Our Badge

SebastianBlue said:
Yeah, I thought that might be the case, so wanted to make sure you knew both sides of my ancestry were bastards. ;-)

And I agree. My larger point was actually about putting history in to context of today and not ignoring how what has come before has shaped the present and will shape the future, like it has and is doing in Sudan today. We can’t fully understand the origins of these types of conflicts or the rampant exploitation of people around the globe that underpins Western wealth and our way of life (there is no such thing as “cheap” goods and services—someone, somewhere is paying for it) without working to understand what we did in the past to contribute to it.

Of course we have different ethical standards today than in centuries past, but that doesn’t excuse our actions then as ok—or mean they don’t impact the present—any more than a murderer excusing their crimes by saying they were “a different person” when they committed them years ago.

Mine was an argument for realism and accountability, rather than delusional (and dangerous) nostalgia or denial of history that has taken hold in many quarters today.

If anything, it was an argument against red Dipper philosophy, one of the main proponents of revisionist denialism! ;-)

May the ship remain now and forever as a reminder of where we have come from and where we are going.
Click to expand...
For one stop saying our, it was other people are who are a long time dead.

The murderer analogy is laughable because they actually did it. We literally are different people who didn't. Bonkers.
 
hilts said:
For one stop saying our, it was other people are who are a long time dead.

The murderer analogy is laughable because they actually did it. We literally are different people who didn't. Bonkers.
Click to expand...
The murderer analogy applies as we are collectively partly responsible for quite bit of suffering around the world today.

Just do a bit of research about how you are able to have (and afford) the technology you are using to reply to my post, as but one of thousands of examples.

Anyway, I keep trying to stop debating this more to avoid having all of my (and your) posts vanish in the night.

So, again, I’ll say we’ll just have to agree to disagree.
 
SebastianBlue said:
The murderer analogy applies as we are collectively partly responsible for quite bit of suffering around the world today.

Just do a bit of research about how you are able to have (and afford) the technology you are using to reply to my post.
Click to expand...
You are doing it again but instead of our it's now we. I ain't responsible for anything but my own actions. Not a difficult idea to grasp tbh.
 
hilts said:
You are doing it again but instead of our it's now we. I ain't responsible for anything but my own actions. Not a difficult idea to grasp tbh.
Click to expand...
Agreed. Hence why I said research how you are able to have (and afford) the technology you are using to reply to me. Your actions include your decisions to consume and, in turn, support the (at times horrific) exploitation of people around the world (much of it directly as a result of our empire building in the past) that allows you to live the way you do.

As you say, it’s not a difficult idea to grasp.
 
bobom said:
I listen to this podcast, Empire, and it was brilliant. First season about the British in India, the second about the Ottoman empire. A really fascinating and fair-minded discussion.

But what was amazing to me was how much (of the British in India, at least) was unknown to me, and is certainly never taught in schools. And I'm very interested in history... But as a country we simply do not know the facts about our history.

Needing to address that shouldn't be controversial and is quite different from making simplistic judgments about monuments/symbols etc. It's not about blaming anyone in the present, or trying to make people feel guilty, a country should simply know its history, and most don't make an effort to do so beyond really simplistic stories.
Click to expand...
“As a country we simply do not know the facts about our history”?

How do you quantify when ‘a country’ knows or does not know enough?

What is ‘enough’?

It sounds more like you have an opinion of ‘the people’ and think on balance that they’re not intelligent enough to remember being told how bad Britain behaved, I certainly was back in the seventies. I wasn’t given the gory details at seven years of age of course but remember the drawings of slave ships and even at such a young age recall figuring out how awful that was. That opinion has only got worse. I go to museums all the time, watch documentaries, discuss with family about what it must have been like during those times and nobody (parents, kids, siblings) ever display pride in what we or other nations did as an empire to other people. Maybe others choose to ignore the past but going off the popularity of museums, exhibitions, books and documentaries we have, I think the British have a huge interest in history.

