Middle East Conflict

[Ducado]

If it really is Hamas who march hopefully it will be the police giving the kickings out not Joe Public.

Other than that it's just crap social media posts.

It's a poor attempt to start a culture war,

As an aside why are the far right so obsessed with the the armed forces and particularly vetrons, my grandfather and his brothers (who I never knew) came back from the first world war with very left wing attitudes. they and many WW1 veterans refused to take part in any remembrance activities they saw war for what it was

 

[kaz7]

Israel have gone over the top with its response - but only 9,000 or so dead (HAMAS figures) with the amount of ordinance the IDF have dropped over the last 27 days, it is incredibly low. And no I won't fuck off.
The initial response to HAMAS murders (around 9 times less but the equivalent of around 10,5000 dead and 27,000 injutrd in this country) was none existent in sections of our society. Some sections even cheered HAMAS on. There is, I'm afraid, only one explanation for that.

"Only"9000 dead , phew only that low, i echo another poster, fuck off with that shit

 

[mexico1970]

It's a poor attempt to start a culture war,

As an aside why are the far right so obsessed with the the armed forces and particularly vetrons, my grandfather and his brothers (who I never knew) came back from the first world war with very left wing attitudes. they and many WW1 veterans refused to take part in any remembrance activities they saw war for what it was

I don't try to understand social media it's a basket case from top to bottom. What I didn't expect is a previous home secretary to be on the front line spreading shit.

Saying that, if there is any trouble I hope the police don't fanny about and sort it.

 

[robbieh]

Firstly, Germans wouldn't stress the 'guilt' for horrors of their ancestors (how can I be guilty today?) but the responsibility for the presence and the future.

If the bold part - such a stupid generalization, pouring more oil into the fire - is what you found in his speech I have to assume you can't listen or read properly. Or you don't want to...

Accusing of all people Habeck of racism is insane, or quite amusing. You picked the completely wrong one here.

The bold part was implied rather than stated. Like everyone who drones on about Hamas while at the same time denying that Israel has any responsibility for the mess it finds itself in.
I agree with you re the guilt part. Obviously modern day Germans bear no responsibility for what happened and I should have been clearer.

Generally speaking I found the guy way more articulate and nuanced than the stuff being peddled by the leadership of other western countries.

 

[halfcenturyup]

I know that people on this forum have great confidence in democracy.
I would like to remind friends living in democratic countries that： your democracy is very dangerous because your people lack understanding of distant countries, and your democratic media is manipulating your public opinion. Yes, you can say 'even if the media is lying, we still have the freedom to choose whether to believe', but I can tell you that，unfortunately, your choice results are not very optimistic.

Interesting opinion. One which I have a degree of sympathy with.

Democracy in any place at any time isn't always the answer. Don't get me wrong, democracy is the best form of government when you have a largely homogenous population, (reasonably) well -educated and able to understand the various issues at play (this plays into your press comments). That's a pretty small demographic actually.

 

[BlueAnorak]

"Only"9000 dead , phew only that low, i echo another poster, fuck off with that shit

With Respect, but what but what do you expect in a war? Which HAMAS Started BTW. They didn't give a shit about their own yet you expect Isreal to be ultra careful?
Now I think Israel has been well over the top in a good few raids - but it is war.

 

[kaz7]

With Respect, but what but what do you expect in a war? Which HAMAS Started BTW. They didn't give a shit about their own yet you expect Isreal to be ultra careful?
Now I think Isreal has been well over the top in a good few raids - but it is war.

We get which side you are on, you emersed yourself in the covid years and in the ukraine war and you have, imo, become desentised to what a person dying is , babies and kids dont seem to bother you anymore

 

[BlueAnorak]

Binkden has clearly gone to Israel to read them the riot act.

Biden officials alarmed by soaring Palestinian death toll in Gaza

Administration officials are worried that the president’s quick support for Israel after Hamas’ attack could backfire.

www.nbcnews.com

The President should have done it 3 weeks ago!!!
HAMAS need to be eradicated but Isreal needs to be do it in a measured manner without anger.

 

[robbieh]

With Respect, but what but what do you expect in a war? Which HAMAS Started BTW. They didn't give a shit about their own yet you expect Isreal to be ultra careful?
Now I think Isreal has been well over the top in a good few raids - but it is war.

You really believe all the sound bites you hear.
Hamas may have started this round of Israeli vengeance. They themselves may well say the continuous displacement, incarceration and murder of Palestinians in the west bank as reasons for their revenge.
The war did not start on the 7th of October. It's been ongoing for 70 plus years with far more Palestinian victims than Israelis.

