Political relations between UK-EU

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Ban-jani said:
I understand the process of applying to become a member of the EU.

But my point was specifically regarding how the EU behaves to immigration. It behaves as one large state, which allows internal free movement but not external.

In fact, it now behaves no differently to immigration than its neighbouring union, the United Kingdom.

Only difference being, the United Kingdom has been one states for far longer, with a much smaller population and its political and cultural ties are far more closely linked.

The criticism I have with the EU is they’ve tried to implement it as one state, on a too large a scale, with geopolitical issues and economic disparity.

However, the EU completely agrees with me on freedom of movement coming from outside the union. If freedom of movement was such a great idea, they would have extended it to somewhere else, outside of the union, whereas in reality they’ve seen the issues it has caused internally on such a large scale and know it’s a bad policy to extend it elsewhere.
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External immigration is in the power of individual nations and they are not inclined to extend that power to the EU. There is EU competence on tourist travel in the Schengen area and on refugee issues, but each member state determines its rules for non EU immigrants.

You still seem unable to grasp the basis for freedom of movement. Firstly it is not an immigration issue. FoM is not seen as immigration, anymore than we see a Scotsman moving to England to live or work as immigration.

FoM is an economic issue, it is a condition of having a Single Market which requires the free movement of people. Without joining the Single Market you will not have FoM, it doesn’t exist in isolation. It is a byproduct, not a product in itself. It is a benefit that flows from being in the Single Market.

If Algeria wants to benefit from the Single Market it will then benefit from FoM. It doesn’t happen the other way round. FoM requires a hamonised regulatory market between countries, common rules that allow barriers to reduce etc. It require convergence, which is why it’s a slow process.
 
BobKowalski said:
External immigration is in the power of individual nations and they are not inclined to extend that power to the EU. There is EU competence on tourist travel in the Schengen area and on refugee issues, but each member state determines its rules for non EU immigrants.

You still seem unable to grasp the basis for freedom of movement. Firstly it is not an immigration issue. FoM is not seen as immigration, anymore than we see a Scotsman moving to England to live or work as immigration.

FoM is an economic issue, it is a condition of having a Single Market which requires the free movement of people. Without joining the Single Market you will not have FoM, it doesn’t exist in isolation. It is a byproduct, not a product in itself. It is a benefit that flows from being in the Single Market.

If Algeria wants to benefit from the Single Market it will then benefit from FoM. It doesn’t happen the other way round. FoM requires a hamonised regulatory market between countries, common rules that allow barriers to reduce etc. It require convergence, which is why it’s a slow process.
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I’ve literally just said all of that, that was my point, you’re agreeing with me. They behave like one big state and movement isn’t seen as immigration. That is the issue people like me have with it.

They view external immigration, whether individual countries or not, in the same way we do in the UK now, ie they don’t allow free movement, you may need points or a certain type of visa and it’s usually based on how much money you earn.
 
Ban-jani said:
I knew full well remain voters would be stating how shit it was and leave voters saying how good it is, when in reality it’s a bit “meh”.
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It's not just a Remain v Leave thing. It's more people whose jobs depend on no import/export friction or a single market for services or who want opportunities afforded by more inward investment versus people whose jobs don't need any of those things. The latter group will think it's a bit meh whereas the former group will either be worse off or will look to emigrate.
 
Ban-jani said:
We’ve not given NI away, they’re temporarily in both customs unions but governed politically by the UK.
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NI is in the EU Single Market for goods. It is no longer legally in the EU customs union, but it is within the border of it. This is why there is a EU/GB border in the Irish Sea. It’s a grey zone for want of a better description.

It will be in the EU Single Market until the citizens of NI say otherwise, which is likely to be permanently, but never say never and all that.
 
west didsblue said:
It's not just a Remain v Leave thing. It's more people whose jobs depend on no import/export friction or a single market for services or who want opportunities afforded by more inward investment versus people whose jobs don't need any of those things. The latter group will think it's a bit meh whereas the former group will either be worse off or will look to emigrate.
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Or in the case of farmers (particularly) take their own lives.
 
BobKowalski said:
NI is in the EU Single Market for goods. It is no longer legally in the EU customs union, but it is within the border of it. This is why there is a EU/GB border in the Irish Sea. It’s a grey zone for want of a better description.

