Like the snarky remark about intelligence. Maybe u should follow same example perhaps!This is almost like a mysogyny 101.
'More men die than women.' - yes, generally due to unjust archaic patriachal society, but whats that got to do with condoning women slavery?
'So what happens to the women?' - Err they carry on their lives as previously, and aren't enslaved?
'Go out get a job?' - yes, just like men if they want, it's not for religion to determine after a war (or at all), what women do.
'But after a war there is basically no economy... so what do u do to provide?' - same as prior, without the need for the involvement of slavery of women. Perhaps you should enslave all men, and get women to work them really hard to get the economy going...
'Prostitution?' - What's prostitution got to do with slavery? Slavery of wives, is effectively prostitution, as that's the entire purpose you just stated - to re-populate - ie sex!
'This is why he prescribed it as permissable pending u do equal just to all wives and equal share, and u provide food and shelter.' - so multiple slave owning is fine, rather than just multiple (if they want to) wives who can also provide work/money/food for the husband, or not need to have a husband at all.
'Hope that answers your question' - yep, your religion is fully condoning slavery and making women lesser than men.
'Do your research pls, and NOT using islamaphobe websites.' - WTF islamophobe? Anti-religion yes, treating all religions with the same degree of 'fairy stories and myths', yes. But a phobic against 1 singular religion...err... no.
At least @vmsuhail answered with some degree of intelligence.
I can provide you the specific Sahih Al Bukhary and surah’s in private if you like. Don’t think mods would allow for it on here.
You can say and write many cute things in a book. But what does that matter when Mohammed sold slaves and had sex with them against their will. Basically they had no freedom. Nor does Islam ban slavery. It just gives you a structure on how you can keep slaves the best manner. But best manner for who exactly?
there is also this odd narrative that slavery was a normal thing during those times. For which culture? Maybe the Arabic culture. Whilst I won’t deny that you see feudalism and captivity in African history. Slavery was largely focused on Africans conquered and converted to Islam in the northern regions of africa. When you look at western and southern history. That’s just not a thing. There were many opponents fighting against the idea of Arabic slavery during that time. So at what point did god forget to tell Muhammad to stop raping his slaves? How can he be the best example of mankind? And is it surprising that we have extremists following an extreme warmonger? You can’t just excuse religion and say, bad people are using it as a tool for evil. Maybe there is something more inherently weak about the religious standpoint.
They carry on with their lives... whatever that maybe... but it has no human moral basis to be enslavement by religious text. That's just oppressing them even further than the effects of the outside source's you are alluding to.Like the snarky remark about intelligence. Maybe u should follow same example perhaps!
How do women provide for their kids then....? U answered with.. "err they move on". Really? Maybe u have no idea or clue how life looks like once the colonials come in and rape your people n lands. Tell that to the Iraqis, Libyans, Syrians etc. I guess u have no fukin clue. Do some research would u before posting a pathetic response.
I've never read the Qu'ran, so I can't really comment on anything in it...but reading your comment here; where does Allah state "thou shall NOT have slaves or own another human"? Why doesn't this god just make it clear that slavery is wrong in the first place? Anybody that attempts to own another human will be punished?You may put those verses and hadiths here itself, the Qur'an is an open book, we need not take it to PMs. You have made so many points here, I would request making one at a time for the sake of brevity and not overloading.
What you belittle as "cute things in a book" was rigorously followed by the early Muslims who paid money out of their means to free slaves.
The claim that "Muhammad sold slaves" itself is arguable. I didn't contest this earlier because I didn't want to drag the discussion about authenticity of historical texts. For the record, there is no verse in the Qur'an that speaks of selling/purchasing slaves, whereas there are enough verses about manumitting them.
