The Scottish Politics thread

[Coatigan]

The result of the politics of division.

That indeed is true.

Way too much amplifying going on.

 

[Coatigan]

I don't understand how a Manchester City supporting Scot can think there's such a huge cultural divide between the two nations.

I really like this post/response on a number of levels.

Not in any way trying to be facetious, and giving younmy genuine thoughts on it. In short, simply, Brexit.

Not so much the act itself, of leaving the EU, but what it seems to represent, to most of who voted for it.

And obviously to an extent, indyref, although that for me has and should have been dealt with (had it not then been for brexit).

You often talk about parallels between Indyref and Brexit, yet nobody wants to admit the sheer nationalism behind Brexit that they claim they so dislike. The two will continue to pull in both directions and more and more moderates will find themselves with little choice left but to go with one they can stomach slightly more. And the way the polls are going, in the brexit aftermath, suggests a lot more people feel that way.

 

[Saddleworth2]

Good points. Regarding the pound, I'm no fiscal expert, but would the BOE
be happy supporting a foreign nation?
There was no statement on Barnett, that was my take on the points mentioned, ie; their tax take covers welfare and public spending, (if I heard it correctly). So if Scotland rakes in enough now, why is support needed?

So I will try and answer this to the best of my knowledge. I am taking this from 16/17 GERS which the report refers to. The amount of expenditure allocated to Scotland falls into two categories. 1) devolved spend (for example education) and 2) an amount that is allocated by the UK Government per capita to Scotland (for example welfare benefits). 3) capital

There is a sum, where if you simply take the total spent by the devolved government + the amount allocated for social security and welfare payments allocated by the UK government as 'Scotlands share' then it is covered by Scotland tax revenue. TBF its a statement that is designed to make the reader feel good and thats all.

That simple statement doesn't address the other expenditure allocated to it by the Westminster Government like Defence, Debt Interest, Central costs etc etc. (it is covered in other parts of the report) now whilst some of that would be a target for cost reduction following independence, by no means could it be wiped out entirely.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[Saddleworth2]

I really like this post/response on a number of levels.

Not in any way trying to be facetious, and giving younmy genuine thoughts on it. In short, simply, Brexit.

Not so much the act itself, of leaving the EU, but what it seems to represent, to most of who voted for it.

And obviously to an extent, indyref, although that for me has and should have been dealt with (had it not then been for brexit).

You often talk about parallels between Indyref and Brexit, yet nobody wants to admit the sheer nationalism behind Brexit that they claim they so dislike. The two will continue to pull in both directions and more and more moderates will find themselves with little choice left but to go with one they can stomach slightly more. And the way the polls are going, in the brexit aftermath, suggests a lot more people feel that way.

Its a funny way to display nationalism when the first thing you want to do when you become independent is to rejoin the EU ;-)

 

[Saddleworth2]

An extract from Sturgeons speech to SNP conference.
maybe for those that think she is Farage in a skirt could just take a little time to recognise the humanity and decency in her words that make her popular in Scotland.


‘Recently, I came across a photo taken just after my speech to conference last autumn.The auditorium was packed and the photo shows me hugging an elderly lady at the side of the stage.

When I look at it now – normal human connection in the midst of a crowded event – it’s like viewing a different world. A bygone age.

That’s the cruelty of Covid.
It has turned those cherished connections between people and countries into our biggest vulnerability.Borders have been closed, travel restricted, and we’ve been forced to live most of this year apart from our nearest and dearest.

This has been, and still is, the toughest of times.

The challenges we’ve faced, and the sacrifices we’ve all been asked to make, would have been unthinkable this time last year.

If you feel utterly exhausted by it all, believe me, you’re not alone.
Politicians usually run a mile from admitting human frailty.
But these aren’t normal times.

I don’t mind saying that these last 9 months have been the hardest of my life.

I’ve had many dark days and sleepless nights, struggling with the horrendous choices the pandemic has forced upon us.

