Coronavirus (2021) thread

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PannickAtTheDisco said:
on the face of it, why is it the "traditional" vaccine methods being linked to blood clot issues but not the mRNA ones?
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Probably as the mRNA ones are the futuristic science ones that will in due course be seen to turn your skin blue and grow an extra ear.

Sorry - obviously a bad joke and they will not.

But there is a danger here of assuming the devil we do not know is necessarily in the long term obviously better than the one we do and a sense of proportion on all these vaccines is needed.

We are learning as we go but the big picture is we are also trying to save the planet.

That balance will involve a degree of risk. We just need to do all to minimise that risk.

Roubaix Tuesday is going to be on the money with the science and real reason.

But I do wish we could just be talking about THE vaccine not some kind of competition. It has the potential to turn into the biggest mistake we made if it drives down confidence in all kind of vaccination.

And the mRNA ones are revolutionary science and could open up jabs for so many things that will be just as revolutionary as Covid and we need that research not to be undermined.
 
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Healdplace said:
Probably as the mRNA ones are the futuristic science ones that will in due course be seen to turn your skin blue and grow an extra ear.

Sorry - obviously a bad joke and they will not.

But there is a danger here of assuming the devil we do not know is necessarily in the long term obviously better than the one we do and a sense of proportion on all these vaccines is needed.

We are learning as we go but the big picture is we are also trying to save the planet.

That balance will involve a degree of risk. We just need to do all to minimise that risk.

Roubaix Tuesday is going to be on the money with the science and real reason.

But I do wish we could just be talking about THE vaccine not some kind of competition. It has the potential to turn into the biggest mistake we made if it drives down confidence in all kind of vaccination.

And the mRNA ones are revolutionary science and could open up jabs for so many things that will be just as revolutionary as Covid and we need that research not to be undermined.
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Problem it's not just The vaccine, and it's already bad enough people not knowing which one is going in their body because that's not really ethical. It would be better now if everyone collaborated and produced single vaccines instead of competing with each other.
 
Bit of a disappointing day from the England hospital data.

Deaths are almost triple from last week.

To 33 from 12.

But last Tuesday was as already discussed here an anomalous one and the weekend catch up was delayed due to Easter. So - hopefully - this is not a 'real' rise.

8 - the most of all regions - are from the NW by the way. But that is often true on a normal midweek as they always under report at weekends.
 
Did I hear correctly that the US have suspended the J&J vaccine after 6 blood clot deaths... out of 7 million people vaccinated?

Utterly bonkers if true, surely.
 
PannickAtTheDisco said:
Problem it's not just The vaccine, and it's already bad enough people not knowing which one is going in their body because that's not really ethical. It would be better now if everyone collaborated and produced single vaccines instead of competing with each other.
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People are told which Covid vaccine they are getting and it didn’t matter to me whether I received AZ / Oxford or Pfizer. They have already saved more than 10,000 lives in the U.K.

Covid isn’t going to turn western democracies into communist states so there is always going to be more than one vaccine.
 
Tim of the Oak said:
People are told which Covid vaccine they are getting and it didn’t matter to me whether I received AZ / Oxford or Pfizer. They have already saved more than 10,000 lives in the U.K.

Covid isn’t going to turn western democracies into communist states so there is always going to be more than one vaccine.
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My argument is not with this but that creating a battle of the vaccines as to which is best is eroding confidence and inferring this IS a choice when often it is not.

Vastly different from the annual flu vaccine where nobody has the faintest idea who makes what you are given or its stats relative to anything else. As such you have THE jab or do not.

We have engineered a situation where the concept of being vaccinated is now about consumerism and choice of which is best. Not necessity to help protect you without thinking.

I fear that may have long term implications for all future vaccination programmes beyond Covid.
 
