Political relations between UK-EU

[Marlo]

Referendums are fine but they need to be advisory only. Let the result put the pressure on the government, or the one after, to act according with reference to the nation's wishes. Acting on such a close result was idiocy.

The idea of asking people to vote on a single issue is welcome, though, as it makes it a lot simpler for people to become engaged in the topic and feel part of politics in general.

Referendums work where the answer is "clean" yes no and the question relatively simple.

If you look at countries like Ireland who have had two major referendums on abortion and civil marriages in recent years, It has been done relatively smoothly.

"Should gay people be allowed to have the same marriage rights as heterosexual yes/no?"

The position of both sides should have been published and clear and then legally required to be adhered to. For the UK which seldom uses referendums to use it on such seismic questions is the biggest failing of the tories and ultimately Cameron's legacy.

The reality is brexit meant vastly different things depending on who spoke. It is also a hugely complex question, Farage's brexit, theresa may and Alexander Johnson's are all different. I also still, four years, later don't see any coherent or credible plan as to what they actually want to do. I think that is the big worry, so long was spent scheming for power but little thought has been put into what they will do with it.

What is the plan lads?

 

[BlueHammer85]

I just think if you are to hold a referendum, you have to the correct constitutional procedures in place before hand. Unfortunately Cameron's arrogance in thinking he would win comfortably meant he never put those constitutional procedures in place. Its going over old ground anyway as the result stands and was enacted upon in the end, but the bitter after taste of the effects of Cameron's decision will last a long time. We have to remember that the calling of the referendum was not done to solve issues within the country, it was done to solve issues within the Tory party and quell the rise of the UKIP as the Tories and Cameron feared losing power far more than they feared losing a referendum.

The rise of UKIP came about because there wasn’t a referendum- Anti EU sentiment had been growing and growing and the calls were getting louder, eventually a PM was going to have to offer the country a referendum.

 

[west didsblue]

The rise of UKIP came about because there wasn’t a referendum- Anti EU sentiment had been growing and growing and the calls were getting louder, eventually a PM was going to have to offer the country a referendum.

Only one reason anti-EU sentiment had been growing for as long as I can remember. Media propaganda from the likes of the Sun, Express and Mail. It’s scary that a handful of media moguls with a vested interest can wield so much influence.

The EU would have been way down the list of things people gave a toss about without the constant low level negative stories.

 

[Vic]

Only one reason anti-EU sentiment had been growing for as long as I can remember. Media propaganda from the likes of the Sun, Express and Mail. It’s scary that a handful of media moguls with a vested interest can wield so much influence.

The EU would have been way down the list of things people gave a toss about without the constant low level negative stories.

It was way down most people's priorities. The referendum's only function was to kill the Tories' divisions about Europe, and the referendum just exported that into maybe the most divisive issue in British history. Now we're divided by the issue and stuffed economically by it.

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

The rise of UKIP came about because there wasn’t a referendum- Anti EU sentiment had been growing and growing and the calls were getting louder, eventually a PM was going to have to offer the country a referendum.

What led to change? Before the Tory MPs started defecting, UKIP was a joke.

But a couple of privileged Parliamentians with eurosceptic views and with deprived/ neglected and/or aging constituencies decided to put pressure on the tories to offer a referendum.

Europe was just a convenient scapegoat for UK politicians to dump on for their own failures and derogation of responsibilities. We didn't have to pursue an increase in low wage, low skills jobs after 2008 and we didn't have to pursue austerity. But as usual British exceptionalism, short-termism and selfishness won out.

Redirect Notice

www.google.com

 

[Vic]

What led to change? Before the Tory MPs started defecting, UKIP was a joke.

But a couple of privileged Parliamentians with eurosceptic views and with deprived/ neglected and/or aging constituencies decided to put pressure on the tories to offer a referendum.

Europe was just a convenient scapegoat for UK politicians to dump on for their own failures and derogation of responsibilities. We didn't have to pursue an increase in low wage, low skills jobs after 2008 and we didn't have to pursue austerity. But as usual British exceptionalism, short-termism and selfishness won out.

