COVID-19 — Coronavirus

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This is a really good article about how it spreads, particularly indoors.

I have questions - has a spray not been invented that you can use indoors to kill the aerosols and droplets in the air? It would seem the most obvious solution to keeping schools, offices, shops and hospitality open? Can they not make a spray form of the alcohol gel?

english.elpais.com

A room, a bar and a classroom: how the coronavirus is spread through the air

The risk of contagion is highest in indoor spaces but can be reduced by applying all available measures to combat infection via aerosols. Here is an overview of the likelihood of infection in three everyday scenarios, based on the safety measures used and the length of exposure
english.elpais.com english.elpais.com
 
The timing and likely efficacy of a widely available vaccine is likely a key factor that should play into the decisions that the government make on lockdown policy - along with the strictly scientific advice of sage and other inputs

It that nationwide availability is imminent - and my that I mean in 2021 - then the approach of national lockdowns every 2-3 months can perhaps be justified and sustained on the basis that it is happening against a target end date. In that way it is finite and I would suggest that people can get their heads around that. Also - on the basis of a target end date - the government can be more assertive about enforcing lockdowns - and be better able to communicate the reasoning.

But without some such level of certainty - or at least a fair level of confidence - that an effective vaccine would be available within a year then I am really not convinced that full scale lockdowns are the way to go at all - for all sorts of reasons. The economic reasons are obvious and very significant and should not be easily dismissed - they have wide-ranging implications for the physical and mental health of the nation as well. There are other reasons as well - there will be wide spread impacts on health in other areas with illnesses and diseases going undiscovered and untreated.

On balance I think that - until there is significant level of confidence of a vaccine on the horizon - this approach of regional lockdowns seems sensible to me. Maybe there can be a sense of 'taking turns' - which could be as therapeutic as 'we are all in this together'?

Afterall - if the case for a national lockdown is sound - would it not follow that in those regions that are in Tier 3 restrictions the infection rate should some down and those not in Tier 3 - the infection rate should go up and therefore trigger them going into Tier 3.

If the evidence is that it is generally the same regions that have the high infection rates and those not in Tier 3 have not increased to Tier 3 levels - then surely the case for a national lockdown is not sound and other approaches need to be considered to understand why that is and what to do about it.
 
kevin horlocks wand said:
What I am discovering watching the news is everyone else in the uk has a massive party for xmas with 30 40 people present at their houses with huge friends and families round

we typically have one set of parents round and alternate each year to keep the peace !!!
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but over the course of 10 days you've done the rounds. In-laws, family etc.

This is draining. We need one of the vaccines to come off.
 
fulabeer said:
Seems Germany who were praised at the start of the outbreak for their rapid lock down and track and trace system, are admitting this may have only put off/delayed the inevitable spread. Just reading they feel they are now still at the start of it with worse to come. Numbers are rising rapidly despite having all the measures they had at the start plus new methods/data.

Reading up on how they reacted at the start, it would seem the only way to reduce the R number effectively is a total lock down again. But that then just puts it off.
If Germany is now struggling (and are deemed to have done everything correctly)it makes you question how much Track and Trace, bubbles and masks really help.
I assume they help lessen the burden on hospitals at least.

An effective vaccine appears to be the only solution long term. This also depending on how long they last as well.
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The BBC programme Pandemic from a few years ago showed that washing hands, masks and distancing are the biggest factors in stopping the spread of bacteria/virus.

No matter how good a Track and Trace system is, it’s always behind where it needs to be to be effective, it’s always playing catch-up. And if the R is moving faster than the tracks and traces, then Track and Trace is not going to work. Especially when you have wankers who don’t isolate even when they’ve been tracked and traced.
 
Psychedelic Casual said:
The BBC programme Pandemic from a few years ago showed that washing hands, masks and distancing are the biggest factors in stopping the spread of bacteria/virus.