1. Freeing slaves was mentioned as an act of righteousness.
Qur'an 2:177 "Righteousness is not that you turn your faces toward the east or the west, but [true] righteousness is [in] one who believes in Allah , the Last Day, the angels, the Book, and the prophets and gives wealth, in spite of love for it, to relatives, orphans, the needy, the traveler, those who ask [for help], and for freeing slaves; [and who] establishes prayer and gives zakah; [those who] fulfill their promise when they promise; and [those who] are patient in poverty and hardship and during battle. Those are the ones who have been true, and it is those who are the righteous."
2. Asking slave owners to enter into a manumission contract for those slaves who want freedom
Qur'an 24:33 "And those who seek a contract [for eventual emancipation] from among whom your right hands possess - then make a contract with them if you know there is within them goodness and give them from the wealth of Allah which He has given you. "
3. Recommending Muslims to marry slaves thereby emancipating them
Qur’an 24:32 "Marry those among you who are single, and the virtuous ones among your slaves, male or female: if they are in poverty, Allah will give them means out of His grace: for Allah is Ample-giving, and He knoweth all things."
4. To use the obligatory charity collected by the government on freeing slaves
Qur'an 9:60 "Zakah (alms-tax) expenditures are only for the poor and for the needy and for those employed to collect [zakah] and for bringing hearts together [for Islam] and for freeing captives [or slaves] and for those in debt and for the cause of Allah and for the [stranded] traveler - an obligation [imposed] by Allah . And Allah is Knowing and Wise."
5. In hadith literature, we also find Muslims being asked to free slaves as a means of expiation for their sins
I never said Islam banned slavery(it was perhaps impossible), but I consider these laws in the early 7th century reformist in nature and understand the overall theme in the Qur'an to be about their emanicipation than about making slaves.
Slavery was there right from the time of Abraham(as). The majority of the Arab tribes trace their lineage to the first son of Abraham(as), Ishmael(as). We are talking about a society that has slavery existing for almost 2500 years.
There is no raping slaves. Qur'an asked to do good to the slaves and the prophet taught to help slaves in heavy tasks and not to even beat them.
Qur'an 4:36 "Worship Allah and associate nothing with Him, and to parents do good, and to relatives, orphans, the needy, the near neighbor, the neighbor farther away, the companion at your side, the traveler, and those whom your right hands possess. Indeed, Allah does not like those who are self-deluding and boastful"
The idea that one can rape a slave is an ISIS interpretation. Masters are allowed to have conjugal relations with their slaves. Captives of war were taken as slaves. Both are pre-Islamic practices which were continued. Put these 2 together and voila "rape". Imagine if the prophet himself is a rapist, then how do you think people would even value him as a human (atleast the women folk) ? Instead you see his followers (both men and women) loving him more than themselves with a reverence that no other prophet received.
I've never read the Qu'ran, so I can't really comment on anything in it...but reading your comment here; where does Allah state "thou shall NOT have slaves or own another human"? Why doesn't this god just make it clear that slavery is wrong in the first place? Anybody that attempts to own another human will be punished?
Sorry for insults. Blame it on Covid. Totally KOd. Sorry.They carry on with their lives... whatever that maybe... but it has no human moral basis to be enslavement by religious text. That's just oppressing them even further than the effects of the outside source's you are alluding to.
And again, WTF has western invasions got to do with advocating and pushing for women slavery?
There is no need to codicil it with invasion/war/repopulation.
It's a simple statement: do you believe your religion advocates slavery of women? Clearly, yes.
As for myself... and reading, you have no clue about me, as I have about you.
I know this about you: Supports (presumably) MCFC, is likely to be a follower of islamic religion.
You know this about me: Supports (presumably) MCFC, is likely to be an athiest.
Anything else is just insults and presumption.
The Islamic religions claims in the Quran that it is the perfect and complete guide for all human eternity.You may put those verses and hadiths here itself, the Qur'an is an open book, we need not take it to PMs. You have made so many points here, I would request making one at a time for the sake of brevity and not overloading.
