Shamima Begum

domalino said:
You know, you're right.

I shouldn't have said she was conned, because actually she was groomed and sex trafficked as a child.

Thats the actual, factual definition of what happened. She was contacted by an older woman online who's job it was to groom new children to join ISIS and after being convinced that what she was doing was right because she was a stupid, gullible child, she was trafficked and raped and married to an adult when she was a 15 year old child.

Thats the factual definition of what happened.
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FFS, no she wasn't. Her and her friends saw this shit online, thought it was cool and made their own arrangements with someone who knew how about how they could be smuggled into Syria where she could live the perfect life she'd already formed in her own head.

She was not groomed, she was not sex trafficked and to suggest so is a complete insult to the innocents who actually were sex trafficked as a result of the hideous regime that she supported and endorsed.
 
Mëtal Bikër said:
FFS, no she wasn't. Her and her friends saw this shit online, thought it was cool and made their own arrangements with someone who knew how about how they could be smuggled into Syria where she could live the perfect life she'd already formed in her own head.

She was not groomed, she was not sex trafficked and to suggest so is a complete insult to the innocents who actually were sex trafficked as a result of the hideous regime that she supported and endorsed.
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Yes she was.

She was a child and was smuggled into another country to be raped and married off underage to ISIS soldiers as a reward.

This isn't even a debate. She was a child. She was groomed by an older woman online. She was smuggled into the country for sex.
 
Mëtal Bikër said:
Ah even better; a blogger and a BBC article are now experts of radicalisation.

If only MI5 would listen to them. I also like this snippet;

"Parsons Green bomber Ahmed Hassan had been enrolled in Prevent, but still went on to carry out his attack"

Whomp whomp.
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No, offering a different view. At least you read them, what did you think of this bit from the "blog"

"Prominent voices such as Maajid Nawaz and Hanif Qadir who condemned the attacks, were themselves once involved in militant Islamist networks. Not only does this show it’s possible to walk away from extremism, it illustrates that former militants can be important in the fight against terrorism."

And why so dismissive of the sources, after all your opinion is only being expressed on a football forum.
 
domalino said:
Yes she was.

She was a child and was smuggled into another country to be raped and married off underage to ISIS soldiers as a reward.

This isn't even a debate. She was a child. She was groomed by an older woman online. She was smuggled into the country for sex.
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I'm at a loss for words.

You honestly believe she is the victim here?
 
journolud said:
No, offering a different view. At least you read them, what did you think of this bit from the "blog"

"Prominent voices such as Maajid Nawaz and Hanif Qadir who condemned the attacks, were themselves once involved in militant Islamist networks. Not only does this show it’s possible to walk away from extremism, it illustrates that former militants can be important in the fight against terrorism."

And why so dismissive of the sources, after all your opinion is only being expressed on a football forum.
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Why are you asking others to explain why they believe she is a security risk? Because the appropriate government and security bodies have analysed and recommended that she is. Your counter is a blogger and a BBC article. Your opposing view is flawed beyond measure.

I also don't remember Nawaz voluntarily going to join the Islamic State, being okay with seeing beheaded innocents, women raped and sold as sex slaves and then once caught showing zero remorse for her actions, being complicit even when given the opportunity to show remorse.

Why is this person so important to you that she be in the UK? Where is the justification for bringing her to the UK to face trial for a crime you and others say she didn't even commit because she was a groomed child who didn't know any better? Your logic is all over the place.
 
Mëtal Bikër said:
I'm at a loss for words.

You honestly believe she is the victim here?
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She absolutely was a victim of child sex trafficking when she was 15.

That doesn't give her a free pass to do whatever for the rest of her life or the rest of her time in ISIS, although it obviously can condition some of it.

The world is not black and white. She was a victim, she might also have committed some heinous crimes that she will have to face the consequences of when tried.
 
Mëtal Bikër said:
Why are you asking others to explain why they believe she is a security risk? Because the appropriate government and security bodies have analysed and recommended that she is. Your counter is a blogger and a BBC article. Your opposing view is flawed beyond measure.

I also don't remember Nawaz voluntarily going to join the Islamic State, being okay with seeing beheaded innocents, women raped and sold as sex slaves and then once caught showing zero remorse for her actions, being complicit even when given the opportunity to show remorse.

Why is this person so important to you that she be in the UK? Where is the justification for bringing her to the UK to face trial for a crime you and others say she didn't even commit because she was a groomed child who didn't know any better? Your logic is all over the place.
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If you say so, you feel very strongly about this but ascribe motivations and meanings to me that I haven't expressed.
 
Mëtal Bikër said:
Jon Venables was 10.

Your point?
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What is your point? That because venables killed someone as a child the age of majority and consent shouldn't exist?

