Our Badge

halfcenturyup said:
I suppose we could consider if what the British did in building their empire was any better or worse than, say, the Spanish at the same time, to put the developments into a context.

Anyway, personally I don't feel any guilt about what happened in building the British Empire, any more than I feel hostility to Scandinavians, whose ancestors raped and pillaged in their conquest of Northern England. It's all just history to me.
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Being both Spanish and English, I have a unique insight in to that comparison: both countries have much to atone for. ;-)

And I don’t feel guilt, either, nor was my post indicating we should.

But what I do think we need to do is study the past to understand how it shaped the present (and how it will influence the future), as it has very real, continuing consequences that we are at least partially responsible for (again, what is currently happening in Sudan and Israel/Palestine being but two of many, many examples of that). And that extends to our actions today; our socioeconomic structure is largely based on externalised cost through exploitation of peoples around the world, much of it originating from our empire building.

To ignore that is to act as if our way of life is wholly independent of what has come before. Which is not only demonstratively wrong, but very dangerous.

Anyway, I should probably stop now, as I will soon rightly be asked to take the discussion elsewhere. My original post wasn’t meant to ignite a debate of political and economic history, but just explain why I would be considered “woke” by many on here to put in to context why even I think the notion of removing the ship from our badge is misguided.
 
SebastianBlue said:
I added the second bit almost immediately because I thought it necessary to explain that I my views are based on reality: what has actually happened and how it shaped what is happening now, rather than an unknowable alternative history that could have been better or worse.

It wasn’t attacking anyone, just pointing out the the stance of many that argue “the past is the past” is fundamentally flawed, as it could be applied to all manner of sordid situations—in the past, present, and future—the implications of which even those asserting it would find quite troubling. That is a fundamental flaw in logic and understanding that I cannot personally tolerate, as it leads to even more harm and exploitation. It is the excuse of criminals and despots, and it has no place in civil discourse and good faith discussion.

Nor did I say “everything the empire did was bad”.

And there is where I need to repeat what I said before: I think we’ll need to disagree on your (or my) premise, as we are going well off topic.
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I agree, let’s put it in the past and forget about it.
 
Gordyola said:
The ship comes from the Manchester Coat of Arms and symbolises the City as trading entity with the world just like the Bees symbolise the City as an industrial entity and the hard working people

Manchester at the forefront of the abolition of slavery hence the gift of the statue of Abraham Lincoln from the USA people which stands proudly in Lincoln Square Manchester

Lincoln wrote a letter on 19 January 1863 to thank the people of Manchester for their support
But Manchester’s roots in the fight against human rights abuses, and slavery in particular, predates even Lincoln’s birth.

In 1787, leading British abolitionist Thomas Clarkson gave a speech at what is now Manchester Cathedral.

After being met with hostility in Liverpool, Clarkson was given a much warmer welcome in Manchester and the city positioned itself at the vanguard of the anti-slavery movement here in the UK.

ilovemanchester.com

Why Manchester has an Abraham Lincoln statue and square

How the City of Manchester helped American president Abraham Lincoln abolish slavery
ilovemanchester.com ilovemanchester.com

Symbols of Manchester - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

FuEJuQGWYAA6qzy
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Good knowledge right there.
 
SebastianBlue said:
Being both Spanish and English, I have a unique insight in to that comparison: both countries have much to atone for. ;-)
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I know you are which is why I mentioned it :)

I am all in in favour of studying history, good and bad, as long as it is placed firmly in a historical context. That is the part that is most often missing.

But yes, let's leave it here. Not really a football debate. Fucking Guardian. ;)
 
halfcenturyup said:
I suppose we could consider if what the British did in building their empire was any better or worse than, say, the Spanish at the same time, to put the developments into a context.

Anyway, personally I don't feel any guilt about what happened in building the British Empire, any more than I feel hostility to Scandinavians, whose ancestors raped and pillaged in their conquest of Northern England. It's all just history to me.
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Has Erling Haaland and his dad apologised for this yet?
If not I'm burning my shirt with his name on the back and no celebrating any of his goals.
 
Barely an hour of a day passes without a news item telling people that something is discriminatory in one way or another. Thought police at work.
 
halfcenturyup said:
I know you are which is why I mentioned it :)

I am all in in favour of studying history, good and bad, as long as it is placed firmly in a historical context. That is the part that is most often missing.

But yes, let's leave it here. Not really a football debate. Fucking Guardian. ;)
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Yeah, I thought that might be the case, so wanted to make sure you knew both sides of my ancestry were bastards. ;-)

And I agree. My larger point was actually about putting history in to context of today and not ignoring how what has come before has shaped the present and will shape the future, like it has and is doing in Sudan today. We can’t fully understand the origins of these types of conflicts or the rampant exploitation of people around the globe that underpins Western wealth and our way of life (there is no such thing as “cheap” goods and services—someone, somewhere is paying for it) without working to understand what we did in the past to contribute to it.

Of course we have different ethical standards today than in centuries past, but that doesn’t excuse our actions then as ok—or mean they don’t impact the present—any more than a murderer excusing their crimes by saying they were “a different person” when they committed them years ago.

Mine was an argument for realism and accountability, rather than delusional (and dangerous) nostalgia or denial of history that has taken hold in many quarters today.

If anything, it was an argument against red Dipper philosophy, one of the main proponents of revisionist denialism! ;-)

May the ship remain now and forever as a reminder of where we have come from and where we are going.
 
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