Redirect Notice

www.google.com

I don't need to read the article to guess that the answer is roughly "No shit, Sherlock".

 

[Rascal]

The rise of UKIP came about because there wasn’t a referendum- Anti EU sentiment had been growing and growing and the calls were getting louder, eventually a PM was going to have to offer the country a referendum.

That is sort of correct and sort of isnt.

There was never any reason for a Government to hold a referendum, the UK does not have the constitutional provision to hold referendum. It did so because it feared losing votes to UKIP who were calling for a referendum and to placate its own Eurosceptics who were making the party ungovernable for Cameron.

It was only the desire of Cameron to stay in power was the referendum called, it was never about the EU, It was about control of the Tory party and staying in power. The Conservative party only exist to be in power, they truly believe they are the natural party of government and any threat to that hegemony is dealt with ruthlessly by the party, the organisations attached to it and the media who suck up to it,

Those who congratulate Farage for his politicking forget that there would never have been a referendum if Cameron had control of his party and there was no threat to his power.

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

That is sort of correct and sort of isnt.

There was never any reason for a Government to hold a referendum, the UK does not have the constitutional provision to hold referendum. It did so because it feared losing votes to UKIP who were calling for a referendum and to placate its own Eurosceptics who were making the party ungovernable for Cameron.

It was only the desire of Cameron to stay in power was the referendum called, it was never about the EU, It was about control of the Tory party and staying in power. The Conservative party only exist to be in power, they truly believe they are the natural party of government and any threat to that hegemony is dealt with ruthlessly by the party, the organisations attached to it and the media who suck up to it,

Those who congratulate Farage for his politicking forget that there would never have been a referendum if Cameron had control of his party and there was no threat to his power.

Well said... the Tories have no policies or agenda that improves the lives of the average person.

If you're not in politics to make life better for people then you shouldn't be in politics.

 

[BlueHammer85]

Well said... the Tories have no policies or agenda that improves the lives of the average person.

Then why does the average person vote Tory ?

 

[Cheesy]

Then why does the average person vote Tory ?

The answer to this will be that either,

a) they're thick, or

b) they've been duped by the media (so, in effect, they're thick).

 

[BlueHammer85]

The answer to this will be that either,

a) they're thick, or

b) they've been duped by the media (so, in effect, they're thick).

I don’t think that’s the answer really.

I’ve mentioned previously, vast majority of the country are doing well, have a job, security , money and feel despite the hyperbole at times, we do live in a liberal good country. I think for many, they don’t want to risk change.

 

[Cheesy]

I don’t think that’s the answer really.

I’ve mentioned previously, vast majority of the country are doing well, have a job, security , money and feel despite the hyperbole at times, we do live in a liberal good country. I think for many, they don’t want to risk change.

I meant that's the answer you'd get from the poster you asked the question of :-)

 

[west didsblue]

I don’t think that’s the answer really.

I’ve mentioned previously, vast majority of the country are doing well, have a job, security , money and feel despite the hyperbole at times, we do live in a liberal good country. I think for many, they don’t want to risk change.

I’m sure you’re right to some extent but the opposition haven’t done themselves any favours over the last few years with uninspiring leadership, ineffective messaging of their policies and a media narrative that dismisses their economic competence.

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

Then why does the average person vote Tory ?

Ive answered this in a previous thread. With a caveat that these are just my thoughts

I suppose (in a way ) that this post should be on the 'Why do you Tory' thread. Ive always believed that people who vote Tory..... hate, fear or dislike a certain class of person or race. These can be real or manufactured (in the press) and can consist of

Unemployed
Disadvantaged
Homeless
Immigrant (legal or Illegal)
Foreigners (they don't even need to be in the UK)
Single Parents
Disabled
Gypsies
Eu

etc etc


The way the Tories win your vote is by being perceived to be tough on each of these groups... by either cutting the benefits , deporting people or banging on about wave machines in the channel. This rhetoric is maintained by a drip feed of headlines in the Tory press (Mail /Express etc) and by TV programming such as ''Cant Pay Wont Pay'' or '' Benefits Britain''

I often hear Tory voters say '' I vote Tory..... I don't agree with all of their policies but'' ..... Which to me means that they'll be one group that the individual dislikes or fears (or maybe doesn't understand) ... and that can usually be brought out over a few beers and a chat. (The conversation always swings round to it).

