Spurs (A) - Post-Match Thread

[sir baconface]

The charge that has been made is that Pep has not been at any club long enough to have to build his own team to replace the world beaters he inherited. Nonsense! In 2016 he inherited a City team that was clearly on the way down. Two/three windows and half a new team later we watched the Centurions break every PL record in sight. Pep out?

Merlin, Yaya, Fernandinho, Aguero, Kompany, De Bruyne, Sterling?

He did a marvellous job with them but, please, he hardly inherited a bunch of rag-bags and ne’er do wells.

 

[Blue Feather]

I've noticed in the Liverpool and Spurs games in particular that there were often massive gaps between the back 4 and the midfield and with Bernardo and KDB also currently under-par we need to address this area asap. Foden has to be given a run of regular starts and with Mahrez again unimpressive against Spurs he should be replaced by Raheem on the right. I like Rodri as a footballer but as many others have said I think we need a more mobile defensive midfielder

 

[Bluemanc100]

Well put. My articulation skills have been off the past few days.

I remember the elbow on Dave, it was assault. He properly nailed him. They sky said he couldn’t avoid it cos Silva is just so small. Bollax. They’re horrible cunts, and they’re making it far too easy for other fan bases to have a go at us blues.

This is killing off the friendly rivalry among mates for me. Cos there’s just too much needle in it now. Can’t get involved in a footie chat without being called a cheat or someone questioning my moral standing regarding human right
etc.

I had someone I’ve known for years verbally attack me back in august because Bernardo didn’t clap enough for their liking during the guard of honor months before when they came to our place last season.

It got very personal very quickly before I even realised what was going on. Trying to explain that I have no bearing on the actions of a Portuguese millionaire who lives in another city in another country, didn’t seem to register. This is just one instance of many that I’m just so sick and tired of.

And it all stems from media bias, and perception being the absolute truth in these very fucking shallow times.

The same person started another row saying Melwood was up there if not better than the Ethiad campus... oh the furlough was just a joke she tells me; they never let anyone go or intended to take the money blah blah blah.

You just have to laugh, though it’s getting harder and harder.

She also told me Liverpool pay their women’s team the highest wages in women’s football cos they’re a top team with great backing. I reminded her it was until quiet recently that the liVARpuddle women’s team would wear the men’s hand me downs on match day.

It’s gotten to the point I refuse to engage with her on all football matters these days. she just regurgitates the sky sports 15min news reel and the back page of the sun.

I was scolded another time, for bringing the Sun newspaper into it. It was very disrespectful of me to suggest a pool fan would read the Sun after how they’ve treated the families of the 96....

The double standards and how the red twats believe it to be true and worthy of their standing, is almost funny if you’re watching on, as an outsider capable of viewing with any impartiality.

I'm married to one of them so I hear you brother... She sees her arse if I ever dare to criticise them and her family are even worse... Funny as we never talked about football at all when I met her 30 years ago, it seemed to come on suddenly yet it's always my fault when we disagree

There was a piece on the local BBC news the other night about the record for home wins... I only asked her, is there a trophy for that and will they wear a new badge on the shirts and she lost it :-D

 

[eyalluvitt]

I was watching that and fuming. Carragher and Howe both chuckling at Kane basically cheating. If it would have been one of our players the tone would have been very different and they would have said, " It's outrageously he does it every game! How are the refs not seeing it??? It's tactical fouling and cheating and should be stamped out." Those quotes would have been headlines on every tabloid back page and then discussed to death on every football programme until it was, "The dark arts at work, City cheating their way to the title" or other such bollocks. The double standards really wind me up.

As for Pep he has to come up with something new. We had two great seasons using these tactics but they've now been sussed. We lost nine games in the league last season and have already lost two this one and it will easily be nine again if we carry on regardless. I watched Liverpool absolutely bully and destroy a Leicester side that thrashed us 5-2 and they looked miles ahead of us. Fast direct play, pressing, aggression, quick one two's, balls whipped into the box, injuries or not I see them strolling to the title again, depressingly.

Harry Kane when a City player comes within two feet of him

 

[CTID Chris]

Why? Who would want to show themselves up on a public forum by saying they want him out? Apart from the handful of sad sacks of course.