At times I’ve felt completely overwhelmed – as I’m sure many of you have. And I feel a deep sadness for the lives that have been lost.

Not a single day passes that I don’t think of families who are grieving.

Like governments everywhere, ours has had to wrestle with almost impossible decisions. Every action necessary to reduce the harm of the virus and save lives, puts jobs and businesses on the line and causes suffering in so many other ways.

But without those necessary measures, more lives will be lost.

I’ve done my best to get these decisions as right as I can. And I’ve had the support of an outstanding team of ministers and advisers.

I can never thank them enough.
But I know we’ve made mistakes.
And the responsibility for that is mine and mine alone.

I feel it deeply, and I always will.

 

[Fame Monster]

Which assumptions or rationale did you find unconvincing?

Between page 1 and the final page :)

Obviously, I haven't read it but I know enough about it from second-hand sources plus what Sturgeon and co have said to seriously worry about the sense of it.

People talk about all this investment that North Britain could attract above with regard to wind power, who on earth in their right mind would invest in a country with a new currency, a huge deficit, no recent history of financial prudence, no currency reserves? It just wouldn't happen. Investors would look at the currency with the same regard as chocolate money plus they'd have no credit rating so they'd have to pay a shitload more to borrow money from the market if they wanted to finance the investment themselves and it would just be an absolute disaster. Totally unworkable without a really, really tough period of about 20 years of financial austerity that'll make the Thatcher years look like a family holiday.

I disagree with the SDL about the separatism issue but I can let that pass but I think they have a very strong moral duty to at least be honest with the people of NB about the financial implications.

 

[Saddleworth2]

Between page 1 and the final page :)

Obviously, I haven't read it but I know enough about it from second-hand sources plus what Sturgeon and co have said to seriously worry about the sense of it.

People talk about all this investment that North Britain could attract above with regard to wind power, who on earth in their right mind would invest in a country with a new currency, a huge deficit, no recent history of financial prudence, no currency reserves? It just wouldn't happen. Investors would look at the currency with the same regard as chocolate money plus they'd have no credit rating so they'd have to pay a shitload more to borrow money from the market if they wanted to finance the investment themselves and it would just be an absolute disaster. Totally unworkable without a really, really tough period of about 20 years of financial austerity that'll make the Thatcher years look like a family holiday.

I disagree with the SDL about the separatism issue but I can let that pass but I think they have a very strong moral duty to at least be honest with the people of NB about the financial implications.

Why would you not read it if you are interested in the subject? So you reach all that conclusion based on ignorance of its contents. Forgive me if I disregard your comments on Scottish independence in future. I prefer to debate with folks that have a reasonably open mind and actually do some reading and thinking about the subject they profess to have strong views about. No offence intended mate as you are far from unique on this thread. Have a nice evening.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Between page 1 and the final page :)

Obviously, I haven't read it but I know enough about it from second-hand sources plus what Sturgeon and co have said to seriously worry about the sense of it.

People talk about all this investment that North Britain could attract above with regard to wind power, who on earth in their right mind would invest in a country with a new currency, a huge deficit, no recent history of financial prudence, no currency reserves? It just wouldn't happen. Investors would look at the currency with the same regard as chocolate money plus they'd have no credit rating so they'd have to pay a shitload more to borrow money from the market if they wanted to finance the investment themselves and it would just be an absolute disaster. Totally unworkable without a really, really tough period of about 20 years of financial austerity that'll make the Thatcher years look like a family holiday.

I disagree with the SDL about the separatism issue but I can let that pass but I think they have a very strong moral duty to at least be honest with the people of NB about the financial implications.

All those concerns and more could be addressed by fast tracked EU membership and adoption of the Euro. Put simply, behind the SNP bluster the plan is actually become an EU dependent and net benefactor.

