Political relations between UK-EU

[bluethrunthru]

all the knuckle chewing and crocodile tears about the environment - just to examples of Brexit damage to the environment

 

[BobKowalski]

In sovereignty news latest, the UK Govt is writing to the EU to ask its permission to implement proposals on trade between nations in our own Union.

‘Taking back control!’ - this offer is subject to terms and conditions of the agreement and the consent of the European Union. Breaking this warranty may result in tariffs.

‘Michael Gove to write to Maroš Šefčovič with some specific proposals on the NI Protocol. The meet tomorrow with Stormont’s First & Dep First Ministers. Mr Gove has mentioned export health certificates more than once.’ @BBC

 

[bluethrunthru]

In sovereignty news latest, the UK Govt is writing to the EU to ask its permission to implement proposals on trade between nations in our own Union.

‘Taking back control!’ - this offer is subject to terms and conditions of the agreement and the consent of the European Union. Breaking this warranty may result in tariffs.

‘Michael Gove to write to Maroš Šefčovič with some specific proposals on the NI Protocol. The meet tomorrow with Stormont’s First & Dep First Ministers. Mr Gove has mentioned export health certificates more than once.’ @BBC

lest we forget

 

[journolud]

Some, sure but not everyone. In fact I think he influenced more people to vote for Remain than anything else just because they hated the frog-faced slime.

Yes a soft brexit option was available. DId you back it? Did you campaign for it? Did you fight long and hard to leave the EU with a softer deal?

No, you didn't. I did. I advocated EFTA from before the referendum was cast. But nooobody on remain was prepared to accept that compromise. It was "fuck brexit, remain at all costs". Imagine if remainers had pushed for the EFTA option and managed to convince others too.

It would have been ideal because if Farage announced he was against it, we could call up soundbites and quotes from when he WAS advocating joining EFTA instead. But you didn't want EFTA membership. You do NOW, but too little too late.

You advocated it for sure but did you also campaign and fight long and hard for it?

 

[Metal Biker]

You advocated it for sure but did you also campaign and fight long and hard for it?

Oh my voice was drowned quite early out by the shouts of the Remain FBPE lobbies who said EFTA was 'no compromise at all', but I was always bringing it up; even got called out for bringing it up too many times. I realised a lost cause when I saw one and just let you all go at it, but apparently expressing myself through gifs at the banality of the discussions being had just annoyed you all even more. :)

None of you wanted to listen, you wanted to go loggerheads against "hard brexiteers" for "ruining the country", getting hard PP when it looked like brexit was going to be overturned, all the while I was waiting for the mood from remainers to turn towards EFTA so I could express my advocation. Didn't transpire, too many lunatics.

 

[Shadz69]

too many similar usernames, i have no idea who is saying what

It's hard at times.

 

[Ban-jani]

My point was that prioritising trade deals with countries on the other side of the planet isn't the smartest thing to be doing right now. I thought I was pretty clear in that, but I know you like an argument, so carry on.

Weren’t you arguing with MetalBiker?

So when the EU sets up free trade agreements with nations nowhere near Europe, what’s that then?

I am struggling to see how this could be presented as a negative, from our position right now?

Free trade with Europe and the Pacific isnt a bad place to be is it?

 

[journolud]

Oh my voice was drowned quite early out by the shouts of the Remain FBPE lobbies who said EFTA was 'no compromise at all', but I was always bringing it up; even got called out for bringing it up too many times. I realised a lost cause when I saw one and just let you all go at it, but apparently expressing myself through gifs at the banality of the discussions being had just annoyed you all even more. :)

None of you wanted to listen, you wanted to go loggerheads against "hard brexiteers" for "ruining the country", getting hard PP when it looked like brexit was going to be overturned, all the while I was waiting for the mood from remainers to turn towards EFTA so I could express my advocation. Didn't transpire, too many lunatics.

No I get it that you advocated for it long and hard on here I was just clarifying whether you had actually campaigned for it which is a very different thing.

Anyway, don't get so upset about the gif thing, you have some good ones on the footie threads, I'll remember to give them a like next time.

 

[Ban-jani]

I'll say it again for the hard of thinking. Joining a regional trade bloc isn't the same as having a FTA. Being a member of a bloc is more than just about free trade. It's about harmonising standards, movement of capital and people as well as goods etc. It's not just the EU that does this. Many trade blocs do similar to varying extents.
Joining a regional trade bloc on the other side of the world is just weird.

You’re applying what the EU is to all trade blocs around the world.

Doesn’t the US have one with Mexico that doesn’t equal free movement of people and aligned standards across the board?

Trading freely with other areas of the world isn’t weird, everyone aims to do it.

 

[BobKowalski]

Weren’t you arguing with MetalBiker?

So when the EU sets up free trade agreements with nations nowhere near Europe, what’s that then?

I am struggling to see how this could be presented as a negative, from our position right now?

Free trade with Europe and the Pacific isnt a bad place to be is it?

We don‘t have free trade with Europe. We have trade barriers. You may have noticed them on the news. We don’t even have free trade within our own country. Gove just admitted this in the House and he is writing to the EU to ask permission to try and improve trade in our own country.