I think at least a good portion of us are dissatisfied with Pep based on the last 4-18 months. A hell of a lot of fans would like to see better football and/or better results. Why would anyone be scared of saying it? People are allowed opinions, and these are valid.

 

[Phil1]

I think at least a good portion of us are dissatisfied with Pep based on the last 4-18 months. A hell of a lot of fans would like to see better football and/or better results. Why would anyone be scared of saying it? People are allowed opinions, and these are valid.

Every opinion is allowed to be voiced. Being unhappy because we aren’t winning double doubles isn’t a fair yardstick to go off considering we have been hit heavily with injuries and the stop start nature of the last 12 months.
I think Pep has earnt the right to correct the wrongs in that time and nobody out there is a better manager to take us forward.
Anybody who wants him gone are just being silly and not looking at the big picture.
That’s my view.

 

[Metalartin]

That is a very stark stat. I hope it was all down to bad luck?

Who has said that it's all down to bad luck?

I'm pretty sure the argument is, there are lots of reasons not just one, as some are conveniently trying to make it. Let me guess, you look at those stats and still think: "It's all just Pep, not the players, no other side factors are involved"?

 

[HarrytheBlue]

You think Spurs play like that in every game ? Of course they don't. They're a free scoring team with a wealth of attacking talent. They've scored 11 (ELEVEN) more league goals having played one more game than us. Yesterday Mourinho adapted his tactics, as all good coaches, do and they totally nullified us. Us gifting them the first goal was a disaster and I never saw us coming back after that.

Maureen's teams tend to park the bus against the better teams - like us, and attack the weaker teams - they've plundered goals in a small number of games - we haven't got going. If I was a Spurs fan, I'd want the 'elite' coach and the exceptional players at his disposal to have more than four shots at home against us. Yes, they got the result, but play us ten times and have four shots, and how many wins would that bring ?

 

[HarrytheBlue]

They finish top four or maybe even win it , they will be delighted.

Results are king, not how you get them.

We used to have a team that was a pleasure to watch, we are now a one dimensional, boring team. Pass, pass , pass and pass again and no end product.

We have declined seriously

Look at Pep's Prem win ratio compared to every other Prem coach. A dip is inevitable, but many on here think we should never have a bad spell.

 

[HarrytheBlue]

I’m well acquainted with those days myself.

The media perception after today’s match will most likely be,
Jose masterclass,
Spurs deserved it,
City a shambles,
can’t defend,
£100m in centre halves.
City can’t score,
Pep can’t coach,
Sterling’s a cheat.
But none of them will say City deserved more or Spurs were lucky.

A stark contrast to the perception that would’ve been spun during the dark days you mentioned in your post. A poor city team in the 90s and 00s would’ve been deemed as lucky with a 2-0 win after being battered.

But today; perception is everything, and it can be spun by enough media shite-hawks regurgitating it on repeat. It’s a fucking tiresome process we have to endure these days mate

Exactly.

 

[HarrytheBlue]

So how long do you think is reasonable to dine on previous glories before asking serious questions? Two years? Five? Ten?

And what entitles (your word) you to dismiss others as hooligans and spoilt twats?

Just my opinion mate. A large chunk of the crowd I sit with are 40/50-something retired members of 'the firm'. They tell us all the same stories week-in, week-out. I'm not dismissing these guys - some are good mates of mine. As for 'spoilt twats', a lot of us are throwing the toys out of the pram because we're nowhere near dominating at the moment.

 

[Keeper!]

Look at Pep's Prem win ratio compared to every other Prem coach. A dip is inevitable, but many on here think we should never have a bad spell.

I would Pep will be thinking this bad spell has lasted far too long and that's all that matters.

We are under performing with the talent we have available, in your eyes that may be acceptable, to me it's not.

 

[StillBluessinceHydeRoad]

Merlin, Yaya, Fernandinho, Aguero, Kompany, De Bruyne, Sterling?

He did a marvellous job with them but, please, he hardly inherited a bunch of rag-bags and ne’er do wells.