No matter how good a Track and Trace system is, it’s always behind where it needs to be to be effective, it’s always playing catch-up. And if the R is moving faster than the tracks and traces, then Track and Trace is not going to work. Especially when you have wankers who don’t isolate even when they’ve been tracked and traced.
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And don't forget the wankers who give false details to track and trace for some unknown reason
 
Churchlawtonblue said:
Guys people need to calm down a bit. Its easy to cross the line sometimes, but these are just all our opinions and this is just a forum. Everyone is suffering in some way or other. Tensions are high but no need to have a go at each other imo. This isn't anyone's or groups fault.
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Yeah the thing is I'm happy to debate with fellow posters. I'm not sure why posters have to retort to the "c word" because they don't have the capacity to engage in rational debate and acknowledge the perspective of others.
 
kevin horlocks wand said:
What I am discovering watching the news is everyone else in the uk has a massive party for xmas with 30 40 people present at their houses with huge friends and families round

we typically have one set of parents round and alternate each year to keep the peace !!!
Click to expand...
Glad to hear that it is not just me that is missing out on the big parties

I have the same profile as you - except that, for some reason, it seems to be my wife's parents more than every other year!!
 
kevin horlocks wand said:
www.thesun.co.uk

Coronavirus R rate 'almost 3 in London - and above 2 across the South'

ENGLAND’S coronavirus R rate has risen above 2 in the South – as almost one million are living with the bug, a major study suggests. New data has revealed that the capital’s R rat…
www.thesun.co.uk www.thesun.co.uk

Bad in London
Click to expand...

Bad all over the south mainly going off that.

But hey as sumarised here yesterday it may upset the cornish if the south is locked down so let's leave it.

No fucker in westminster gave a shite locking down the north all when places like barrow were practically covid safe.

The south is fucked lock the lot down and support those affected.
 
jay_mcfc said:
This is a really good article about how it spreads, particularly indoors.

I have questions - has a spray not been invented that you can use indoors to kill the aerosols and droplets in the air? It would seem the most obvious solution to keeping schools, offices, shops and hospitality open? Can they not make a spray form of the alcohol gel?

english.elpais.com

A room, a bar and a classroom: how the coronavirus is spread through the air

The risk of contagion is highest in indoor spaces but can be reduced by applying all available measures to combat infection via aerosols. Here is an overview of the likelihood of infection in three everyday scenarios, based on the safety measures used and the length of exposure
english.elpais.com english.elpais.com
Click to expand...
High humidity should take viral particles out of the air I would have thought. The virus should act as a nucleation site for condensing water in the same way that clouds form?

Short range UV light is a germicide and indeed it is the biggest factor in what lies behind the seasonal effect. There is actually a golden wavelength which kills viral particles but can not penetrate human skin but no one seems to be using this. There could be tremendous application for UV light in filters of air recycling systems in buildings and hospitals . Too late now for all this but I am sure some post-docs somewhere are pursuing this. The technological efforts at the moment are into rapid-testing kits. Big claims are made but whether they work I don't know. Much of the UK research into nanoscience comes out of Oxfordshire.

The top research labs in nanoscience use the diamond light and ISIS facilities in Oxfordshire where they generate X-Ray and neutron beam lines for diffraction experiments that can 'image' condensed matter. X-rays tend to be used for solid matter but hydrogen has virtually no interaction with x-rays so neutron diffraction is used for aqueous solutions (water). It is very complicated to disentangle the structure of fluids because there is no long term order in fluids so you need computing power and molecular dynamics packages which take what we know about inter-atomic forcefields and model their motions step by step. You translate, and rotate functional groups asking at each step whether the move is energetically favourable and if it is you accept it and if it isn't you reject it. The programs feature probabilistic models called monte carlo simulations which are basically random sampling aligned to algorithms. I am trying to learn this stuff at the moment. Not easy when there's Covid and you can't see anyone let alone get in a lab.
 
Northernstorirs said:
Yeah the thing is I'm happy to debate with fellow posters. I'm not sure why posters have to retort to the "c word" because they don't have the capacity to engage in rational debate and acknowledge the perspective of others.
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Maybe because you resorted to making negative assumptions about me just because you disagreed with my view. FWiW i'm sorry for calling you a ****, im a hothead and always get confrontational whenever i feel fronted. Peace.
 
bluethrunthru said:
Not a chance - why would any other party associate themselves with this mess? The only way its remotely possible is almost publicly conduct negotiations and have every decision made public in full when its made so post pandemic if anyone wants to play a blame game the other party can repudiate with evidence. Does any politician really operate in the open like that?
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For the good of the country possibly, Not just playing party politics. I know it wont happen as all politicians are far too precious and too egotistic to realise they might not have all the ideas.
 