 

[Fame Monster]

Why would you not read it if you are interested in the subject? So you reach all that conclusion based on ignorance of its contents. Forgive me if I disregard your comments on Scottish independence in future. I prefer to debate with folks that have a reasonably open mind and actually do some reading and thinking about the subject they profess to have strong views about. No offence intended mate as you are far from unique on this thread. Have a nice evening.

I actually clicked on the summary yesterday. The summary itself was about 150 pages! I don't think you're going to have much of a debate with anyone on this subject apart from a few civil servants and SDL hardliners if that's your criteria :)

 

[Fame Monster]

All those concerns and more could be addressed by fast tracked EU membership and adoption of the Euro. Put simply, behind the SNP bluster the plan is actually become an EU dependent and net benefactor.

I can't imagine the Eurozone wanting to fast-track membership for a country with a consistently higher budget deficit than Greece had in the run-up to the 2008 crash. And if they do decide to adopt the EUR, the Eurozone's spending rules are a hell of a lot stricter than the UK's.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

I can't imagine the Eurozone wanting to fast-track membership for a country with a consistently higher budget deficit than Greece had in the run-up to the 2008 crash. And if they do decide to adopt the EUR, the Eurozone's spending rules are a hell of a lot stricter than the UK's.

Normally I'd agree, but during the last four years the EU have taken great pleasure in exploiting any perceived cracks in the UK union. if this is the case beyond Jan then I can see them making a special case for an indy Scotland - especially if brexit does result in the much predicted apocalypse, in which case instant EU membership may be enough to get the SNP over the line in another indy ref. I don't see this as likely, but certainly possible.

 

[Saddleworth2]

I actually clicked on the summary yesterday. The summary itself was about 150 pages! I don't think you're going to have much of a debate with anyone on this subject apart from a few civil servants and SDL hardliners if that's your criteria :)

Why bother talk about a new currency when the detail of what is proposed is in the report (and it ain’t that). Not getting at you mate, and You are right, though many claim to have read it they then prove they haven’t by some of the stuff they post. It’s really not that difficult a read and it is divided into three or four main subject areas. Not everyone has the time, but if you have.....

Having read it, you may not change your views but hopefully you will come at it with more knowledge.

 

[Fame Monster]

Why bother talk about a new currency when the detail of what is proposed is in the report (and it ain’t that). Not getting at you mate, and You are right, though many claim to have read it they then prove they haven’t by some of the stuff they post. It’s really not that difficult a read and it is divided into three or four main subject areas. Not everyone has the time, but if you have.....

Having read it, you may not change your views but hopefully you will come at it with more knowledge.

NB are proposing a new currency though, after a short transition period of using the GBP.

 

[Saddleworth2]

NB are proposing a new currency though, after a short transition period of using the GBP.

yes. The findings of the report on currency weren’t accepted by the party despite sturgeons support. What was adopted though were 6 economic tests before any transition (that was included in the report) Which to all intents and purposes means it would be the pound until there was clarity re EU membership/EUro. The main one if the tests is getting the deficit to a pre determined % of gdp. That will take a while :-)

 

[Ban-jani]

An extract from Sturgeons speech to SNP conference.
maybe for those that think she is Farage in a skirt could just take a little time to recognise the humanity and decency in her words that make her popular in Scotland.


‘Recently, I came across a photo taken just after my speech to conference last autumn.The auditorium was packed and the photo shows me hugging an elderly lady at the side of the stage.

When I look at it now – normal human connection in the midst of a crowded event – it’s like viewing a different world. A bygone age.

That’s the cruelty of Covid.
It has turned those cherished connections between people and countries into our biggest vulnerability.Borders have been closed, travel restricted, and we’ve been forced to live most of this year apart from our nearest and dearest.

This has been, and still is, the toughest of times.

The challenges we’ve faced, and the sacrifices we’ve all been asked to make, would have been unthinkable this time last year.

If you feel utterly exhausted by it all, believe me, you’re not alone.
Politicians usually run a mile from admitting human frailty.
But these aren’t normal times.