What you belittle as "cute things in a book" was rigorously followed by the early Muslims who paid money out of their means to free slaves.
The claim that "Muhammad sold slaves" itself is arguable. I didn't contest this earlier because I didn't want to drag the discussion about authenticity of historical texts. For the record, there is no verse in the Qur'an that speaks of selling/purchasing slaves, whereas there are enough verses about manumitting them.
1. Freeing slaves was mentioned as an act of righteousness.
Qur'an 2:177 "Righteousness is not that you turn your faces toward the east or the west, but [true] righteousness is [in] one who believes in Allah , the Last Day, the angels, the Book, and the prophets and gives wealth, in spite of love for it, to relatives, orphans, the needy, the traveler, those who ask [for help], and for freeing slaves; [and who] establishes prayer and gives zakah; [those who] fulfill their promise when they promise; and [those who] are patient in poverty and hardship and during battle. Those are the ones who have been true, and it is those who are the righteous."
2. Asking slave owners to enter into a manumission contract for those slaves who want freedom
Qur'an 24:33 "And those who seek a contract [for eventual emancipation] from among whom your right hands possess - then make a contract with them if you know there is within them goodness and give them from the wealth of Allah which He has given you. "
3. Recommending Muslims to marry slaves thereby emancipating them
Qur’an 24:32 "Marry those among you who are single, and the virtuous ones among your slaves, male or female: if they are in poverty, Allah will give them means out of His grace: for Allah is Ample-giving, and He knoweth all things."
4. To use the obligatory charity collected by the government on freeing slaves
Qur'an 9:60 "Zakah (alms-tax) expenditures are only for the poor and for the needy and for those employed to collect [zakah] and for bringing hearts together [for Islam] and for freeing captives [or slaves] and for those in debt and for the cause of Allah and for the [stranded] traveler - an obligation [imposed] by Allah . And Allah is Knowing and Wise."
5. In hadith literature, we also find Muslims being asked to free slaves as a means of expiation for their sins
I never said Islam banned slavery(it was perhaps impossible), but I consider these laws in the early 7th century reformist in nature and understand the overall theme in the Qur'an to be about their emanicipation than about making slaves.
Slavery was there right from the time of Abraham(as). The majority of the Arab tribes trace their lineage to the first son of Abraham(as), Ishmael(as). We are talking about a society that has slavery existing for almost 2500 years.
There is no raping slaves. Qur'an asked to do good to the slaves and the prophet taught to help slaves in heavy tasks and not to even beat them.
Qur'an 4:36 "Worship Allah and associate nothing with Him, and to parents do good, and to relatives, orphans, the needy, the near neighbor, the neighbor farther away, the companion at your side, the traveler, and those whom your right hands possess. Indeed, Allah does not like those who are self-deluding and boastful"
The idea that one can rape a slave is an ISIS interpretation. Masters are allowed to have conjugal relations with their slaves. Captives of war were taken as slaves. Both are pre-Islamic practices which were continued. Put these 2 together and voila "rape". Imagine if the prophet himself is a rapist, then how do you think people would even value him as a human (atleast the women folk) ? Instead you see his followers (both men and women) loving him more than themselves with a reverence that no other prophet received.
My Source is just the words of a religious book. So, unreliable… I agree.Sorry for insults. Blame it on Covid. Totally KOd. Sorry.
Have you read or studied the quran? My assumption is no. So I guess u read it and ask questions to the right people who have studied it word for word.
And yes I follow islam. Spot on.. But of recently. Born into secular family. Studied both quran and Bible and made my choice. Doing my 2nd bachelors in Islamic theology. So yes it's close to home but I do ask that u select reliable resources before anything else. Already said it in this thread, I'm a student and still learning.