It will be in the EU Single Market until the citizens of NI say otherwise, which is likely to be permanently, but never say never and all that.
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I know all this Bob
 
mcfc1632 said:
.............and I am sure that the existing members are looking forward positively to the 'investment opportunity' (aka burden) that membership for Albania, Bosnia and others will enforce upon them.
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I asked @BobKowalski the question as even the most un-political City fan would be aware of the annexation of parts of the Ukraine by the left-wing dictator of Russia trampling over the citizens of an elected government.
I went to Kiev to see City play Dinamo in 2015 with Bill. And then we had three games against Shakthar Donetsk which had to be moved to Kharkiv due to the communists ruling the strip of land Donetsk was in.
I can’t believe anyone couldn’t remember that and the highly unlikely acquiescence of the dictator to allow closer European ties.
 
squirtyflower said:
I asked @BobKowalski the question as even the most un-political City fan would be aware of the annexation of parts of the Ukraine by the left-wing dictator of Russia trampling over the citizens of an elected government.
I went to Kiev to see City play Dinamo in 2015 with Bill. And then we had three games against Shakthar Donetsk which had to be moved to Kharkiv due to the communists ruling the strip of land Donetsk was in.
I can’t believe anyone couldn’t remember that and the highly unlikely acquiescence of the dictator to allow closer European ties.
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You think Putin’s left wing??
 
Ban-jani said:
I know all this Bob
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With respect you said, Customs Union, not Single Market, and ‘temporary’ when it’s permanent unless the people of NI say otherwise.

That the EU and Dublin will want to make this arrangement for NI work, means they will try to make the whole deal work, which is in itself good news.
 
Ban-jani said:
I don’t think either of those things will happen.

I don’t think there’s been significant enough disruption, I know it’s very early but it’s not being reported as going to happen, to affect the vast majority on a day to day basis.

Things will just carry on for most people and whilst it won’t be a big success, it’s not going to make a dent to a lot of people.
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I have not made particular effort to check - but I have not heard anything on the news about the apocalypse having been spotted on the horizon - or specifically massive queues throughout Kent

This is why I was pointing out earlier that Starmer will be careful to understand the impacts before taking a position.

If the apocalypse remains stubborn and there is not a daily outcry of people being able to point to the massive disruptions and personal plights - then I can not see Starmer making any noises about closer alignment with the EU as part of his manifestos.

Should the apocalypse continue to hang back, at least we will be able to look forward to the discussion moving on and people looking to the future and - who knows - we may find people coming onto the thread to accept that a) they had perhaps overstated the dramas and b) commit to looking to the (post Brexit) future
 
Vic said:
If the bit about clairvoyants was meant to suggest it wasn't in anyone's minds as a Brexit issue (it wasn't clair) then Farage was banging on in 2015 about imagined immigrant no-go areas in European cities.
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No, just saying that saying something said by Trump / Farage in 2017 which is what the article referenced didn't influence the 2016 vote.
In 2015 Farage was asked about no go areas for non Muslims in France (by good old Fox News) after the Charlie Hebdo shootings, he then extended that to "major European cities" and then proceeded to have a good rant about the UK too. He complained about immigrants to the UK from Pakistan in the same breath, so not really relevant to FOM or Brexit, just generally pretty anti Muslim.
 
BobKowalski said:
With respect you said, Customs Union, not Single Market, and ‘temporary’ when it’s permanent unless the people of NI say otherwise.

That the EU and Dublin will want to make this arrangement for NI work, means they will try to make the whole deal work, which is in itself good news.
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You knew what I meant by CU’s.

And I have said several times on this thread the decision to leave will be ratified by the NI parliament.
 
Ban-jani said:
I knew full well remain voters would be stating how shit it was and leave voters saying how good it is, when in reality it’s a bit “meh”.
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Meh = fine by me - as good as could possibly be expected immediately after leaving

It will be in the future that the benefits of not being in the EU will become obvious
 
Bloomberg is a ray of fucking sunshine today...

’Aquis Exchange Plc, London’s second-biggest venue for trading European shares, has seen almost all of this business shift into the European Union on the first trading day since Brexit.

Chief Executive Officer Alasdair Haynes told Bloomberg TV on Monday that 99.6% of its European share trading moved to its parallel venue in Paris.

“Europe has clearly won the battle for its own share trading,” he said. The shift “is a spectacular own goal as Britain is now losing its very strong position in trading of European equities in London,” he said.‘
 
BobKowalski said:
That external tariff reduction going well...

‘Supply Lines: Britain's first post-Brexit bananas arrive from Ghana ... with a $24,000 tariff surcharge attached’ @Bloomberg
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I do believe the government might have made it harder to find our new global tariffs...

So I can't check, but is this because Ghana was one of the developing countries that could export to the EU with zero tariffs and we haven't rolled that over?
 
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