I don't really see how you can interpret "a team clearly on the way down" as "a bunch of rag-bags and ne'er do wells." City had won the title in 2014 with a team which had totalled 86 points and scored 102 league goals. This had fallen to 79 points and 83 league goals the next season and in Pellegrini's final season City finished fourth wit 71 goals and only 66 points, only fourth on goal difference. That id a team in decline, "a team on the way down".

The players you name all deserve a place in, not only our hall of fame, but that of English football. But if we look at the squad Pep inherited we can see clearly that Pellegrini's time in charge had been marking time. De Bruyne and Sterling had been bought but it seems that Pep played a role in this. Ya Ya was34 when Pep arrived, Fernandinho was32, Kompany and Merlin both 31 and Sergio a youthful 28 when Pep took over at the Etihad. In addition 6 other regular first teamers were over 30. The entire back four were over 30: Di Michaelis had just left aged 35 and Sagna, Clichy, Zaba and Kolarov wereall in their thirties as was Vinnie who, plagued by muscle injuries, had played only 10 PL games that season. Otamendi was the youngest defender and he was "only" 29! Our full backs were unable to attack down the wings and then get back and our real speed merchant, Jesus Navas, was as old as Clichy! Pep's first task was to begin the rebuilding and reduce the age of the squad; if we assume our best eleven was Hart, Zaba, Otamendi, Kompany, Kolarov, Fernandinho, Ya Ya, Silva, de Bruyne, Sterling, Aguero, how many were over 30 and in the twighlight of their careers? Half that team - which accounts for the "half a team later" comment I made. The 2015-6 team needed an immediate infusion of younger legs and a complete rebuild in the course of the next few years. The younger legs came in the windows of 2016-17 and the complete rebuild of that 2015-6 will come in the next two years as the survivors of that team have to surrender to Father Time.

 

[sir baconface]

I don't really see how you can interpret "a team clearly on the way down" as "a bunch of rag-bags and ne'er do wells." City had won the title in 2014 with a team which had totalled 86 points and scored 102 league goals. This had fallen to 79 points and 83 league goals the next season and in Pellegrini's final season City finished fourth wit 71 goals and only 66 points, only fourth on goal difference. That id a team in decline, "a team on the way down".

The players you name all deserve a place in, not only our hall of fame, but that of English football. But if we look at the squad Pep inherited we can see clearly that Pellegrini's time in charge had been marking time. De Bruyne and Sterling had been bought but it seems that Pep played a role in this. Ya Ya was34 when Pep arrived, Fernandinho was32, Kompany and Merlin both 31 and Sergio a youthful 28 when Pep took over at the Etihad. In addition 6 other regular first teamers were over 30. The entire back four were over 30: Di Michaelis had just left aged 35 and Sagna, Clichy, Zaba and Kolarov wereall in their thirties as was Vinnie who, plagued by muscle injuries, had played only 10 PL games that season. Otamendi was the youngest defender and he was "only" 29! Our full backs were unable to attack down the wings and then get back and our real speed merchant, Jesus Navas, was as old as Clichy! Pep's first task was to begin the rebuilding and reduce the age of the squad; if we assume our best eleven was Hart, Zaba, Otamendi, Kompany, Kolarov, Fernandinho, Ya Ya, Silva, de Bruyne, Sterling, Aguero, how many were over 30 and in the twighlight of their careers? Half that team - which accounts for the "half a team later" comment I made. The 2015-6 team needed an immediate infusion of younger legs and a complete rebuild in the course of the next few years. The younger legs came in the windows of 2016-17 and the complete rebuild of that 2015-6 will come in the next two years as the survivors of that team have to surrender to Father Time.

You make good points about ages and reducing the average age of the squad but...

1) All the players I mentioned were vital cogs in Pep’s two title years. The heart and most of the arteries of the team were inherited. He hardly turned water into wine.

2) Most of the retired or soon-to-be returned warriors have inferior replacements. This despite a huge spend.

Now I’m not saying Pep’s shit or anything remotely like it. I’m putting things into perspective. Whether he can effect a major rebuild and propel this team to former glories very much remain to be seen. A couple of major (i.e. PL and/or CL) titles in the next three years would say yes. Much less would be pretty ho hum.)