So your god is weak as fuck. What's the point? It's the same with the other non-existent god (or is it the same one?),,,strict orders not to eat shellfish but nothing to stop slavery. What a joke. This god could have just said "thou shalt not keep slaves or own other humans" from the start. Your excuses are very weak too. It's shameful that you can worship such an immoral concept and then make excuses for it. All over something that has zero evidence for its existence.If you are taught that freeing slaves is a righteous act, and specifically asked to get into a manumission contract with your slaves who want freedom, then doesn't that automatically mean slavery is not desired ? As for a complete ban, I believe it was impossible. The society loses a big chunk of the workforce if they are just set free. It's also a mindset developed over years, how does that go away just like that ? How many years have we been fighting racism and has it gone away ?
Then there is the also issue of prisoners of war. The 2 options given in the Qur'an were to exchange for the Muslim prisoners or to give back if their relatives paid a ransom. But, not everyone will have wealthy relatives or maybe they also lost their lives in the war. There was no UN at the time, and Arabia at the time is not oil-rich. The only option is to use the existing system - take them as slaves, distribute and assign masters over them who will be responsible for their needs, and thereby integrate into your community.
...and I think that if theists were intelligent and honest enough, they would question their beliefs and come to the same conclusion. The theists on here are intelligent...but they must find it difficult to be more honest with themselves.That's me in the corner
That's me in the spolight
Losing my religion.
It's wrong. It warps peoples minds, there is no religion just an interpretation by individuals, they twist it and use it to benefit themselves.
So sad
I fully accept this is a generalisation but the Catholic Church banned birth control. That kept the majority in poverty and therefore less educated. In turn that meant it was easier to indoctrinate them into catholic beliefs. The church then passed round the begging bowl, sorry collection, taking money they desperately needed thenselves but also continuing the poverty/belief cycle ....and I think that if theists were intelligent and honest enough, they would question their beliefs and come to the same conclusion. The theists on here are intelligent...but they must find it difficult to be more honest with themselves.
When it comes to the first issue, there has been a recent academic treatment of it by Jonathan AC Brown called Slavery and Islam.'Hope that answers your question' - yep, your religion is fully condoning slavery and making women lesser than men.
The Islamic religions claims in the Quran that it is the perfect and complete guide for all human eternity.
So it claims to be the perfect system before, during and after the lifespan of human kind. Now you’ve again quoted me some lovely, cute stuff, but let’s get this straight. Islam allows and regulates slavery, Mohammed practiced slavery and your scripture makes slavery possible even today. There is no point downplaying this because it is not my opinion, your very own scripture and its heroes say so. Since the Quran is the main source of your believe lets look at some of its verses.
Quran 2:178 – “Prescribed for you is legal retribution for those murdered. The free for the Free, the slave for the slave, and the female for the female” – Why is Allah dividing humans in different categories? Is Allah not supposed to be equal?
Sahih Muslim 1602, book 22, hadith 152, 10:3901 Mohammed purchased slaves, not exactly emancipation now is it? In fact, he traded 2 black slaves for 1 arab slave. Hmmm? Why not free all 3 slaves? Why are 2 black slaves worth 1 Arab slave? Mohammed does not seem to be following all that you said above.
Sahih Bukari 9:89:296 – a Slave owner wanted to free a slave, but Mohammed instead decided to sell him for 800 dirhams
Quran 33:50 – Sex with slaves
Quran 4:24 – shows that the companions of Mohammad were reluctant to have sex with married slaves until Muhammed approved it in the Quran and suggested to not pull out either.
23:5-6, 70:27-30 – more sex with slaves, or let’s call it what it is (rape).
Quran 66:4 – Mohammed raped his Egyptian slave Maria de Coptic. His wives Aisha and Hafsa felt disrespected, but Allah intervenes repudiating his wives. Same in Sahih Muslim 15:4112
Sahih Bukhari, slave owner frees a slave, but Mohammed said they would have gotten more reward if they had given her to one of her maternal uncles.
Sahih Bukhari – “none of you should flog his wife as he flogs a slave and then have sexual intercourse with her”. Says Mohammed...
