Shamima Begum

[Bigga]

Not known for my class mate, but I think it's a fair point..

It's a very salient observation, grounded in truth.

 

[Chris B]

I said the discussion had become circular which is why it should come to an end. I haven't moved the needle for you, despite showing how silly your posts were looking.

You've claimed I've "misrepresented" you, when I have used your own points against your argument. They're silly view points, but they're yours. No problem with that.

You said



No, I said you were "inclined to believe" the reports as you offered no scepticism on unverified reports and dismissed Begum's on defence on those reports. Nor did you infer, at all, a view you've miraculously just had on "misreporting, misidentification and disinformation". Your ability to rewind time is misplaced.

I find this part most ironic as well as we know what Govs do very well, by now...



You're completely aware this country helped murder 100s of 1000s of Middle Eastern civilians based upon "reports" without evidence searching for "weapons of mass destruction".

And this, at the time, misguided 15 year old child is a "threat to national security" based upon "reports".

I ask you to compare the two weights of "risk to national security" on a scale based upon "reports".

The woman is now 22, by the way, so maybe time has stopped by you?

If you cannot see the sheer stupidity of this situation then there's no hope, really, is there?

I did say “I doubt they could be proven…”, so there was evidence of my scepticism there if you cared to look for it. Looking back at the posts I don’t see much silliness there, and Iraq/Nazis/etc is irrelevant to this woman’s situation.

Anyway…

Your view is that she is being punished for a mistake made as a 15 yo and should be allowed to return to the UK. As I understand it, this is an argument on the sound moral basis of forgiveness, and treating others as you’d wish to be treated, and that children should be held to a lower standard than adults. Fine.

Mine is that she is an adult (22 now, how time flies) former member of ISIS, and her coming back here would potentially pose a danger to UK citizens. That’s an argument that has been tested by the supreme court and found to be sound, in law at least.

You could argue one view or the other gives too much weight to one principle or another. I don’t think sheer stupidity comes into either argument.

My viewpoint is perhaps formed by the experience of having lived in two towns/cities where children have been deliberately targeted and killed by terrorists, and the knowledge that there are more potential terrorists now in the UK than can be supervised. I’m sure you have a valid basis for your viewpoint too so I guess that’s the end of it.

 

[journolud]

Your view is that she is being punished for a mistake made as a 15 yo and should be allowed to return to the UK. As I understand it, this is an argument on the sound moral basis of forgiveness, and treating others as you’d wish to be treated, and that children should be held to a lower standard than adults. Fine.

I don’t want to Wade in on someone else’s debate and @Bigga is well able to clarify his own position but I don’t think this is a question of forgiveness rather than accountability.

 

[Chris B]

I don’t want to Wade in on someone else’s debate and @Bigga is well able to clarify his own position but I don’t think this is a question of forgiveness rather than accountability.

I only mentioned it because they keep going on about forgiveness to me. Personally I see it as irrelevant.

 

[journolud]

I only mentioned it because they keep going on about forgiveness to me. Personally I see it as irrelevant.

Well forgiveness is very much a personal thing and from my own point of view not for me to bestow. Her being held accountable through the proper processes is for the state

 

[mat]

Not known for my class mate, but I think it's a fair point..

It's the way you phrased it that's wound people up I think.

I agree with the point your making. As superficiality plays a large part in western culture.

 

[kaz7]

I reckon people would be a lot more sympathetic to her plight if she wasn't so ugly

bollocks comment

 

[Bigga]

I did say “I doubt they could be proven…”, so there was evidence of my scepticism there if you cared to look for it. Looking back at the posts I don’t see much silliness there, and Iraq/Nazis/etc is irrelevant to this woman’s situation.

Anyway…

Your view is that she is being punished for a mistake made as a 15 yo and should be allowed to return to the UK. As I understand it, this is an argument on the sound moral basis of forgiveness, and treating others as you’d wish to be treated, and that children should be held to a lower standard than adults. Fine.

Mine is that she is an adult (22 now, how time flies) former member of ISIS, and her coming back here would potentially pose a danger to UK citizens. That’s an argument that has been tested by the supreme court and found to be sound, in law at least.

You could argue one view or the other gives too much weight to one principle or another. I don’t think sheer stupidity comes into either argument.

My viewpoint is perhaps formed by the experience of having lived in two towns/cities where children have been deliberately targeted and killed by terrorists, and the knowledge that there are more potential terrorists now in the UK than can be supervised. I’m sure you have a valid basis for your viewpoint too so I guess that’s the end of it.

Good grief...

I'll put it as simply as I can for want of dissecting the whole premise of 'terrorism' for this female.

I'm assuming you thought differently at the age of 14/15 than you did at the age of 21/22 just living within your own space.

Just humour me for a sec here; how likely do you think that it is for a kid at 15, living a lifetime of experiences you or I could never fathom, could possibly look back on her short existence and see the major damage she has done to friends and family, ending up without a country to call her own and not be regretful of her headstrong childish actions, so much so, she's willing to do time for it (regardless of whether that happens or not)?

The gov says at certain level ages comes certain responsibilities, which does not take into account emotional responsibility within those parameters (knife crime is a really good example of this).

I KNOW I fucked up at 15/ 16 and I was headstrong, but I didn't have the curse of the internet, as it is now, to speed my world into chaos and there are a LOT of people holding some kind of moral high ground when it comes to being stupid teens with raging hormones.