 

[Metal Biker]

No I get it that you advocated for it long and hard on here I was just clarifying whether you had actually campaigned for it which is a very different thing.

Anyway, don't get so upset about the gif thing, you have some good ones on the footie threads, I'll remember to give them a like next time.

I did the best I could, spreading EFTA4UK messages to whomever I could reach.

Campaigning doesn't just mean picketing or going door to door. Its not meant in its literal sense, I meant that few if any on here advocated for EFTA membership once the result was made, despite them now saying it should be the organisation the UK should join next (FWIW, I agree that we still should)

I just find it so bizarre that so many 'characters' on here, who advocated to remain after the vote, are now suggesting EFTA is the best compromise. If all remain voters had done that earlier instead of fighting a losing battle to remain, calls for EFTA across the country would have gained more traction, MP's would have picked up on it, Farage would have lost influence (as he was also an EFTA advocate before becoming full brexit) and we'd have left the EU, applied for EFTA, been accepted (Iceland, Liectenstein and Norway were all for us joining. Switzerland were as well but were worried we might dominate the bloc) kept access to the Single Market, but not be tied to the Customs Union, kept all arrangements with the EU, and basically not had to worry about an Article 16 protocol.

It's been quite sobering.

 

[Ban-jani]

We don‘t have free trade with Europe. We have trade barriers. You may have noticed them on the news. We don’t even have free trade within our own country. Gove just admitted this in the House and he is writing to the EU to ask permission to try and improve trade in our own country.

Are the EU wrong to call it a “free trade agreement” then?

 

[BobKowalski]

I rather enjoyed the shrug at the end of the clip :)

We are starting to recognise that some of the issues are a consequence of the choices we made, but by god, it’s slow progress.

 

[journolud]

I did the best I could, spreading EFTA4UK messages to whomever I could reach.

Campaigning doesn't just mean picketing or going door to door. Its not meant in its literal sense, I meant that few if any on here advocated for EFTA membership once the result was made, despite them now saying it should be the organisation the UK should join next (FWIW, I agree that we still should)

I just find it so bizarre that so many 'characters' on here, who advocated to remain after the vote, are now suggesting EFTA is the best compromise. If all remain voters had done that earlier instead of fighting a losing battle to remain, calls for EFTA across the country would have gained more traction, MP's would have picked up on it, Farage would have lost influence (as he was also an EFTA advocate before becoming full brexit) and we'd have left the EU, applied for EFTA, been accepted (Iceland, Liectenstein and Norway were all for us joining. Switzerland were as well but were worried we might dominate the bloc) kept access to the Single Market, but not be tied to the Customs Union, kept all arrangements with the EU, and basically not had to worry about an Article 16 protocol.

It's been quite sobering.

Fair play.

The whole Brexit issue was complex and presented as binary and by the time the actual referendum had taken place decisions were in the hands of those duly elected. You're right it's been very sobering. I'm not going to change my view that Brexit was the wrong choice for the country and that the way it's playing out there are real consequences for real people. Hindsight is wonderful thing and no doubt if we could turn the clock back some of those advocates of remain, that actually had an influence rather than an opinion about the eventual outcome would act differently. If we're turning the clock back though I'd go a bit further than the shenanigans in the house.

 

[Metal Biker]

Fair play.

The whole Brexit issue was complex and presented as binary and by the time the actual referendum had taken place decisions were in the hands of those duly elected. You're right it's been very sobering. I'm not going to change my view that Brexit was the wrong choice for the country and that the way it's playing out there are real consequences for real people. Hindsight is wonderful thing and no doubt if we could turn the clock back some of those advocates of remain, that actually had an influence rather than an opinion about the eventual outcome would act differently. If we're turning the clock back though I'd go a bit further than the shenanigans in the house.

Don't worry, I don't expect any or many of those who voted to remain to change their opinion now, 10 years from now or ever. Nor do I criticise them for holding on to that view. All I hope for is that they now accept that this is the situation and going back to what we had before cannot ever be achievable, so lamenting over it is pointless.

Rejoining now means adopting the Euro, joining the Eurozone, adopting Schengen, in effect becoming a full committed EU member. Its a much harder sell and one I would be 100% against. Its not for me to say that will ever happen or not, but I have seen some who keep talking about how we had the vetos. Yeah, we did, but we don't anymore and won't ever have them again, so I don't see the purpose in referring to them in a discussion about rejoining. In my view all these post-brexit discussions are tiresome.

I stated my case, my reasons and what I wanted to transpire on voting to leave. Only 50% of it did (or has so far). Will a more sensible Government consider EFTA membership in the future? I dunno, but rest assured if they do i'll be advocating to others that we should. I might lose the support of fellow leavers who don't wish to be part of EFTA and that's fine. I've never considered myself a "brexiteer" (in spite of the many accusations to the contrary) I voted to leave the EU in the hope of then joining the EFTA, (a direction I thought Cameron would likely have taken) but as I say, that's mostly because people didn't bother listening.

Its why I smirk at those criticising those of us who welcome our application to Seepy Teepeepee; I'm not against the UK joining trade blocs, just as long as they're not politically motivated.

