Another new Brexit thread

[mcfc1632]

Didn't seem like you understood that this deal is worse than Theresa May's either since you ignored the video I posted lmao

I often ignore the blatantly ill-informed

This deal removes the utterly ruinous UK-wide backstop - therefore it is patently better than May's deal

If you do not understand that then there is little help I can give you

 

[mcfc1632]

I bet you didn't think he'd agree a solution that he said no British government could agree to. Even allowing for his being a notorious liar, that's some achievement.

Hmmm

Predicted it for months actually

I refer you to my post #6987 - August - within which I said:

".... As part of that agreement, respect the EU's position re the protection of the SM and agree that the only practical thing to do is to have a border down the Irish Sea....."

Or how about #5357 - also August:

Just my prediction

The vote to leave will be overturned - I put that at 85%

The UK will leave the EU - I put that at 15%
if the latter occurs - it will be following a GE that sees Boris retain power and results in a fudged agreement on the backstop that sees it pertain to N.I. only - with a promise that it will only be adopted until alternative arrangements can be made...…..

Or my post #7590 which again states the same prediction - Irish Sea border

Or #10692

etc. etc.

It is what comes from undertaking objective assessment and being consistent

Do you want to reply accepting that I was indeed correct in my predictions and yourself wrong with the assumption you make in this post?

As mentioned to BJ - being wrong is not a hanging offence​

 

[mcfc1632]

I fucking hate that - the idea that somehow the way you voted in the Referendum was a test of a persons patriotism is the lowest of the low. All these people calling MP's and the like traitors and so on is pathetic but thats a way of seeing how Brexit has riven our society and weaponised words.

Ha - there you go - typical Remainer ranting without thinking it through

You are jumping in and making assumptions that my reference was to the way people voted in the referendum and / or I am calling people traitors

Utterly wrong - it had nothing to do with the referendum vote - so calm your fevered brow

Oh - and I will await your apology for that false assumption

 

[Saddleworth2]

I often ignore the blatantly ill-informed

This deal removes the utterly ruinous UK-wide backstop - therefore it is patently better than May's deal

If you do not understand that then there is little help I can give you

Worse for the economy than Mays deal according to Bloombergs.
I get that you like it but there is a debate whether it is better or worse than Mays deal. It is a good sight better than no deal however.
I was wrong about Johnston not making a serious attempt about getting a deal, no matter what motivation led him to do it in the last few weeks so hands up to that. The scale of his achievement must be tempered though. This Irish model was on the table some time ago and was discarded in favour of the UK proposed backstop.
My ideal is that the deal is waved through the houses of common with an amendment that pitches it against Remain. Then let the country decide once and for all.

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

Corbyn has had it. He's been completely boxed into a corner now the EU have said they have done a deal and they won't give an extension. A large part of the electorate wont forget that it will be seen that him and his party that rejected the deal and dragged this on adinfinitum !. Talk about putting himself first in his desparate and futile attempt to get into no10.

Oh dear ..... being a Conservative you wouldn't understand how the democratic process works ....

I think you'll find that all member states will have a say on wether an extension is granted ... not just one individual who doesn't hold a vote anyway

 

[mcfc1632]

Worse for the economy than Mays deal according to Bloombergs.
I get that you like it but there is a debate whether it is better or worse than Mays deal. It is a good sight better than no deal however.
I was wrong about Johnston not making a serious attempt about getting a deal, no matter what motivation led him to do it in the last few weeks so hands up to that. The scale of his achievement must be tempered though. This Irish model was on the table some time ago and was discarded in favour of the UK proposed backstop.
My ideal is that the deal is waved through the houses of common with an amendment that pitches it against Remain. Then let the country decide once and for all.

I understand their analysis

My analysis comes from the starting point of how the unfettered backstop would be used to control the UK's key policies for many years to come - it therefore follows that IMO - any deal that removes the ruinous risk of the unfettered backstop is better than May's deal

Also, respectfully - you are wrong. I do not like this deal - I consider it to be far worse than could have been achieved if we had not been led by donkeys - May and Robbins. I am just pragmatic and realise Johnson's starting position.

Good to see you admit you were wrong - you stand head and shoulders above others in that regard

I have always acknowledged that the deal was previously available - but that is not really the point.

In negotiations this deal then became a challenge for us to secure because the lamentable May and Robbins gifted the EU a far better deal with the unfettered backstop.

So many on here exulted that the EU would not reopen the WA - and now prefer to squirm than man up to simply being wrong

I fear that you will get your ideal outcome

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

Quick question. If we left with no deal at all would we have a hard border between the two Irelands ?

Yes.... the Eu wont accept goods that are not of a 'standard' ..... so would have to either refuse to trade or go through customs checks

 

[mcfc1632]

wow.
Very poor even by your standards.

Given others have taken my comment out of context - I best clarify.