I don’t mind saying that these last 9 months have been the hardest of my life.

I’ve had many dark days and sleepless nights, struggling with the horrendous choices the pandemic has forced upon us.

At times I’ve felt completely overwhelmed – as I’m sure many of you have. And I feel a deep sadness for the lives that have been lost.

Not a single day passes that I don’t think of families who are grieving.

Like governments everywhere, ours has had to wrestle with almost impossible decisions. Every action necessary to reduce the harm of the virus and save lives, puts jobs and businesses on the line and causes suffering in so many other ways.

But without those necessary measures, more lives will be lost.

I’ve done my best to get these decisions as right as I can. And I’ve had the support of an outstanding team of ministers and advisers.

I can never thank them enough.
But I know we’ve made mistakes.
And the responsibility for that is mine and mine alone.

I feel it deeply, and I always will.

The reason she’s similar to Farage is that her political identity is hinged on this one issue referendum, and her tactic is to play to emotions (briefing on St Andrew’s day prime example), exactly like Farage, whilst leaving out key specific details, mostly with just a general “it’ll be alright”

People can’t grasp the deeper political person she is and what she’s doing, which is comparable to Farage but with different details attached to it.

Those on here, whilst saying they’re not outright supporters of independence but have sympathies, are missing is, you sound exactly like the very Brexit supporters you criticise.

There’s plenty of key facts that are critical to this whole thing and nobody on the Yes side wants to get down to the detail. England and Scotland will have absolutely no choice but to enact a hard border, similar to the NI issue, in the event of Scotland leaving. The difference is this time no Good Friday Customs Agreement, keeping an entire region in both customs areas, can possibly happen.

The same issue with NI that stopped Brexit happening for four years is an even more difficult scenario if Scotland and England were two separate states.

Sturgeons response is exactly the same as some Brexiteers, it’s “er well well, we er, we’ll just agree to not have a hard border”. Completely ignoring MFN and the fact that if and it’s a big if, Scotland did manage to join the EU, both the EU and England would be forced to put up infrastructure. Not just goods, infrastructure that stops free movement of people.

If someone is against Brexit but for Independence then they’re entitled to that view point but it’s a hypocritical one.

If someone supports independence and the breaking up of the country and the colossal issues that go with that, purely because they hate Tories, then that’s even more shortsighted.

 

[west didsblue]

The reason she’s similar to Farage is that her political identity is hinged on this one issue referendum, and her tactic is to play to emotions (briefing on St Andrew’s day prime example), exactly like Farage, whilst leaving out key specific details, mostly with just a general “it’ll be alright”

People can’t grasp the deeper political person she is and what she’s doing, which is comparable to Farage but with different details attached to it.

Those on here, whilst saying they’re not outright supporters of independence but have sympathies, are missing is, you sound exactly like the very Brexit supporters you criticise.

There’s plenty of key facts that are critical to this whole thing and nobody on the Yes side wants to get down to the detail. England and Scotland will have absolutely no choice but to enact a hard border, similar to the NI issue, in the event of Scotland leaving. The difference is this time no Good Friday Customs Agreement, keeping an entire region in both customs areas, can possibly happen.

The same issue with NI that stopped Brexit happening for four years is an even more difficult scenario if Scotland and England were two separate states.

Sturgeons response is exactly the same as some Brexiteers, it’s “er well well, we er, we’ll just agree to not have a hard border”. Completely ignoring MFN and the fact that if and it’s a big if, Scotland did manage to join the EU, both the EU and England would be forced to put up infrastructure. Not just goods, infrastructure that stops free movement of people.

If someone is against Brexit but for Independence then they’re entitled to that view point but it’s a hypocritical one.

If someone supports independence and the breaking up of the country and the colossal issues that go with that, purely because they hate Tories, then that’s even more shortsighted.

I’m against Brexit and against Scottish independence. I just happen to think that Brexit has triggered the eventual break up of the UK due to many of its supporters’ underlying English nationalism and dismissal of the concerns of, and apparent disdain for, the nations that voted against it.