PannickAtTheDisco said:
Problem it's not just The vaccine, and it's already bad enough people not knowing which one is going in their body because that's not really ethical. It would be better now if everyone collaborated and produced single vaccines instead of competing with each other.
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Competition breeds innovation.

mRNA vaccines are, on paper, the very definition of innovation. They are effectively a proof-of-concept that we can stimulate protein production. It's a much better fix than traditional medicines because instead of plugging a hole, it's repairing the hole to begin with.
 
roubaixtuesday said:
Currently 1,000 people per day are dying from COVID in the US.
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TBF it's come down quite a lot of late and is running at around 750/day as a moving average (compared to around 3,000/day back in January).

But your point stands, to halt a vaccine which will save thousands of lives, because of fears over 6 deaths, is just plain silly.
 
More on England hospital deaths.

Only 26 are later than the start of Easter weekend.

Week to week there is little sign of an uptick and no day had more than single figures added.

The worrying day of 8 April - which was 25 after just 2 days (well above ay other recent day) has proved just an outlier and added only 3 since to total 28 after 5 days.

The seven days preceding it are all under 20.

Nothing behind it is looking close to making 20 let alone 28.
 
PannickAtTheDisco said:
on the face of it, why is it the "traditional" vaccine methods being linked to blood clot issues but not the mRNA ones?
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Traditional vaccines are formulated with so called adjuvants which are stimulators of the immune response. A sort of jolt to the immune system to activate it. Given that the clotting issue seems to be related to an immune response it's entirely possible that both vaccines are using the same adjuvant and that's where the issue lies.

Fact is, we don't know what's causing it right now but some theories have been proposed and are being considered.
 
03 March 2002 said:
Traditional vaccines are formulated with so called adjuvants which are stimulators of the immune response. A sort of jolt to the immune system to activate it. Given that the clotting issue seems to be related to an immune response it's entirely possible that both vaccines are using the same adjuvant and that's where the issue lies.

Fact is, we don't know what's causing it right now but some theories have been proposed and are being considered.
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Don't think these are adjuvanted vaccines.
The theory I've seen advanced is that it is possibly the DNA in the viral vector being free and polyanionic inducing antibodies similar to heparin.
 
roubaixtuesday said:
I got that from ourworldindata, 7 day average (actually 960). Like you say, regardless of the precise figures, these are big numbers, and surely outweigh these very small risks.

ourworldindata.org

COVID-19 Data Explorer

Explore global data on COVID-19.
ourworldindata.org ourworldindata.org
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Fair enough. FWIW, there seems to be some disagreement upon the figures amongst those collecting them!

1618321382272.png
 
Chippy_boy said:
Did I hear correctly that the US have suspended the J&J vaccine after 6 blood clot deaths... out of 7 million people vaccinated?

Utterly bonkers if true, surely.
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Yup! Portugal finally got their much needed shipment of J&J today and it's now on hold until the health regulator gets the green light from a higher health regulator that its ok and then will be passed on to the attorney general to make sure the state doesn't get caught up in any potential litigation... will probably go to the over 60s as well as AZ - Its nuts and is just going to add months to this whole process if we carry on like this
 
johnnymarrsbarres said:
Anyway - felt great to have a quiet pint last night even in the freezing cold. The Grey Horse in Reddish - proper blue pub and a big beer garden. Shame it’s a Holt’s but you can’t win em all.
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Liked your post despite the last line ! I'm basically a City fan because of Holt and Robbies pubs.
 
Cityfan said:
Don't think these are adjuvanted vaccines.
The theory I've seen advanced is that it is possibly the DNA in the viral vector being free and polyanionic inducing antibodies similar to heparin.
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roubaixtuesday said:
I don't think the AZ vaccine has an adjuvant. From the EMA public assessment "no adjuvants or novel excipients are used in this product"

Vaxzevria (previously COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca) - European Medicines Agency

Vaxzevria (previously COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca)
www.ema.europa.eu www.ema.europa.eu

Not sure about J&J
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I stand corrected.
 
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