Are Labour a total shambles now as an opposition?

Ah, decent conversation, at last!

I have no desire for the making of play things (gaming items, sports wear, useless things) to be considered more than the worth of looking after Human needs, not wants. 'Want' becomes a private transaction between a buyer and seller. The person making those items for desire deserve to be treated as Human beings, so yeah, there needs to be 'reasonable' payment, which we agree on. Profits are going to be affected; that's just the way it is, until the companies decide to offset this by adjusting to the market.

I'm MORE concerned about Human service to each other. Human to Human cannot be worth less!! It's a Human Being that shows love and kindness, looks after other lonely Human Beings, older Human Beings, unwell Human Beings, etc.

We have to find the balance, you're absolutely correct and something we both agree on!

So, yes, if you ask the public, they are more willing to contribute to the NHS to save it. To contribute more to society to make things better, if it goes DIRECTLY where it needs to, but business SHOULD/ MUST contribute more for this to work.

I do wonder, is it the long term goal for robots to take over? Will we all get a personalised bot to do our every bidding, every thought?

Is that dystopian future really what we're looking at...?

You might think I'm being dramatic, but blink and we're there!

I'm not being funny mate, but honestly you sound like an idealist who's unfortunately completely out of touch with reality. I don't doubt the sincerity of what you say, nor your motives, but it's so far reality, it's just fantasy.

The reality is money makes the world go around, not human kindness. I am sure you wish it were different. Businesses exist to make money, i.e. profit. The most successful businesses are the ones which make the most profit. Ones making less profit, have less money to invest, to grow and to employ more people. They wither, decline and ultimately die, or get taken over by the successful businesses.

In a bubble we might be able to intervene to make businesses pay people more than they are worth, without making those businesses uncompetitive and ultimately damaging their growth and the numbers of people they employ. But we don't live in a bubble - we compete with 100+ other nations over which we have no control nor influence. And whilst that's the case, simply paying our citizens more, is not a sustainable answer.

In 100 years maybe things will be different, but that's how it is for the rest of my lifetime and probably yours.
 
There is a huge raft of legislation on the statute books to protect employees' rights, so I'm not sure whether your example above is realistic or not. In my experience, employers are more concerned about keeping good employees than going for the cheapest which is a false economy.

You might have a sense of your own worth but frankly, that's irrelevant if no one else shares that view. The reality is that the market rightly rewards hard work, skills and experience. If you want to better your position and ultimately what you get paid, get a skill or professional qualification that is in demand. If that means working or studying in your spare time to achieve that, so be it. Don't expect something for nothing and no one owes you a living.

Spoken like a guy that works in the private sector!

Okay, at least I know(cos I witness the shit every day) that people that look after other Human Beings are worth less, literally, and that's not about 'good employees' but about cheaper labour!!

Public sector employees that spend their time, entertaining hospitalised drunkards, suicides, anorexics, mentally ill, cancer ridden road victim patients are not worth that much, cos hey! it's a competitive market out there.

I don't know what you do, job-wise, but literally, the NHS has had to employ people from overseas because there is no Human dignity in the job of looking after Humans! Tapping away at a computer is less stress and pays more!!

Well, we're at that bridge now with 'Brexit'. Where does your myopic view on worth take you now??

And this is your world preference...?

I'm not being funny mate, but honestly you sound like an idealist who's unfortunately completely out of touch with reality. I don't doubt the sincerity of what you say, nor your motives, but it's so far reality, it's just fantasy.

The reality is money makes the world go around, not human kindness. I am sure you wish it were different. Businesses exist to make money, i.e. profit. The most successful businesses are the ones which make the most profit. Ones making less profit, have less money to invest, to grow and to employ more people. They wither, decline and ultimately die, or get taken over by the successful businesses.

In a bubble we might be able to intervene to make businesses pay people more than they are worth, without making those businesses uncompetitive and ultimately damaging their growth and the numbers of people they employ. But we don't live in a bubble - we compete with 100+ other nations over which we have no control nor influence. And whilst that's the case, simply paying our citizens more, is not a sustainable answer.

In 100 years maybe things will be different, but that's how it is for the rest of my lifetime and probably yours.

What price is the 'worth'? It's gone from 6.20 an hr to 8.70 as minimum wage. Why??

Clearly there's more money in the tank, for big businesses than is let on! Why not stick to the lie of un-affordability?

Bernie Sanders as well as Corbyn, share my world view of Human dignity.

How did Bernie Sanders, a pretty unknown senator from Vermont in 2015, manage to close a 60 pt gap against Clinton (only to be cheated of his place) in 2016 if it is all idealism...?