But there’s more to learn, always. Like my great great grandmother who emigrated from Ireland to find work in the cotton mills of Accrington and who had many descendants who toiled in the same industry to feed their families, right up to my own generation (but likely no more), stories of people getting killed or maimed by dangerous machinery, of walking 3 or 4 hrs to and from work to their shifts and such. And of the millions in Manchester and Lancashire who did the same. That history I am proud of.

And now somebody wants to taint our region’s history because of a misunderstanding of a drawing of a ship.

They can do one.
 
SebastianBlue said:
Agreed. Hence why I said research how you are able to have (and afford) the technology you are using to reply to me. Your actions include your decisions to consume and, in turn, support the (at times horrific) exploitation of people around the world (much of it directly as a result of our empire building in the past) that allows you to live the way you do.

As you say, it’s not a difficult idea to grasp.
Click to expand...
I didn't build any empires, yet again not difficult to grasp. So why don't you practice what you preach and stop using your tainted technology and leave the rest of us alone.

Maybe wander shoeless around the world apologising for both yourself and every other fucker:-)
 
hilts said:
I didn't build any empires, yet again not difficult to grasp. So why don't you practice what you preach and stop using your tainted technology and leave the rest of us alone.

Maybe wander shoeless around the world apologising for both yourself and every other fucker:-)
Click to expand...
So you aren’t responsible for your actions, then?
 
SebastianBlue said:
So you aren’t responsible for your actions, then?
Click to expand...
No you claimed people are for using technology. I was using your argument against you not agreeing with the notion.
I think we should end it here because whether you are right or wrong your ability to comprehend posts is really poor.
 
hilts said:
No you claimed people are for using technology. I was using your argument against you not agreeing with the notion.
I think we should end it here because whether you are right or wrong your ability to comprehend posts is really poor.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately, I don’t think I am the one that is not comprehending posts, especially as I didn’t claim “people were for using technology”. I am not sure you are actually reading my replies at this point.

By the way, I do try to mitigate my contribution to the suffering of others around the world by doing my best to buy as much as I can second-hand and new products sourced via fair trade and non-exploitation certified supply chains. And I advocate against (and, in this case, highlight) the exploitation of billions that is necessary to sustain our western lifestyle (that you seemingly dismiss as not your problem).

I am not perfect—have never claimed I am—but at least I am aware and care about how I am contributing to human suffering, even if I cannot stop all of it, and try to take responsibility for my actions and decisions. I don’t bury my head in the sand so I don’t see how my choices harm others.

This post (and our conversation) will likely now get removed) so I will just end it by saying we disagree but we are still both blues and we’re ultimately on the same side of the badge issue (I think getting rid of the ship is a stupid idea).
 
Last edited:
SebastianBlue said:
There, I fixed the Bluemoon logo.

@Ric you can use this for free.


ABE7-FC07-2-F8-E-41-F5-B7-AE-E51-B3-C638-EE7.jpg
Click to expand...
Just stop...

Where's my orange powder?!
 
SebastianBlue said:
Unfortunately, I don’t think I am the one that is not comprehending posts, especially as I didn’t claim “people were for using technology”. I am not sure you are actually reading my replies at this point.

By the way, I do try to mitigate my contribution to the suffering of others around the world by doing my best to buy as much as I can second-hand and new products sourced via fair trade and non-exploitation certified supply chains. And I advocate (and, in this case, highlight) the exploitation of billions that is necessary to sustain our western lifestyle (that you seemingly dismiss as not your problem).

I am not perfect—have never claimed I am—but at least I am aware and care about how I am contributing to human suffering, even I cannot stop all of it, and try to take responsibility for my actions and decisions. I don’t bury my head in the sand so I don’t see how my choices harm others.

This post (and our conversation) will likely now get removed) so I will just end it by saying we disagree but we are still both blues and we’re ultimately on the same side of the badge issue (I think getting rid of the ship is a stupid idea).
Click to expand...
I actually said we should leave it there but you didn't so sorry you obviously don't comprehend posts. Now off you pop and well done for your small pain free failed contribution at helping the down trodden.
 
hilts said:
I actually said we should leave it there but you didn't so sorry you obviously don't comprehend posts. Now off you pop and well done for your small pain free failed contribution at helping the down trodden.
Click to expand...
Ok, off you go and well done acting like a dipper.
 