Churchlawtonblue said:
The problem is people like their liberal freedoms. i suggested that track and trace phone apps should be made compulsory and that was met with distain and silly arguments against on here yesterday. Someone told a story a few days ago on here that when the NHS phone app was sent to their fellow workers for them to use, a lot of them just deleted it straight away. Yesterday I sugested that all those who are vulnerable should have to take extra precautions and sacrifices and only meet people who have tested negative, many are already taking these precautions, but again that was met with arguments along the lines of teary granny not seeing her grandchildrenso that wouldnt be fair. Alot of people in western society are just not prepared to have their liberal values and freedoms compromised. Even for the greater good of the masses and the economy. Another 4 week lockdown will do little without closing schools imo, and then we will need another one in January and another in March April. Pretty obvious this virus has become more contagious the last couple of months. I think we need to be thinking along slightly different lines and people need to be told not asked. Politcians need to work together not against each other. Starmer Stugeon etc need to be at least brought into cabinet meetings. The message needs to be much clearer.
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The message needs to be more threatening for me n’all, it’s all been far too soft from the start. I know they don’t want to upset the soft arses of society too much but in doing that the arseholes of society get free reign.

The govt need to say more hard hitting things.

“You are not doing enough!” “You are endangering peoples’ lives!” “You are killing people!” “We will fine you!” “We will arrest you!”

I’ve not heard language like that once from them. Their line is always something like “if it wasn’t for everything you have done so far, things would be worse”... but that is not hard hitting enough.
 
A very difficult balancing act continues with people having varied opinions on harsher or softer lockdowns.

The government will be more informed about likely vaccine success etc so this will play into their rationale.

I know just from speaking to people at work just how low peoples mood is.

Without doubt the hardest thing this country has had to live through since WW2 in my opinion.
 
Psychedelic Casual said:
The message needs to be more threatening for me n’all, it’s all been far too soft from the start. I know they don’t want to upset the soft arses of society too much but in doing that the arseholes of society get free reign.

The govt need to say more hard hitting things.

“You are not doing enough!” “You are endangering peoples’ lives!” “You are killing people!” “We will fine you!” “We will arrest you!”
Click to expand...
Fine by me. The same with businesses, companies that clearly break the rules with social distancing etc could easily be closed down and fined. The HSE have the powers to shut unsafe businesses immediately without notice. How many times has this happened due to covid? I could be wrong but i haven't read of one case? Yet if they turned up on a building site and the scaffolding is unsafe they don't hesitate to stop work.
 
Psychedelic Casual said:
The message needs to be more threatening for me n’all, it’s all been far too soft from the start. I know they don’t want to upset the soft arses of society too much but in doing that the arseholes of society get free reign.

The govt need to say more hard hitting things.

“You are not doing enough!” “You are endangering peoples’ lives!” “You are killing people!” “We will fine you!” “We will arrest you!”

I’ve not heard language like that once from them. Their line is always something like “if it wasn’t for everything you have done so far, things would be worse”... but that is not hard hitting enough.
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This everyday of the week, Boris needs to come on TV and say we aren’t the problem you selfish bastards are. If you want to be treated as adults act like one, take responsibility for your own actions stop trying to blame everyone else otherwise we will take that choice from you.
 
worsleyweb said:
A very difficult balancing act continues with people having varied opinions on harsher or softer lockdowns.

The government will be more informed about likely vaccine success etc so this will play into their rationale.

I know just from speaking to people at work just how low peoples mood is.

Without doubt the hardest thing this country has had to live through since WW2 in my opinion.
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Definitely, We need to pull together through this somehow. Im just not sure whether we are making the right decisions. For me this forum is just my sounding board, that's all and im happy to be shot down and argued with. I just try and escape the doom and gloom and stay as positive as possible when talking to my friends and family, especially my daughters as that definitely helps them.
 
Churchlawtonblue said:
Fine by me. The same with businesses, companies that clearly break the rules with social distancing etc could easily be closed down and fined. The HSE have the powers to shut unsafe businesses immediately without notice. How many times has this happened due to covid? I could be wrong but i haven't read of one case? Yet if they turned up on a building site and the scaffolding is unsafe they don't hesitate to stop work.
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Very true. Unsafe air conditioning units, closed until fixed. Staff coming into work when they’ve been tested positive, no social distancing, no mask wearing, management making people come into work when they should be isolating - nothing happens!

I saw an estimated stat last week that around ¼ of all transmissions are taking place in the workplace
 
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