 

[StillBluessinceHydeRoad]

You make good points about ages and reducing the average age of the squad but...

1) All the players I mentioned were vital cogs in Pep’s two title years. The heart and most of the arteries of the team were inherited. He hardly turned water into wine.

2) Most of the retired or soon-to-be returned warriors have inferior replacements. This despite a huge spend.

Now I’m not saying Pep’s shit or anything remotely like it. I’m putting things into perspective. Whether he can effect a major rebuild and propel this team to former glories very much remain to be seen. A couple of major (i.e. PL and/or CL) titles in the next three years would say yes. Much less would be pretty ho hum.)

What Pep did do is improve even on the players you named, with the exception of Ya Ya. When Pep arrived the talk was whether Raheem would be sold because he wasted so many clear chances but his statistics in this area and most others improved beyond recognition and by 2018 he was considered world class by nearly all apart from Glen Hoddle. Sergio's work rate was a problem in Pep's early days and Pep made no secret of the fact that he believed Sergio would be even better if he were active in more areas of the pitch. Sergio responded well and Pep was proved right. Fernandinho has always been excellent in the role Pep wants from him but he has been even more effective because, like the others, he had energetic players with him to ease the load. So, of course those players were vital cogs (with the possible exception of Ya Ya) but vital cogs in a team which achieved far more than any other team had. Of course, you don't rebuild a team by replacing all eleven players especially when there's no need - but you do replace those who have had their day or want to go, and that's what Pep did and is doing.

The point you make about "inferior replacements" may turn out to be true or it may not. My own opinion is that you can't replace any of the players you mention and it's a waste of time trying. What has to happen is that the role has to adapt to the new players. Phil is not a replacement for David Silva but he may prove as effective. Dias is not another Kompany but he and Laporte may form a partnership as effective but different. Torres is Spain's brightest prospect ... and if you read Guillem Balague the other day at least one "world class" player would not come last summer because City could not guarantee Pep would still be here next season; that's changed and Pep should be a real magnet. Then there's the academy. We are in the middle of rebuilding, perhaps better called refreshing.

 

[paddyblue]

I'm married to one of them so I hear you brother... She sees her arse if I ever dare to criticise them and her family are even worse... Funny as we never talked about football at all when I met her 30 years ago, it seemed to come on suddenly yet it's always my fault when we disagree

There was a piece on the local BBC news the other night about the record for home wins... I only asked her, is there a trophy for that and will they wear a new badge on the shirts and she lost it :-D

I pissed myself laughing there. Really feel ya great. Great wind up by the way

 

[sir baconface]

What Pep did do is improve even on the players you named, with the exception of Ya Ya. When Pep arrived the talk was whether Raheem would be sold because he wasted so many clear chances but his statistics in this area and most others improved beyond recognition and by 2018 he was considered world class by nearly all apart from Glen Hoddle. Sergio's work rate was a problem in Pep's early days and Pep made no secret of the fact that he believed Sergio would be even better if he were active in more areas of the pitch. Sergio responded well and Pep was proved right. Fernandinho has always been excellent in the role Pep wants from him but he has been even more effective because, like the others, he had energetic players with him to ease the load. So, of course those players were vital cogs (with the possible exception of Ya Ya) but vital cogs in a team which achieved far more than any other team had. Of course, you don't rebuild a team by replacing all eleven players especially when there's no need - but you do replace those who have had their day or want to go, and that's what Pep did and is doing.

The point you make about "inferior replacements" may turn out to be true or it may not. My own opinion is that you can't replace any of the players you mention and it's a waste of time trying. What has to happen is that the role has to adapt to the new players. Phil is not a replacement for David Silva but he may prove as effective. Dias is not another Kompany but he and Laporte may form a partnership as effective but different. Torres is Spain's brightest prospect ... and if you read Guillem Balague the other day at least one "world class" player would not come last summer because City could not guarantee Pep would still be here next season; that's changed and Pep should be a real magnet. Then there's the academy. We are in the middle of rebuilding, perhaps better called refreshing.