In this country, austerity was being forced down our throats as we're told it was 'necessary'(like WMD's, right??) is now being eased off!

How were your roads looking in that time? Your refuse collection?? Your policing and ambulance responses?

We just can't afford to pay you more, but we can raise your car tax, rent and utilities?

It's not "in a bubble", it IS a bubble and it's stretching pretty thin!

I think people are tired enough to want to try a different path, a bit like turning to Pres 45 in the US.

Anything to make life better and it's shocking that you think is idealism when in the States that Living Wage law is to be met by 2021.

The clue is there, you just refuse to see it.
 
Spoken like a guy that works in the private sector!

Okay, at least I know(cos I witness the shit every day) that people that look after other Human Beings are worth less, literally, and that's not about 'good employees' but about cheaper labour!!

Public sector employees that spend their time, entertaining hospitalised drunkards, suicides, anorexics, mentally ill, cancer ridden road victim patients are not worth that much, cos hey! it's a competitive market out there.

I don't know what you do, job-wise, but literally, the NHS has had to employ people from overseas because there is no Human dignity in the job of looking after Humans! Tapping away at a computer is less stress and pays more!!

Well, we're at that bridge now with 'Brexit'. Where does your myopic view on worth take you now??

And this is your world preference...?


My career largely in the private sector but I've worked in the NHS too.

Some hard facts

1. Absenteeism in the private sector is only about 1.5% meaning on average people only take 4 days sick pa largely because sickness is not rewarded as it is in the NHS. Absenteeism in the NHS is in excess of 4% meaning on average people take off 2 weeks sick each year. That costs the NHS billions each year.

2. Sanctions for poor performance in the NHS are inadequate. It's almost impossible to fire people for poor performance. In the private sector, poor performance is not tolerated.

3. NHS pensions are extremely generous when compared to those available in the private sector.

You think you're poorly paid? Well, add on the generous pension benefits and if you're an average worker also add on the extra 2 weeks holiday you get whenever you chuck a sickie and lastly you have little chance of being fired even if your performance is inadequate.

Get a job in the private sector and see how you fare. If you don't have the necessary skills for that, then ask yourself objectively what you think you're worth. No one pays you to be nice.
 
My career largely in the private sector but I've worked in the NHS too.

Some hard facts

1. Absenteeism in the private sector is only about 1.5% meaning on average people only take 4 days sick pa largely because sickness is not rewarded as it is in the NHS. Absenteeism in the NHS is in excess of 4% meaning on average people take off 2 weeks sick each year. That costs the NHS billions each year.

2. Sanctions for poor performance in the NHS are inadequate. It's almost impossible to fire people for poor performance. In the private sector, poor performance is not tolerated.

3. NHS pensions are extremely generous when compared to those available in the private sector.

You think you're poorly paid? Well, add on the generous pension benefits and if you're an average worker also add on the extra 2 weeks holiday you get whenever you chuck a sickie and lastly you have little chance of being fired even if your performance is inadequate.

Get a job in the private sector and see how you fare. If you don't have the necessary skills for that, then ask yourself objectively what you think you're worth. No one pays you to be nice.

Oh, you're really milking the whole "Human kindness" wording, aren't you??

What's YOUR role in the private sector?

Let's compare it properly.

I don't see why you have an issue with a public sector worker earning a living wage.
 
The reality is that the market rightly rewards hard work, skills and experience.

Really? Always? If you think of what cleaners, carers, health workers and the like contribute to society and their rewards I think you are wrong. The person who cleans the old folks home, the health worker who wipes the arse of the elderly and changes dressings, the carer who gets 15 mins with a lonely elderly person every day to see to their needs - they get a pitiful reward for what they do. Many have studied, many have qualifications and experience but are in a profession - maybe a vocation - that society doesn't seem to value. Whereas many people who simply move money about to make loads of money get huge reward and are able to buy their own peace of mind by fobbing off their elderly and infirm parents into the care of the low paid.
 
Really? Always? If you think of what cleaners, carers, health workers and the like contribute to society and their rewards I think you are wrong. The person who cleans the old folks home, the health worker who wipes the arse of the elderly and changes dressings, the carer who gets 15 mins with a lonely elderly person every day to see to their needs - they get a pitiful reward for what they do. Many have studied, many have qualifications and experience but are in a profession - maybe a vocation - that society doesn't seem to value. Whereas many people who simply move money about to make loads of money get huge reward and are able to buy their own peace of mind by fobbing off their elderly and infirm parents into the care of the low paid.