 

[squirtyflower]

I’m against Brexit and against Scottish independence. I just happen to think that Brexit has triggered the eventual break up of the UK due to many of its supporters’ underlying English nationalism and dismissal of the concerns of, and apparent disdain for, the nations that voted against it.

Aaaah
Perhaps those poor dismissed and disdained citizens of those nations should have been given two votes each?

 

[Vic]

The reason she’s similar to Farage is that her political identity is hinged on this one issue referendum, and her tactic is to play to emotions (briefing on St Andrew’s day prime example), exactly like Farage, whilst leaving out key specific details, mostly with just a general “it’ll be alright”

People can’t grasp the deeper political person she is and what she’s doing, which is comparable to Farage but with different details attached to it.

Those on here, whilst saying they’re not outright supporters of independence but have sympathies, are missing is, you sound exactly like the very Brexit supporters you criticise.

There’s plenty of key facts that are critical to this whole thing and nobody on the Yes side wants to get down to the detail. England and Scotland will have absolutely no choice but to enact a hard border, similar to the NI issue, in the event of Scotland leaving. The difference is this time no Good Friday Customs Agreement, keeping an entire region in both customs areas, can possibly happen.

The same issue with NI that stopped Brexit happening for four years is an even more difficult scenario if Scotland and England were two separate states.

Sturgeons response is exactly the same as some Brexiteers, it’s “er well well, we er, we’ll just agree to not have a hard border”. Completely ignoring MFN and the fact that if and it’s a big if, Scotland did manage to join the EU, both the EU and England would be forced to put up infrastructure. Not just goods, infrastructure that stops free movement of people.

If someone is against Brexit but for Independence then they’re entitled to that view point but it’s a hypocritical one.

If someone supports independence and the breaking up of the country and the colossal issues that go with that, purely because they hate Tories, then that’s even more shortsighted.

Project Fear. England will still be in a free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border.

Well, it worked last time.

 

[Coatigan]

The reason she’s similar to Farage is that her political identity is hinged on this one issue referendum, and her tactic is to play to emotions (briefing on St Andrew’s day prime example), exactly like Farage, whilst leaving out key specific details, mostly with just a general “it’ll be alright”

People can’t grasp the deeper political person she is and what she’s doing, which is comparable to Farage but with different details attached to it.

Those on here, whilst saying they’re not outright supporters of independence but have sympathies, are missing is, you sound exactly like the very Brexit supporters you criticise.

There’s plenty of key facts that are critical to this whole thing and nobody on the Yes side wants to get down to the detail. England and Scotland will have absolutely no choice but to enact a hard border, similar to the NI issue, in the event of Scotland leaving. The difference is this time no Good Friday Customs Agreement, keeping an entire region in both customs areas, can possibly happen.

The same issue with NI that stopped Brexit happening for four years is an even more difficult scenario if Scotland and England were two separate states.

Sturgeons response is exactly the same as some Brexiteers, it’s “er well well, we er, we’ll just agree to not have a hard border”. Completely ignoring MFN and the fact that if and it’s a big if, Scotland did manage to join the EU, both the EU and England would be forced to put up infrastructure. Not just goods, infrastructure that stops free movement of people.

If someone is against Brexit but for Independence then they’re entitled to that view point but it’s a hypocritical one.

If someone supports independence and the breaking up of the country and the colossal issues that go with that, purely because they hate Tories, then that’s even more shortsighted.

By that same logic, then everyone who voted Brexit should absolutely be supportive of Scottish independence? This resentment towards Scotland then is highly misplaced and those that accept brexit should at the very least 'get' scexit?

 

[Coatigan]

I’m against Brexit and against Scottish independence. I just happen to think that Brexit has triggered the eventual break up of the UK due to many of its supporters’ underlying English nationalism and dismissal of the concerns of, and apparent disdain for, the nations that voted against it.

^