Thanks for replying. We probably aren’t actually a million miles part. While I believe Pep inherited a good squad with a brilliant spine, I’d be the first to agree he wove magic with them. However, I’m less sanguine than you that he will repeat the feat with us.

Two reasons for that. First, today’s squad in their present condition is not as strong as two years ago. Crucially, we seem to have fewer battlers. Second, styles and tactics have moved on but Pep has yet to show he can adapt. For all Pep achieved, Klopp‘s now the man in pole position. Meanwhile, lesser mortals have learned how to beat us.

I was 50/50 on him extending but hoped last week’s decision marked a psychological turning point. The Spurs show brought me (and plenty of others) down to Earth with a bump.

Whether he turns it round or not, we still have a very decent squad with potential. Let’s see how the season progresses.

 

[StillBluessinceHydeRoad]

Thanks for replying. We probably aren’t actually a million miles part. While I believe Pep inherited a good squad with a brilliant spine, I’d be the first to agree he wove magic with them. However, I’m less sanguine than you that he will repeat the feat with us.

Two reasons for that. First, today’s squad in their present condition is not as strong as two years ago. Crucially, we seem to have fewer battlers. Second, styles and tactics have moved on but Pep has yet to show he can adapt. For all Pep achieved, Klopp‘s now the man in pole position. Meanwhile, lesser mortals have learned how to beat us.

I was 50/50 on him extending but hoped last week’s decision marked a psychological turning point. The Spurs show brought me (and plenty of others) down to Earth with a bump.

Whether he turns it round or not, we still have a very decent squad with potential. Let’s see how the season progresses.

I certainly don't think we're very far apart though I would amend your second sentence to say that Pep inherited a core of superb players who were at the centre of a squad built by Roberto and largely left to age. Pep did add to it to create a framework within which that core could thrive as it reached career's end. It has been one hell of a final bow for Zaba, Ya Ya, Vinnie and David and it's time for others to take the club on. I think Pep will do this but it might take a season or two and here are my reasons.

Firstly I don't think the process of refreshing the squad is anywhere near complete and it isn't realistic to expect him to complete it in one season again. We may well be surprised at who comes in in the transfer windows ahead, especially now Pep has renewed, but even more so at who leaves. The strength of the squad is an open question but it took time for the side to gel in 2010-1 and we can all remember the criticisms of the players brought in by Mancini - and how a lot of City fans fell for them. I think also that this is an exceptional season and I don't think we can play down the importance of the length of last season for City, the brevity of the close season, the absence of any pre season, the consequent injuries and the lack of any real time for training because of 3 matches every 7 days while trying to integrate new players, at least one in a very sensitive position (who arrived after the start of the season.

It is the point about styles and tactics which intrigues me. I don't believe styles and tactics have moved on at least since the change in the offside rule in 1925. They have been tweaked as a result of the regulations governing passes back to the 'keeper but basically there are two approaches; those who prefer to play with the ball and those who prefer to play without! It was the great Herbert Chapman who laid down the principle that the threat to you increased with the time you spent in possession, and, therefore, you defended in numbers and counter attacked quickly when in possession. Mourinho also believes being in possession is dangerous and advocates the counter. Klopp is something of a hybrid: in many ways he is a typical German counter attacker who wants to win the ball high up, but he playes a high defensive line to make the press effective. But his press is typical of the English "hustle and harry" of the 70s and 80s more than anything. I don't think he is a master tactician because we see nothing of the tactical variety within games that typifies Pep's teams and his midfield is hard working but limited but he does have 3 forwards capable of winning the ball and using it. Pep belongs to he "possession" school of football which takes the view that you can't win without the ball and so your chances of winning increase the longer you have the ball and he longer you have it in your opponents' final third. Again the press is vital, but I think it is a more thoughtful, smothering press than Klopp's "up and at 'em", passing should be one/two touch and zippy, movement purposeful and so on. Neither of these approaches is per se effective; managers from both schools have won trophies and will continue to do so. But you do need high quality players whose skill set is suited to your approach and who understand how to play it. It took Klopp 5 years to get it right at Liverpool and Pep is now doing it for a second time in 4 years. My money is on him to pull it off big style, especially with the backing he'll get from the club. So for me the loss to Spurs was disappointing but no more: teams haven't learned how to beat us (there's never been any secret about that!) but sometimes some teams are good enough to do it if we're not at our best.