SebastianBlue said:
…it was a joke.

Edit: sorry, see you were joking, too. Haha. I am a bit wound up from the other debate.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't get wound up by this debate. The ship sailed long ago.

From my blog at https://acton28.blog/2023/04/22/shipahoy/

Dear Manchester, put your money where your mouth is, this slavery malarkey has to end. End of. Peace and love, Abe Lincoln (P.S. United don’t exist as a club yet, but they’ll probably worship the devil).

The above letter is a paraphrased example. Like much of the world Manchester was wearing the latest clothing of the time around that time. Gucci? Not born. Cotton? Everywhere. The bustling smog of Manchester coated moths, as much as provided clothing to men and women alike. Transgenders were around but less represented. It was, of course, different times. Cash was made. Lots of it.

Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels had met in Manchester a few years earlier and released their Waterstones best seller The Condition of the Working Class in England. Jack Reacher novels were nowhere to be seen.

Turn-und Sportverein München von 1860 hadn’t even started kicking a football until 1899. Die Blauen had other sports, and all could have worn cotton garments made in Lancashire. Those kits wouldn’t have featured cotton picked by slaves in the U.S. of A. No. No way. Lancastrian workers had principles. Rather than make a quick Queen Victoria penny, cotton mill workers took a stand. Southern b****ds from U.S.of A. were attacking their northern kin and union. The Confederacy could no longer count on cash from much of the north west of England. Unlike England’s Liverpool, where Confederate flags flew proudly. As some households went hungry, more than half of the mills and looms lay silent.


"I know and deeply deplore the sufferings which the working-men of Manchester, and in all Europe, are called to endure in this crisis” – letter: To the Working-men of Manchester, Abraham Lincoln.

Manchester’s Manchester Guardian opposed the blockades. It wanted to put food back on the people’s table. Yet, workers gathered in the Free Trade Hall stuck two fingers up at a proposal to drop the blockade. They backed Abraham Lincoln and his northern union. Starvation and destitution followed. A tad like how the prices of tomatoes have been on the rise after the U.K. backed the Ukraine, whilst simultaneously telling Europe to go away. As the army read the riot act, and Lincoln (the man, not the city) earned himself a future statue in Manchester, praising ”sublime Christian heroism”. Ships full of provisions were also sent, which was a relief for many in Manchester. Within two years slavery was added to the U.S. Constitution and Manchester’s mills were back pumping crap into the air, allowing families to feed themselves once again.

Abraham Lincoln’s fate wasn’t so pleasant and before he had chance to visit Manchester, he was gunned down. This process has been repeated a few times since and seems integral to U.S. culture. So, when The Guardian, The Daily Mail, etc. manipulate headlines to flag Manchester City, and even MUFC’s crest as being a symbol of slavery, they need to dig into their research skills and work on their journalistic talents before blindly printing misinformation. Even the Manchester Evening News and MUFC’s historian had the decency to highlight the city’s backing of the abolitionist movement. The Manchester Guardian, founder, John Edward Taylor had partnerships with slavers and their companies. History is littered with profits being made over humanity. Let’s learn from it. We’re better for it. We can’t hide our history!

Man U added their ship to a badge in 1902. City used Manchester’s heraldic design from 1894 to 1960. The ship on both is that of a merchant ship to symbolise the city’s link to the Manchester Ship Canal. The Guardian’s writer connects the ship to black history in an insulting an incorrect way. History matters. Get it right. Stop trying to revise history and change a country’s shame based on a misplaced reckoning.

The Guardian writer Simon Hattenstone even suggested the bee of Manchester’s industry replaces the ship. If he had been a tad more industrial in his research and knowledge, he may have published a more compelling argument. Instead, he created a woke debate and accidentally made The Sun look like a paper of good response. And to agree with Man Utd historian J.P. Neill, I close with this quote: “’Not only did the club badges long post-date the abolition of slavery, the clubs themselves were only founded decades after slavery was ended.”
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Unread Posts

Don't have an account? Register now and see fewer ads!

SIGN UP
Back
Top