I was referring to MPs voting on Saturday for the good of the UK rather than narrow political gains

I was not referring to citizens

 

[Coatigan]

An Englishman walks into a pub.
Normally there'd be a Scotsman and an Irishman there, but they are away trading with the rest of Europe.

(Ok, mibby a couple of years too soon for that one.)

 

[urban genie]

Nearly very commentator and ecconomist saying the deal is worse than Mays, but brexit fatigue looks like it may get pushed through.

She is probably sat at home laughing her tits off .

 

[Rascal]

After years of fucking about by everyone in politics, we now come to the end game. Irrespective of your own views, we have an agreement that satisfies the UK and EU about a leave position and it now falls upon the members of parliament to vote this through

Any politician of any party, should now vote in line with the decision of their electorate. This has nothing to do with your opinion, it has everything to do with the mechanics of democracy.

I'm absolutely pissed off with chancers obstructing the government for their own self interests. We (the important people don't forget) voted LEAVE!!. just do the job you are supposed to do and carry out the will of the people.

Whilst getting an agreement is all well and good, I applaud the **** for getting one, people still do not understand how parliament should work,

MPs are not delegates, they are representatives and part of their contract with the electorate is once they are elected they are given the right to free "will" that means they can use their own judgement on any matter forthcoming.

If the "will" of the people is taken as more important as the "will" of the Parliamentarian then it undermines the basic principles of our democracy. Parliamentarians are not chancers they are using their conscience as expressed at the GE in which they were elected. Asking a person to vote against their conscience undermines their legitimacy. They become tools of the electorate rather than the conscience of the electorate.

I really am appalled at how this whole Brexit process has undermined our system of Government and the recklessness shown by people who should respect our institutions has been nothing short of disgraceful. The whole point of taking back control is rendered useless if politicians in the Legislature are expected to meekly accept the wishes of the Executive. That is not democracy it is despotism.

Ultimately it comes down to where sovereignty lies and sovereignty only rests with the people for one day on the day of General Election, the referendum has clouded that principle of sovereignty and is a reason why I am so anti referendum. We simply do not have the constitutional provision for direct democracy and I see that a 2nd referendum is now being mooted which is a huge mistake as it will further muddy the waters of where sovereignty actually lies.

I hope it isn't the case, but I think this is far from over but I don't see a way other than Parliamentary "bribery" that the deal can be passed and if that is the case then our Sovereignty is further undermined by the control of the executive.

 

[Vic]

Seriously - You believe Hammond's figures?
Examining the entrails of a goat would be as accurate.
Enjoy Brexit as Hungary will probably veto an extension. Bojo had Orban over for tea and biscuits a couple of weeks ago.

Hammond has gone. The Treasury (and the figures) are still there.

 

[Gabriel]

An Englishman walks into a pub.
Normally there'd be a Scotsman and an Irishman there, but they are away trading with the rest of Europe.

(Ok, mibby a couple of years too soon for that one.)

Surely the Englishman would be too busy somewhere else, in a boteca, cantina, or izakaya, say?

 

[urban genie]

An Englishman walks into a pub.
Normally there'd be a Scotsman and an Irishman there, but they are away trading with the rest of Europe.

(Ok, mibby a couple of years too soon for that one.)

Shirley the pubs have all closed down already

 

[Vic]

I often ignore the blatantly ill-informed

This deal removes the utterly ruinous UK-wide backstop - therefore it is patently better than May's deal

If you do not understand that then there is little help I can give you

But not better than the deal May could have had two years ago.

 

[Coatigan]

Surely the Englishman would be too busy somewhere else, in a boteca, cantina, or izakaya, say?

Lol, what part of taking back control did you miss. It'll be a wetherspoons!

 

[Ban-jani]

@Cheadle_hulmeBlue

Take comfort in the fact that you clearly understand more about things than this fella;-)

He really doesn’t and neither do you.

 

[Ban-jani]

You are able to fool yourself - such is your level of denial

No mean feat that

Th EU banked the May deal which was/is better for them than their previously offered settlement - and you exulted in their claim they would not reopen the WA

You and others have been proven to be utterly wrong - just you need to twist rather then 'man up'

If that was the case then why did they just accept this pretty much right away?

How do you explain that one Mr “I advise the government” (lol).

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

Farage behaving like a dick for a change .

Realising that if mps vote it through he is toast

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

Again, another falsehood.

I’ll leave it to your fellow leavers @kevin horlocks wand @Mëtal Bikër @blueinsa to confirm that I’ve been saying for weeks I hope a deal is done. They may disagree with me often, especially the latter of the trio but I’m sure they’d be kind enough to confirm.

If this passes on Saturday, I’ll give a sigh of relief.

Oh and with reference to threatening no deal, it wasn’t working and wouldn’t have worked. The Benn Act did nothing but force Johnson to go for this deal, because it was this or no deal, the EU were meeting his bluff.

he has