Sorry for the epic but it's an interesting discussion.

 

[sir baconface]

I certainly don't think we're very far apart though I would amend your second sentence to say that Pep inherited a core of superb players who were at the centre of a squad built by Roberto and largely left to age. Pep did add to it to create a framework within which that core could thrive as it reached career's end. It has been one hell of a final bow for Zaba, Ya Ya, Vinnie and David and it's time for others to take the club on. I think Pep will do this but it might take a season or two and here are my reasons.

Firstly I don't think the process of refreshing the squad is anywhere near complete and it isn't realistic to expect him to complete it in one season again. We may well be surprised at who comes in in the transfer windows ahead, especially now Pep has renewed, but even more so at who leaves. The strength of the squad is an open question but it took time for the side to gel in 2010-1 and we can all remember the criticisms of the players brought in by Mancini - and how a lot of City fans fell for them. I think also that this is an exceptional season and I don't think we can play down the importance of the length of last season for City, the brevity of the close season, the absence of any pre season, the consequent injuries and the lack of any real time for training because of 3 matches every 7 days while trying to integrate new players, at least one in a very sensitive position (who arrived after the start of the season.

It is the point about styles and tactics which intrigues me. I don't believe styles and tactics have moved on at least since the change in the offside rule in 1925. They have been tweaked as a result of the regulations governing passes back to the 'keeper but basically there are two approaches; those who prefer to play with the ball and those who prefer to play without! It was the great Herbert Chapman who laid down the principle that the threat to you increased with the time you spent in possession, and, therefore, you defended in numbers and counter attacked quickly when in possession. Mourinho also believes being in possession is dangerous and advocates the counter. Klopp is something of a hybrid: in many ways he is a typical German counter attacker who wants to win the ball high up, but he playes a high defensive line to make the press effective. But his press is typical of the English "hustle and harry" of the 70s and 80s more than anything. I don't think he is a master tactician because we see nothing of the tactical variety within games that typifies Pep's teams and his midfield is hard working but limited but he does have 3 forwards capable of winning the ball and using it. Pep belongs to he "possession" school of football which takes the view that you can't win without the ball and so your chances of winning increase the longer you have the ball and he longer you have it in your opponents' final third. Again the press is vital, but I think it is a more thoughtful, smothering press than Klopp's "up and at 'em", passing should be one/two touch and zippy, movement purposeful and so on. Neither of these approaches is per se effective; managers from both schools have won trophies and will continue to do so. But you do need high quality players whose skill set is suited to your approach and who understand how to play it. It took Klopp 5 years to get it right at Liverpool and Pep is now doing it for a second time in 4 years. My money is on him to pull it off big style, especially with the backing he'll get from the club. So for me the loss to Spurs was disappointing but no more: teams haven't learned how to beat us (there's never been any secret about that!) but sometimes some teams are good enough to do it if we're not at our best.

Sorry for the epic but it's an interesting discussion.

No need to apologise. It’s been a good chat.

I think what I meant is that the killer tactics of the day have somewhat shifted away from possession towards greater speed and directness.

You underrate Klopp IMO. The ultimate requirements of a manager are to beat everyone else and to use resources to best effect. Entertainment is important too, although considered optional by some managers. Pep wins v Klopp on style and sophistication but he consumes resources at an eye-watering rate. And at present - hopefully temporary - he’s lost the players’ motivation to press like demons. Consequently the dippers look much more energetic and - contrary to some expectations - haven’t collapsed on the loss of key players to injury.

It’s a dynamic situation, of course. The league is far from lost if we can rally. But it may require more of a hybrid approach as we adapt to losing our legends.

 

[HarrytheBlue]

I would Pep will be thinking this bad spell has lasted far too long and that's all that matters.

We are under performing with the talent we have available, in your eyes that may be acceptable, to me it's not.

Exceptional factors - the main one being much less time between seasons for our players to relax recharge the batteries and hit the ground running. We're running on empty.