I dont see how Venables is relevant at all to whether a 15 year old can consent to being a sexual reward and married off to an adult.
 
domalino said:
She absolutely was a victim of child sex trafficking when she was 15.

That doesn't give her a free pass to do whatever for the rest of her life or the rest of her time in ISIS, although it obviously can condition some of it.

The world is not black and white. She was a victim, she might also have committed some heinous crimes that she will have to face the consequences of when tried.
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She was not a victim. The victims of the regime she supported and lived happily under (her words) are the victims and they seek justice.

They should receive it and not have people like you blindly ignore her actions by inventing a victimhood status that does not reflect the reality of her situation.
 
domalino said:
What is your point? That because venables killed someone as a child the age of majority and consent shouldn't exist?

I dont see how Venables is relevant at all to whether a 15 year old can consent to being a sexual reward and married off to an adult.
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That age is not a factor when it comes to whether a human being is capable of committing acts of evil. She and her friends supported evil, thought nothing of seeing people tortured, murdered or raped and shows no remorse now. Who consents to being murdered!?

Yours is a fundamentally naive position.
 
journolud said:
If you say so, you feel very strongly about this but ascribe motivations and meanings to me that I haven't expressed.
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I feel strongly about seeing her brought to justice for the sake of all those who suffered at the hands of those she supported and professed to 'love', by those who were directly affected by them. Begum's fate rests in the hands of the Kurds, not us.

You have expressed your deep concern about her, though.
 
Mëtal Bikër said:
That age is not a factor when it comes to whether a human being is capable of committing acts of evil. She and her friends supported evil, thought nothing of seeing people tortured, murdered or raped and shows no remorse now.

Yours is a fundamentally naive position.
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So you think a 15 year old can consent to being married and having sex with a 25 year old?

We have an age of consent in this country for a reason, and an age of majority.

If you think neither should exist, I'm not sure its worth carrying on this debate.


I think more likely is you know why these things exist, but are so ignorantly set on having a black and white view of this woman that you cannot accept that she might be a victim of crime as well as an accessory or pepertrator of it.
 
domalino said:
So you think a 15 year old can consent to being married and having sex with a 25 year old?

We have an age of consent in this country for a reason, and an age of majority.

If you think neither should exist, I'm not sure its worth carrying on this debate.


I think more likely is you know why these things exist, but are so ignorantly set on having a black and white view of this woman that you cannot accept that she might be a victim of crime as well as an accessory or pepertrator of it.
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According to the article posted by Zen, the view is that she did, yes. She was a 'horny, Muslim teenage girl who wanted sex with other Muslim boys in a Muslim society". We do indeed have an age of consent in this country; she was 15 years and 6 months when she left the UK. She was 16 when she got married. Your other point is ludicrous and has nothing to do with the debate whatsoever.

I don't have a black and white view, I share the same view as our Home Office, MI5 and security measures. She poses a risk if she were ever to arrive in the UK, she has shown no remorse for her actions, she is a 21 year old woman who has had time to reflect on what she did and has not changed her view.

Why is it so important to you that she comes to the UK? She's not a victim of crime she was complicit in one so huge it devastated an entire community that you keep ignoring. Groomed, not groomed she WAS complicit once she arrived in Syria but you dismiss those actions. She states HERSELF that she was not groomed, that she went willingly and was not forced into doing anything she didn't like. She thinks the Manchester Bombing was justified. This is not a decent person worthy of your compassion.

You're right though, there is no point having a debate with you. You're too close minded to also consider that maybe, just maybe, she did these things willingly and that when she arrived in IS she thought she'd won life's lottery. In fact you completely and utterly refuse to have that debate. I could accept she was groomed... if she hadn't already herself confessed that she wasn't.
 
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Mëtal Bikër said:
We do indeed have an age of consent in this country; she was 15 years and 6 months when she left the UK. She was 16 when she got married.
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I dont know where you got this, but its not true.

She was married 10 days after arriving. When she was 15.
 
domalino said:
Well you just invented something to make yourself feel better about a child being married off and raped, so not really.
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Didn't "invent", the source stated she was married at 16.

Funny though, that you accept that fact but ignore the fact she says she wasn't groomed, did things willingly, does not regret her actions, yet you don't believe you're inventing something about her to justify her as a victim. Wasn't raped, got married willingly, wanted to have children.

Interesting that you invented a different narrative, isn't it. :)
 
domalino said:
What is your point? That because venables killed someone as a child the age of majority and consent shouldn't exist?

I dont see how Venables is relevant at all to whether a 15 year old can consent to being a sexual reward and married off to an adult.
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As you rightly say, Venables is not relevant... but it's interesting that he doesn't mention that Thompson was also 10. And he hasn't reoffended. It's almost as if people aren't defined forever by the heinous things they may do as children.
 
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