If the Conservatives actually wanted to solve any of these problems they could / would actually legislate but they don't (for example if they wanted to get really tough on Asylum Seekers they would have to turn up at the United Nations and call for changes to the UN Refugee Convention of 1951) - are they actively lobbying for changes ? No... because it's in their interest not to solve problems as that retains their base vote.

Just my thoughts.

 

[dave_blue12]

Then why does the average person vote Tory ?

One man's opinion.

“Honest politics and Tory politics are contradictions in terms. Lying is a necessary part of a Tory’s political equipment, for it is essential for him to conceal his political intentions from the people.This is partly the reason for his success in keeping power.”

 

[Citizen of Legoland]

The rise of UKIP came about because there wasn’t a referendum- Anti EU sentiment had been growing and growing and the calls were getting louder, eventually a PM was going to have to offer the country a referendum.

This is exactly the issue. The alternative to Cameron not offering a referendum would have been the continued existence and probable rise of UKIP, and as much as Brexit is derided we could have ended up in a worse position. It was a question the nation had been promised would be asked many times before and when it came about and Cameron said it would be a one time opportunity, all the traditional parties didn't factor in the historically negative vibe towards the EU among older people. What's worse is that they had a warning with the Indy ref not long before which got way too close for comfort.

For this referendum, on such an important topic, they could have put parameters in to say it needed a margin of victory, but whilst that would have been a solution to this one, it would have also meant the continuation of anti-EU parties and probably the inevitability of future referendums. Maybe leaving the EU, learning it's the wrong decision, and rejoining in some way (SM, EFTA etc) may be the quickest route to answering an age old question.

 

[Citizen of Legoland]

Then why does the average person vote Tory ?

What's an average person, would be my first question.

 

[Vic]

If all the young people who think they've been stuffed by the older generation voted, the Tories would be out.

 

[Citizen of Legoland]

Ive answered this in a previous thread. With a caveat that these are just my thoughts

I suppose (in a way ) that this post should be on the 'Why do you Tory' thread. Ive always believed that people who vote Tory..... hate, fear or dislike a certain class of person or race. These can be real or manufactured (in the press) and can consist of

Unemployed
Disadvantaged
Homeless
Immigrant (legal or Illegal)
Foreigners (they don't even need to be in the UK)
Single Parents
Disabled
Gypsies
Eu

etc etc

The problem is I know plenty of Labour supporters (and just to clarify that is who I normally vote for) express many of these traits. I just don't think you can cast aspersions on people in that way.

 

[Deleted member 77198]

And how does the left do that? By appealing to what people have in common? Remind them that regardless of race or religion, the downtrodden masses are what we used to call the working class, and the left has always stood up for the working class! Right? But BLM would say that's a deliberate swerve to avoid the issue of race, and women would say that's the usual bullshit to exclude them, and asylum seekers say this, and urban versus countryside say that, and young versus old, and Scots versus the English and north versus south. And what about the Muslims?

Whoever said diversity is strength was having a laugh! All you get is a cacophony of noise.

So Johnson promised a Britain that made sense, of homogeneity, of shared cultural values, like it used to be (of course it was never like that, but that's beside the point). You might consider it a delusion, a blatant lie, and you may be right, but is Johnson's lie worse than the long list of lies the political class never talked about in public? Just implemented, sometimes in error, but more often quite deliberately, quietly, over many decades.

What's the left going to tell people yearning for this lost Britain? You know, to bring them around? I'll tell you what they'll do, they'll call them racist and wait for them to die.

Meanwhile a never ending succession of Tory fuckwits will rule now and forever.

Best post in the Politcs forum for ages!