 

[BlueAnorak]

We get which side you are on, you emersed yourself in the covid years and in the ukraine war and you have, imo, become desentised to what a person dying is , babies and kids dont seem to bother you anymore

It does bother me, but Hamas are intent on genocide of the WHOLE Jewish population of Palestine.
I find it incredible that people can't see that, I really do.

 

[robbieh]

It does bother me, but Hamas are intent on genocide of the WHOLE Jewish population of Palestine.
I find it incredible that people can't see that, I really do.

How many times do you have to be told that even if you don't believe their latest document, they are completely ill equipped to achieve the eradication of Jews in Israel.
As we can see there is only one side who possess overwhelming force.

 

[St.Pauli support]

The bold part was implied rather than stated. Like everyone who drones on about Hamas while at the same time denying that Israel has any responsibility for the mess it finds itself in.
I agree with you re the guilt part. Obviously modern day Germans bear no responsibility for what happened and I should have been clearer.

Generally speaking I found the guy way more articulate and nuanced than the stuff being peddled by the leadership of other western countries.

I mainly agree, but I'm sure Mr Habeck - like most non-Muslim Germans - does very well see Israel's responsibility for the development over the last decades esp. by the aggressive West Bank settling policy. That topic is being addressed only on diplomatic level to Israel very directly (like US or UK surely do), but not in the public (maybe doing it that way was always being wrong and still is).

The video was mainly addressed to people in Germany to paint the red lines what behavior is acceptable and what is not. And yes, the clarification was bitterly needed. Same elsewhere.

Actually what we really need is a mass demonstration with moderate people from BOTH sides to show we are the vast majority who since decades have understood that every human has a right for a life in peace, security and dignity. That war doesn't solve anything and only wastes resources and lives. That times of imperialism and colonialism should have been overcome and nations can live together in peaceful coexistence even if they believe in a different God (whatever that might be..). It really isn't that difficult.

 

[robbieh]

I mainly agree, but I'm sure Mr Habeck - like most non-Muslim Germans - does very well see Israel's responsibility for the development over the last decades esp. by the aggressive West Bank settling policy. That topic is being addressed only on diplomatic level to Israel very directly (like US or UK surely do), but not in the public (maybe doing it that way was always being wrong and still is).

The video was mainly addressed to people in Germany to paint the red lines what behavior is acceptable and what is not. And yes, the clarification was bitterly needed. Same elsewhere.

Actually what we really need is a mass demonstration with moderate people from BOTH sides to show we are the vast majority who since decades have understood that every human has a right for a life in peace, security and dignity. That war doesn't solve anything and only wastes resources and lives. That times of imperialism and colonialism should have been overcome and nations can live together in peaceful coexistence even if they believe in a different God (whatever that might be..). It really isn't that difficult.

Very well put. I still hold out hope that this massive escalation in the conflict will finally bring people to their senses both in the area as well as the wider world.
Once upon a time it seemed Northern Ireland and South Africa were intractable problems.
South Africa now has blacks and whites representing them at cricket and rugby with great success.
Is it too much to hope for something similar in Israel/Palestine?

 

[Bluemoon_420]

When you say zionist, do you mean all 16 million jews on the planet (because for many, zionist is codeword for jew) or just the estimated 10 million+ jews who identify as zionist ?

Did you even think for one minute how offensive your post is to jews ?

Do you know what zionism is ?

I suggest you look it up

There is of course no one single definition of zionism, but these seem to be the commonly accepted ones

The Oxford Living Dictionaries says Zionists believe in “the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel”. The Board of Deputies of British Jews describes Zionism as “the national liberation movement of the Jewish people.” The non-Zionist left-wing Jewish group Jewdas have defined it simply as “the belief that there should be a Jewish state in Israel”.

So according to you, in your words, the underlying fact is people who believe in the above are following a racist and supremacist ideology

And what about the people in the Middle East who are opposed to zionism, i.e. opposed to the existence of any jewish state. Are they non-racist and non-supremacist ? You know, the people whose life mission is to destroy all jews.

I’ve made clear distinctions between Jews and Zionists previously, maybe not clear enough for you and not that I should keep having to repeating myself but I would be the first person to defend a Jew from anti-Semitic hate and have done on more than one occasion in the past and will continue to do so.

That doesn’t take away the fact that zionism is in mine and many millions opinion that it is a racist and settler colonial movement, which has opportunistically coopted aspects of Judaism in its attempt to justify its criminal practices of apartheid and genocide of indigenous Palestinians.

Zionism embraces aggression and expansion as an acceptable response to trauma and denounces the traditional Jewish pacifist approach of viewing hardship as divine punishment for sins.

The Israeli regime capitalises on a dynamic of violence and inequality reinforced by fear-mongering and the rewards of resource acquisition to promote a privileged ruling class at the expense of colonised Palestinian people.

