment-rate-tuc
 
bugsyblue said:
Why are you trying to turn it into a socialist v right wing argument? Corbyn doesn't agree with staying in the EU and some of the extreme right of the Tory party don't. It's not a simple left v right agenda.

And equally even if you are a socialist it doesn't mean you have to agree with everything written in a leftwing paper does it.
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No but if you are a socialist you have to have socialist ideals. And it does appear to be a pretty much left and right argument if this thread is anything to go by. It highlights the frailty in the Labour party and how the left forgot the real working poor.
 
vonkeynotvenky said:
Employment growth has been driven by EU nationals they are factored into the statistics. And we have to add the children don't leave school until they are 18 and we have a huge ESA roll call to take into account.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/feb/15/pay-growth-slows-record-employment-rate-tuc
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I'm not an expert in the subject but that article relates to employment growth not unemployment numbers. It implies job growth is driven by EU nationals coming over more than domestically lead growth, doesn't it? My understanding is unemployment numbers haven't risen which is strange if EU nationals are taking British jobs?

Also you highlight that most people don't leave school until they are 18 which kind of undercuts your statement about growing an unskilled unemployed workforce.

And my final point, all you've done is highlight the negative side of free labour movement. You haven't spoken about the overwhelming positive side. For every 'foreigner' coming over here and stealing a delivery job, there's a foreigner who has come over, left their family, and friends, moved to somewhere they didn't know and had to work twice as hard as someone else to be given an opportunity. I will never berate them for that just because they weren't born on this soil. None of us choose where we were born and it's for that reason I fundamentally disagree with nationalism.
 
bugsyblue said:
I'm not an expert in the subject but that article relates to employment growth not unemployment numbers. It implies job growth is driven by EU nationals coming over more than domestically lead growth, doesn't it? My understanding is unemployment numbers haven't risen which is strange if EU nationals are taking British jobs?

Also you highlight that most people don't leave school until they are 18 which kind of undercuts your statement about growing an unskilled unemployed workforce.

And my final point, all you've done is highlight the negative side of free labour movement. You haven't spoken about the overhauling positive side. For every 'foreigner' coming over here and staling a delivery job, there's a foreigner who has come over, left their family, and friends, moved to somewhere they didn't know and had to work twice as hard as someone else to be given an opportunity. I will never berate them for that just because they weren't born on this soil. None of us choose where we were born and it's for that reason I fundamentally disagree with nationalism.
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We will totally disagree with this debate but as ever I really do respect your views we are all allowed a vote and a say in how things pan out.
 
vonkeynotvenky said:
No but if you are a socialist you have to have socialist ideals. And it does appear to be a pretty much left and right argument if this thread is anything to go by. It highlights the frailty in the Labour party and how the left forgot the real working poor.
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It’s heartwarming watching the socialists on here fight the good fight for global corporations and their mass mobilisation of cheap labour driving down wages for the poor. Like you say Corbyn, the real Brexit hero, recognises the problem, even the 2017 fully costed santa manifesto stated that freedom of movement will end when we leave the European Union.
 
vonkeynotvenky said:
It's all about baby steps and which part of the jurisdiction we keep in house and what level of immigration we agree to with the EU instead of this carte blanc ideology in place right now. Where immigration is concerned the Tories don't have it under control (From outside the EU) and that has to be addressed first although I doubt they will get to that and day soon. We simply cannot allow someone like Merkel flood the EU with cheap 3rd world labour feeding big business and turn a blind eye any longer.
For now though I am more than happy to have that nasty flag of the EU removed from our buildings and for my bananas to be wonky...plus it gives me a chance to blame politicians of all sides for the messes they get us into.
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For "flood the EU with cheap 3rd world labour" read Merkel offering a home in Germany to people fleeing war zones - while May does all she can to keep out refugees (and Farage scandalously does a poster which obviously persuaded you).
 
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