This is what I chopped from my post, the other day!

I get so mad with the lack of vision from these posters that I go off on a tangent and have to delete sh*t to keep a 'peace' and is why my posts seem quite disjointed at times!!

It's maddening to see it every day in a hospital, never mind going out to be in the neighbourhood pain.

The guy doesn't understand why these type of public workers get so sick mentally and physically being close to illness and mental illness, old people coming to die(literally), people not wanting return home to be alone. Where I am is microcosm of the city and it's fookin stressful!!

And all you can do is patch them up and send them on their way.

I've stopped getting to know certain aged patients as I'm afraid they'll pass over the weekend and I feel down knowing they've gone.

I'm, personally, stressed from being around that and dealing with my own sh*t, so I'm leaving the ward next month.

I feel it's rinse and repeat every day, see the same patients return, seeing nurses leave, HCAs quit, Drs move on. I'm sure I've copped out, but I have to think about me and what I'm paid isn't worth it.

I need to stop ranting...
 
This is what I chopped from my post, the other day!

I get so mad with the lack of vision from these posters that I go off on a tangent and have to delete sh*t to keep a 'peace' and is why my posts seem quite disjointed at times!!

It's maddening to see it every day in a hospital, never mind going out to be in the neighbourhood pain.

The guy doesn't understand why these type of public workers get so sick mentally and physically being close to illness and mental illness, old people coming to die(literally), people not wanting return home to be alone. Where I am is microcosm of the city and it's fookin stressful!!

And all you can do is patch them up and send them on their way.

I've stopped getting to know certain aged patients as I'm afraid they'll pass over the weekend and I feel down knowing they've gone.

I'm, personally, stressed from being around that and dealing with my own sh*t, so I'm leaving the ward next month.

I feel it's rinse and repeat every day, see the same patients return, seeing nurses leave, HCAs quit, Drs move on. I'm sure I've copped out, but I have to think about me and what I'm paid isn't worth it.

I need to stop ranting...

guy sits at a desk buying and selling currency all day - makes a fortune for his employers, gets amply rewarded and a big ol' bonus at the end of the year.

The same employers outsource cleaning to the cheapest firm they can get who pay wages at the lowest legally they can get away with.

Now ask yourself - can the guy do his job in a H&S compliant environment without the cleaner? Will the guy at the desk empty his own bin and hoover round his workstation at the end of the day? PMSL at the concept. Can the employer and the guy forfeit a tiny proportion of their income and the cleaner get pad that bit more - say £10 per hour as proposed? Answer seems to be no because society will fall apart if altruism is allowed to flourish - or at least according to the Chicken Little's on here.
 
guy sits at a desk buying and selling currency all day - makes a fortune for his employers, gets amply rewarded and a big ol' bonus at the end of the year.

The same employers outsource cleaning to the cheapest firm they can get who pay wages at the lowest legally they can get away with.

Now ask yourself - can the guy do his job in a H&S compliant environment without the cleaner? Will the guy at the desk empty his own bin and hoover round his workstation at the end of the day? PMSL at the concept. Can the employer and the guy forfeit a tiny proportion of their income and the cleaner get pad that bit more - say £10 per hour as proposed? Answer seems to be no because society will fall apart if altruism is allowed to flourish - or at least according to the Chicken Little's on here.

I must admit I once left a job because my bin wasn’t emptied, that post it stuck to the bottom caused me untold stress.
 
Spoken like a guy that works in the private sector!

Okay, at least I know(cos I witness the shit every day) that people that look after other Human Beings are worth less, literally, and that's not about 'good employees' but about cheaper labour!!

Public sector employees that spend their time, entertaining hospitalised drunkards, suicides, anorexics, mentally ill, cancer ridden road victim patients are not worth that much, cos hey! it's a competitive market out there.

I don't know what you do, job-wise, but literally, the NHS has had to employ people from overseas because there is no Human dignity in the job of looking after Humans! Tapping away at a computer is less stress and pays more!!

Well, we're at that bridge now with 'Brexit'. Where does your myopic view on worth take you now??

And this is your world preference...?



What price is the 'worth'? It's gone from 6.20 an hr to 8.70 as minimum wage. Why??

Clearly there's more money in the tank, for big businesses than is let on! Why not stick to the lie of un-affordability?

Bernie Sanders as well as Corbyn, share my world view of Human dignity.

How did Bernie Sanders, a pretty unknown senator from Vermont in 2015, manage to close a 60 pt gap against Clinton (only to be cheated of his place) in 2016 if it is all idealism...?