I think I really am done here.

 

[MellowJoe]

It's the way you phrased it that's wound people up I think.

I agree with the point your making. As superficiality plays a large part in western culture.

Indeed it does.. it shouldn't matter one iota how unattractive she is, she's still a human being that needs love and understanding

 

[WNRH]

Good grief...

I'll put it as simply as I can for want of dissecting the whole premise of 'terrorism' for this female.

I'm assuming you thought differently at the age of 14/15 than you did at the age of 21/22 just living within your own space.

Just humour me for a sec here; how likely do you think that it is for a kid at 15, living a lifetime of experiences you or I could never fathom, could possibly look back on her short existence and see the major damage she has done to friends and family, ending up without a country to call her own and not be regretful of her headstrong childish actions, so much so, she's willing to do time for it (regardless of whether that happens or not)?

The gov says at certain level ages comes certain responsibilities, which does not take into account emotional responsibility within those parameters (knife crime is a really good example of this).

I KNOW I fucked up at 15/ 16 and I was headstrong, but I didn't have the curse of the internet, as it is now, to speed my world into chaos and there are a LOT of people holding some kind of moral high ground when it comes to being stupid teens with raging hormones.

I think I really am done here.

I’ll humour you. Do you think 14/15 year olds who commit murder should be shown leiniency because they showed “childish actions” due to their age?

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

I’ll humour you. Do you think 14/15 year olds who commit murder should be shown leiniency because they showed “childish actions” due to their age?

It’s absolutely a long-established principle (for very good reason) that young people are punished less severely (and therefore more leniently) because of their age, even for the most horrific crimes.

 

[Bigga]

I’ll humour you. Do you think 14/15 year olds who commit murder should be shown leiniency because they showed “childish actions” due to their age?

I think they should do the appropriate punishment and then given the chance to redress their lives as mentality tends to change from youth to adulthood.

Not always, but they must be given that chance to be better Human Beings in the future.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

I think they should do the appropriate punishment and then given the chance to redress their lives as mentality tends to change from youth to adulthood.

Not always, but they must be given that chance to be better Human Beings in the future.

If you take the antithesis of that viewpoint to its logical conclusion, older people, adults, who should know better, and have the benefit of life experience, should face no harsher punishment for their crimes than offenders who are legally children.

 

[Bigga]

If you take the antithesis of that viewpoint to its logical conclusion, older people, adults, who should know better, and have the benefit of life experience, should face no harsher punishment for their crimes than offenders who are legally children.

But, the "logical conclusion" you've reached becomes circular and means nobody should be punished to any major degree.

That would mean mass murderers/ serial killers get the same pass. Is this your hypothesis...?

There's a huge difference between kids growing up into their bodies with hormones and mixed emotions and adults who have "been there, done that".

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

But, the "logical conclusion" you've reached becomes circular and means nobody should be punished to any major degree.

That would mean mass murderers/ serial killers get the same pass. Is this your hypothesis...?

There's a huge difference between kids growing up into their bodies with hormones and mixed emotions and adults who have "been there, done that".

He is agreeing with you Bigga.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

But, the "logical conclusion" you've reached becomes circular and means nobody should be punished to any major degree.

That would mean mass murderers/ serial killers get the same pass. Is this your hypothesis...?

There's a huge difference between kids growing up into their bodies with hormones and mixed emotions and adults who have "been there, done that".

I’m not saying that at all. But a youth should definitely face less severe punishment than an adult for the same offence. On that basis, your first paragraph is misconceived.

Not quite sure what your last paragraph is about because that echoes what I was saying.

Think you might have misunderstood what I was saying because your response is confusing.

 

[Chris in London]

I’m not saying that at all. But a youth should definitely face less severe punishment than an adult for the same offence. On that basis, your first paragraph is misconceived.

Not quite sure what your last paragraph is about because that echoes what I was saying.

Think you might have misunderstood what I was saying because your response is confusing.

There are some strange views on here.

Some want an offence committed when the criminal was still a child punished in the same way as you would punish an adult.

Some want a criminal punished for a crime there is no evidence she ever committed.

Some don't want her punished at all.

 

[Alan Harper's Tash]

There are some strange views on here.

Some want an offence committed when the criminal was still a child punished in the same way as you would punish an adult.

Some want a criminal punished for a crime there is no evidence she ever committed.

Some don't want her punished at all.

Not sure there are many in that last category.

The ones who think she should come back want her to be made accountable in whatever way the law can.

 

[Chris in London]

Not sure there are many in that last category.

The ones who think she should come back want her to be made accountable in whatever way the law can.

Reading the thread it seems to me that more the half of the posts are in that category. They don't want her back, so if she doesn't come back she can't be punished.

Me, I think she's British, she grew up here, she knew the score, she broke the law by joining a terrorist organisation. She needs to pay for that. By all means let a Judge take her age and general stupidity into account, but she needs to spend time in a British jail.

 

[Alan Harper's Tash]

Reading the thread it seems to me that more the half of the posts are in that category. They don't want her back, so if she doesn't come back she can't be punished.

Me, I think she's British, she grew up here, she knew the score, she broke the law by joining a terrorist organisation. She needs to pay for that. By all means let a Judge take her age and general stupidity into account, but she needs to spend time in a British jail.

Think we’re on the same page.

I didn’t think of not punishing her as leaving her in Syria.