Zionist strategists manipulate the past traumas Jews have endured to galvanise support for aggressive policies that disenfranchise Palestinians.

I could go on, but your definition isn’t as black and white as you would make it appear.

 

[halfcenturyup]

It does bother me, but Hamas are intent on genocide of the WHOLE Jewish population of Palestine.
I find it incredible that people can't see that, I really do.

Did you actually mean the Jewish population of Palestine?

 

[west didsblue]

I’ve made clear distinctions between Jews and Zionists previously, maybe not clear enough for you and not that I should keep having to repeating myself but I would be the first person to defend a Jew from anti-Semitic hate and have done on more than one occasion in the past and will continue to do so.

That doesn’t take away the fact that zionism is in mine and many millions opinion that it is a racist and settler colonial movement, which has opportunistically coopted aspects of Judaism in its attempt to justify its criminal practices of apartheid and genocide of indigenous Palestinians.

Zionism embraces aggression and expansion as an acceptable response to trauma and denounces the traditional Jewish pacifist approach of viewing hardship as divine punishment for sins.

The Israeli regime capitalises on a dynamic of violence and inequality reinforced by fear-mongering and the rewards of resource acquisition to promote a privileged ruling class at the expense of colonised Palestinian people.

Zionist strategists manipulate the past traumas Jews have endured to galvanise support for aggressive policies that disenfranchise Palestinians.

I could go on, but your definition isn’t as black and white as you would make it appear.

I’m afraid it’s your definition of Zionism is the one that’s open to question. Your definition covers the right wing religious settler fringe of Zionism not the generally understood definition that covers the majority.

 

[kaz7]

It does bother me, but Hamas are intent on genocide of the WHOLE Jewish population of Palestine.
I find it incredible that people can't see that, I really do.

?

 

[Dax777]

"Mission accomplished" in a month, and then a gradual recognition that nothing has changed for the better at all?

We don't know what will come of this. We'll find out though.

The present condition seemed intolerable to the Israelis. So they are attempting to change it. They may or may not succeed. Time will tell.

Like I've held from the start, I think a Hamas free Palestine is a positive for Palestinians and Isrealis alike. Granted, so is probably a Likud free Israel. But one has to be forcefully uprooted. The other can be voted out and likely will be.

There's even a conspiracy that the 10/7 attacks war might have been purposely allowed by the Loud so they could have an excuse to go to war and hold on to power. It's a horrific thought. But not one I'd put past politicians :(

No matter what happens though, Not on yahoo should be done after this.

 

[Dax777]

With Blinkin over there fighting fires that he and his boss helped start, we may see a humanitarian pause, they have certainly telegraphed it

All eyes on Nasrallahs Friday sermon, I suspect increasing American jitters about the huge amount of civilian casualties and this speech are certainly worrying the White House, also the amount of pressure they are under from allies around the world some of them are strategic allies as well

The Americans have not come across well, it’s actually been a diplomatic disaster for them, so they really need to pull a number of rabbits out of the hat

What they could do immediately is

Make further aid conditional on stopping the violence and land grabs on the West Bank

Make firm plans for a regional peace conference with all major powers including China

Shit like this happens when you have dunces for leaders

 

[blue5ter]

I’ve made clear distinctions between Jews and Zionists previously, maybe not clear enough for you and not that I should keep having to repeating myself but I would be the first person to defend a Jew from anti-Semitic hate and have done on more than one occasion in the past and will continue to do so.

That doesn’t take away the fact that zionism is in mine and many millions opinion that it is a racist and settler colonial movement, which has opportunistically coopted aspects of Judaism in its attempt to justify its criminal practices of apartheid and genocide of indigenous Palestinians.

Zionism embraces aggression and expansion as an acceptable response to trauma and denounces the traditional Jewish pacifist approach of viewing hardship as divine punishment for sins.

The Israeli regime capitalises on a dynamic of violence and inequality reinforced by fear-mongering and the rewards of resource acquisition to promote a privileged ruling class at the expense of colonised Palestinian people.

Zionist strategists manipulate the past traumas Jews have endured to galvanise support for aggressive policies that disenfranchise Palestinians.

I could go on, but your definition isn’t as black and white as you would make it appear.

All you're doing is s

I’m afraid it’s your definition of Zionism is the one that’s open to question. Your definition covers the right wing religious settler fringe of Zionism not the generally understood definition that covers the majority.

Indeed. I gave a variety of definitions of zionism that have relevance and asked which group the poster was referring to. The reply is pretty telling. Unfortunately not shocking.

There are some people who take a blanket approach to Israel's right to exist as being racist and colonial. They aren't very nice people to associate one's self with. Just as the most extremes within in any group aren't