In this country, austerity was being forced down our throats as we're told it was 'necessary'(like WMD's, right??) is now being eased off!

How were your roads looking in that time? Your refuse collection?? Your policing and ambulance responses?

We just can't afford to pay you more, but we can raise your car tax, rent and utilities?

It's not "in a bubble", it IS a bubble and it's stretching pretty thin!

I think people are tired enough to want to try a different path, a bit like turning to Pres 45 in the US.

Anything to make life better and it's shocking that you think is idealism when in the States that Living Wage law is to be met by 2021.

The clue is there, you just refuse to see it.

I had you all the way through until you mentioned “WMD’s”.

It’s the classic Facebook far lefty “woke” crap.

But the rest of your post is good.
 
Really? Always? If you think of what cleaners, carers, health workers and the like contribute to society and their rewards I think you are wrong. The person who cleans the old folks home, the health worker who wipes the arse of the elderly and changes dressings, the carer who gets 15 mins with a lonely elderly person every day to see to their needs - they get a pitiful reward for what they do. Many have studied, many have qualifications and experience but are in a profession - maybe a vocation - that society doesn't seem to value. Whereas many people who simply move money about to make loads of money get huge reward and are able to buy their own peace of mind by fobbing off their elderly and infirm parents into the care of the low paid.

I have much admiration for cleaners, carers etc but the hard fact is their basic skills, as such, are easily replicated so anyone with a little basic training can do the job. The rarer the skills, the higher the reward. Which is why footballers get paid so much.
 
Apparently Wetherspoons would go under without the welfare system (paid for by me and you) thats supports their staff ..... enabling the owner to trouser millions in dividends and profits .... at least fair play he pays his taxes
Well, you can thank Gordon Brown for introducing one of the most ridiculous policies ever, to tax
people on earnings, then hand it back in tax credits is ludicrous and also adds a large layer of unnecessary bureaucracy
to administration. Topping up wages in this fashion as well is ridiculous, and merely encourages companies to pay
the minimum.
 
I have much admiration for cleaners, carers etc but the hard fact is their basic skills, as such, are easily replicated so anyone with a little basic training can do the job. The rarer the skills, the higher the reward. Which is why footballers get paid so much.

I didn't say that shouldn't be the case my point is that the pot needs to be spread out in a fairer way - the difference between the rewards for the managers and the cleaners is multiples of times bigger than it ever was - that unfairness cannot be moral or right.
 
don't think Corbyn can sack her under the party constitution and Parliamentary rules but yep come the next election she is toast - currently just milking the salary now until the inevitable. Bet she doesn't pop into her local Labour club for a drink any time soon lol
Thing is, I know a few exactly the same as her, caught doing 35 or so, flashed by a camera, and used another
persons licence to get off with it.If and when you're caught though, you don't compound the problem by denial, like this
arrogant cow did, the same as that wanker Hulme who got sent down for it did, just admit it all and although
you'll get fined and shown up, I doubt you'd go down.
 
Thing is, I know a few exactly the same as her, caught doing 35 or so, flashed by a camera, and used another
persons licence to get off with it.If and when you're caught though, you don't compound the problem by denial, like this
arrogant cow did, the same as that wanker Hulme who got sent down for it did, just admit it all and although
you'll get fined and shown up, I doubt you'd go down.

yes well she has stupidly brought a greater downfall upon herself - as you say, fess up and take the points. Deserves all thats coming to her.
 
I didn't say that shouldn't be the case my point is that the pot needs to be spread out in a fairer way - the difference between the rewards for the managers and the cleaners is multiples of times bigger than it ever was - that unfairness cannot be moral or right.

And how would you do that? And what would be fairer? Higher taxes? We are already suffering the highest tax burden in the last 30 years which is increasingly affecting our competitiveness in atttacting overseas investment and constraining economic growth.Tax the rich? ( I'd like to know how you would define the rich - £70,000 pa puts you in the top 5% of earners). The top 1% of income earners already pay a third of all income tax collected and in total is greater than the amount paid by the bottom 90% of tax payers.

Lastly, income tax only yields around a third of all government revenues (VAT and other taxes account for the rest) so there is a limit to what increasing income tax can do. Of course, if you wanted to tax the top 50% more to subsidise the bottom 50%, that would lead to a huge cut in economic demand due to reduced net disposable income and likely leading to a recession and loss of jobs making such a move highly counter productive.

And that's the problem with the woolly headed hand wringing economic policies of the Left - a complete inability to honestly represent the impact on economic growth and tax revenues from their policies.
 

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