 

[BobKowalski]

Are the EU wrong to call it a “free trade agreement” then?

They are all called ‘free trade agreements’, but they are not and the deal with the EU definitely isn’t.

They are trade management deals, ie the terms and conditions by which trade is managed between two separate legal and regulatory zones.

Under a hypothetical FTA, Zone A trades widgets with no tariffs to Zone B, but to qualify the widgets must be made out of components manufactured in Zone A and be made to an agreed legal standard.

So the company making the widgets must provide documents that prove all components are made in Zone A to satisfy the FTA terms.

Then you have the legal standard issue. Zone A didn’t want to legally meet the standards of Zone B under the FTA, so the company has to also provide the legal documentation to show the widget meets the legal standard of Zone B. Customs will check all this paperwork and if satisfied clear the widgets to the customer in Zone B. If not satisfied, then the widgets are held until the issue is resolved.

This crudely is what we have now.

Previously, the company in Zone A made widgets and sent them to customers in Zone B. The end.

And this doesn‘t even get into tax and VAT issues that are also new.

 

[Ban-jani]

They are all called ‘free trade agreements’, but they are not and the deal with the EU definitely isn’t.

They are trade management deals, ie the terms and conditions by which trade is managed between two separate legal and regulatory zones.

Under a hypothetical FTA, Zone A trades widgets with no tariffs to Zone B, but to qualify the widgets must be made out of components manufactured in Zone A and be made to an agreed legal standard.

So the company making the widgets must provide documents that prove all components are made in Zone A to satisfy the FTA terms.

Then you have the legal standard issue. Zone A didn’t want to legally meet the standards of Zone B under the FTA, so the company has to also provide the legal documentation to show the widget meets the legal standard of Zone B. Customs will check all this paperwork and if satisfied clear the widgets to the customer in Zone B. If not satisfied, then the widgets are held until the issue is resolved.

This crudely is what we have now.

Previously, the company in Zone A made widgets and sent them to customers in Zone B. The end.

And this doesn‘t even get into tax and VAT issues that are also new.

It’s a free trade agreement, we just don’t adhere to the Four Freedoms, it’s the same as Canada having a FTA with the EU.

Of course there are key differences to leaving the Four Freedoms but having tariff free trade is still free trade, it’s the universal term used and with no tariffs that’s what makes it “free”.

I really do not know why people are getting upset about us potentially entering another free trade area with pacific countries, surely it’s good for the country?

You want global free trade so it’s better than not doing it, at this stage, surely?

 

[west didsblue]

You’re applying what the EU is to all trade blocs around the world.

Doesn’t the US have one with Mexico that doesn’t equal free movement of people and aligned standards across the board?

Trading freely with other areas of the world isn’t weird, everyone aims to do it.

No I'm not. The EU has the most comprehensive arrangements but many other blocs are much more than FTAs, some with aspirations to have political pacts. Have a look at the table half way down and you'll see that some have freedom of movement, shared currencies, customs unions, single markets, defence pacts just like the EU. Many of them are integrating more closely as time goes on along the lines of the EU.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_bloc

 

[Metal Biker]

It’s a free trade agreement, we just don’t adhere to the Four Freedoms, it’s the same as Canada having a FTA with the EU.

Of course there are key differences to leaving the Four Freedoms but having tariff free trade is still free trade, it’s the universal term used and with no tariffs that’s what makes it “free”.

I really do not know why people are getting upset about us potentially entering another free trade area with pacific countries, surely it’s good for the country?

You want global free trade so it’s better than not doing it, at this stage, surely?

The amount of time it takes for trade to cross the Pacific to Canada is longer than the amount of time it takes trade to cross the Atlantic from Canada to the UK. Canada doesn't seem to be put out by it being a member. :)

Lot of British Overseas Territories in the Pacific are cock-a-hoop about the news, especially. We were going to end up trading with the Pacifics eventually. Like you, I don't see why it's being portrayed as something terrible. It's not going to cure all ills being a member, but it's not going to have a negative impact either. Really don't get the outrage.

 

[aguero93:20]

I did the best I could, spreading EFTA4UK messages to whomever I could reach.

Campaigning doesn't just mean picketing or going door to door. Its not meant in its literal sense, I meant that few if any on here advocated for EFTA membership once the result was made, despite them now saying it should be the organisation the UK should join next (FWIW, I agree that we still should)

I just find it so bizarre that so many 'characters' on here, who advocated to remain after the vote, are now suggesting EFTA is the best compromise. If all remain voters had done that earlier instead of fighting a losing battle to remain, calls for EFTA across the country would have gained more traction, MP's would have picked up on it, Farage would have lost influence (as he was also an EFTA advocate before becoming full brexit) and we'd have left the EU, applied for EFTA, been accepted (Iceland, Liectenstein and Norway were all for us joining. Switzerland were as well but were worried we might dominate the bloc) kept access to the Single Market, but not be tied to the Customs Union, kept all arrangements with the EU, and basically not had to worry about an Article 16 protocol.

It's been quite sobering.

Campaigning is going person to person and changing their minds, done it.