As for the whole islam encourages you to free slaves, it does not hold up when your leader is clearly not following his own rules. In fact, Zad al-Ma’ad says the names of at least 40 slaves owned by Mohammed…Perhaps you meant to say “whoever frees a “MUSLIM SLAVE”, allah will save all the parts of his body from the hellfire. Sahuh Bukhari 3:46:693
Now as for the treatment of slaves, well as you can see from the verses, Muslims during that time tended to rape the slaves. The Zanj Rebellion against the abbasid Caliphate is also testament and evidence that muslims treated the slaves brutally, and that africans were against slavery. Slavery was certainly a norm in Arabic culture, but it is false to say it was the norm worldwide in this historical period. As we had many powerful civilisations during this period that did not engage in slavery and even fought against it. So, there was clearly a moral high ground and difference being made even during these periods. People just seem to think that Abrahamic history is the worlds history. That is not the case! For example
Sassanid Empire had slavery laws that stated beating slaves is a crime even for a king, slaves to be treated humanly or freed, slaves can buy freedom, freeing slaves encouraged. This was before islam…
Today self-proclaimed califates such as isis, that ignore western international law, go back to Islamic laws to enslave people of my country and tribe in Mali today. For example, you have my tribe the madinka, who are at large Muslims. We have another group called the dogan people. These are also madinka, but called dogan, because they rejected to follow Islam.These people are being killed and sold into slavery by the Muslims to Arabic nations. The Muslims don’t do this because they corrupt Islam, or because they are a bunch of lawless people. No, they take this practice directly from their leader, the one your book claims to be the example of humanity.
I would say that you are better and live a more morally righteous life than Mohammed sir. And so have millions of leaders before, during and after Mohammed’s life.
My point was not even really about Islam, but religion as a whole. It is nonsense to claim that religion has not encouraged people to do bad things and just excuse it by saying bad people use religion as a tool.
So your god is weak as fuck. What's the point? It's the same with the other non-existent god (or is it the same one?),,,strict orders not to eat shellfish but nothing to stop slavery. What a joke. This god could have just said "thou shalt not keep slaves or own other humans" from the start. Your excuses are very weak too. It's shameful that you can worship such an immoral concept and then make excuses for it. All over something that has zero evidence for its existence.
You're missing my point. This god character could have stated clearly that slavery was not allowed under any circumstances. Your god failed the people."Nothing to stop slavery" ? That's not an honest assessment at all. You might find my reasons weak, but those are the ground realities I understood from a very good historical study. I'm not advocating it either, in fact I understand the overall theme of the Qur'an to be against it.
Told me I was immature...I've actually met one in the flesh. Told me I wasn't capable of critical thinking.
The Chinese communist party banned religion.That’s kind of the Star Trek scenario. From memory, I think Gene Roddenberry deliberately made the Starship Enterprise a religion-free zone (no chapels, mosques etc.).
I reckon religion will still be with us right to the end, though (assuming that the human race isn’t going to be around for that much longer).
Right now, secularisation is patchy.
Just to add, there is a beatitude that is often translated as ‘blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth’ which, from the Aramaic, might be translated more like ‘blessed are the humble for they shall receive the earth.’ Maybe we could extend that to saying that as one lets go of arrogance, one becomes more open to receive the gifts of Mother Nature. And if She is truly beautiful, then maybe that’s not such a bad thingThank you for that answer.
When I read the Qur'an a few years ago i was struck by just how much the book was aimed at essentially only men. It talked to men directly, how they should 'treat their women' etc etc, and women were referenced only really via "tell your women to do this". Women were to be revered, yes, but reverence doesn't imply equality. It is a pedestal to be placed upon, with anger aimed towards women who don't achieve the lofty expectations decided by 'god'. Any women who didn't live up to those standards, which were essentially standards of chastity, were a disgrace, whereas that wasn't the case with men as such. Found it very unbalanced.