Middle East Conflict

1,400 plus Israeli's murdered and 22,000 plus Palestinians murdered in Netanyahu's genocide.

Western governments are shamefully complicit in this for sure and have been for decades in an unequal struggle.

Neither Netanyahu's far right regime nor Hamas want a peaceful settlement. The extremists hold sway on both sides and everyone else in the middle is caught up in this, paying with lives, and physical and untold mental issues.

There is no end to this without a political solution and compromise, and there isn't any prospect of that whatsoever.
 
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No mention on here of the assassination of a senior Hezbollah commander in Lebanon? Not exactly an unprovocative move or one that will calm regional tensions.
 
Zabbasbeard said:
1,400 plus Israeli's murdered and 22,000 plus Palestinians murdered in Netanyahu's genocide.

Western governments are shamefully complicit in this for sure and have been for decades in an unequal struggle.

Neither Netanyahu's far right regime nor Hamas want a peaceful settlement. The extremists hold sway on both sides and everyone else in the middle is caught up in this, paying with lives, and physical and untold mental issues.

There is no end to this without a political solution and compromise, and there isn't any prospect of that whatsoever.
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There is always the prospect of a political settlement. All it takes is for the money to dry up. Meaning US support for Israel to be restrained and Iranian support for Hamas/ Hezbollah to be restrained. Basically, the US and Iran need to patch up some old differences and start acting responsibly.

The tragedy is that neither will take the first step. It probably needs some Arab country, maybe Qatar, to start the ball rolling.
 
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halfcenturyup said:
There is always the prospect of a political settlement. All it takes is for the money to dry up. Meaning US support for Israel to be restrained and Iranian support for Hamas/ Hezbollah to be restrained. Basically, the US and Iran need to patch up some old differences and start acting responsibly.

The tragedy is that neither will take the first step. It probably needs some Arab country, maybe Qatar, to start the ball rolling.
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If only they would take that first step but realistically is that going to happen. Tòo many vested interests politically at home on both sides and commercially in terms of arms. The voices of reason (e.g Fatah) are ignored.as extremists hold power, playing on the fear and prejudices of people they are supposed to represent.
 
halfcenturyup said:
There is always the prospect of a political settlement. All it takes is for the money to dry up. Meaning US support for Israel to be restrained and Iranian support for Hamas/ Hezbollah to be restrained. Basically, the US and Iran need to patch up some old differences and start acting responsibly.

The tragedy is that neither will take the first step. It probably needs some Arab country, maybe Qatar, to start the ball rolling.
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Your assumption would hold if Hamas has a political goal. Unfortunately, they don't. They prefer a one state solution that has no Jews.

We might not like the scenes of death and destruction on our TV screens, but this conflict will never end until one side is completely and comprehensively defeated.
Just like it took the death of more than 50m people to defeat the Nazis, many thousands more are likely going to die before this war is over unless Hamas or Israel surrender.

On a side note, Israel has dropped more ordinance in Gaza compared to those dropped by Assad in Syria. Yet, Assad bombs have killed more than 500k Syrians while around 25k are dead in Gaza to date. This is just a comparison for those keen to scream about genocide.
 
Pelegrinni said:
Your assumption would hold if Hamas has a political goal. Unfortunately, they don't. They prefer a one state solution that has no Jews.

We might not like the scenes of death and destruction on our TV screens, but this conflict will never end until one side is completely and comprehensively defeated.
Just like it took the death of more than 50m people to defeat the Nazis, many thousands more are likely going to die before this war is over unless Hamas or Israel surrender.

On a side note, Israel has dropped more ordinance in Gaza compared to those dropped by Assad in Syria. Yet, Assad bombs have killed more than 500k Syrians while around 25k are dead in Gaza to date. This is just a comparison for those keen to scream about genocide.
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What's the number you're looking at before it can be called Genocide?
 
The blue phantom said:
What's the number you're looking at before it can be called Genocide?
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I am not down playing the casualties. My focus is on the definition of the word "genocide".

Assad is deliberately targeting civilians who are protesting against his policies. Israel is fighting against Hamas who invaded their country, murdered more than a thousand citizens and took hundreds as hostage.

Millions of Germans and Japanese died during the second world war as a result of their government policies at the time. Thousands of Palestinians are getting killed today because oi their government policy. This is an unfortunate occurrence during a war and not a genocide. Real definition of genocide was what happened in places like Rwanda where hundreds of thousands of unarmed civilians were murdered primarily because of their ethnicity.
 
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Pelegrinni said:
Your assumption would hold if Hamas has a political goal. Unfortunately, they don't. They prefer a one state solution that has no Jews.

We might not like the scenes of death and destruction on our TV screens, but this conflict will never end until one side is completely and comprehensively defeated.
Just like it took the death of more than 50m people to defeat the Nazis, many thousands more are likely going to die before this war is over unless Hamas or Israel surrender.

On a side note, Israel has dropped more ordinance in Gaza compared to those dropped by Assad in Syria. Yet, Assad bombs have killed more than 500k Syrians while around 25k are dead in Gaza to date. This is just a comparison for those keen to scream about genocide.
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What Hamas wants is irrelevant if they have no Iranian weapons and money. What Israel wants likewise without US weapons and money. This whole thing is just a proxy conflict between the US and Iran. They both need to grow up. All imho, of course.

As for genocide, there are elements in the Genocide Convention that may cover what Israel are doing. What is your standing on the legal position?
 
Pelegrinni said:
Your assumption would hold if Hamas has a political goal. Unfortunately, they don't. They prefer a one state solution that has no Jews.

We might not like the scenes of death and destruction on our TV screens, but this conflict will never end until one side is completely and comprehensively defeated.
Just like it took the death of more than 50m people to defeat the Nazis, many thousands more are likely going to die before this war is over unless Hamas or Israel surrender.

On a side note, Israel has dropped more ordinance in Gaza compared to those dropped by Assad in Syria. Yet, Assad bombs have killed more than 500k Syrians while around 25k are dead in Gaza to date. This is just a comparison for those keen to scream about genocide.
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"to date"! It's taken 12 years to get to 500k dead in Syria (mostly combatants and not all from Assad bombs). It's taken the Israelis 12 weeks to kill as many civilians in Gaza as in the first year of the Syrian civil war. I'm reluctant to see how many children Israel can kill before one can scream.
 
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halfcenturyup said:
What Hamas wants is irrelevant if they have no Iranian weapons and money. What Israel wants likewise without US weapons and money. This whole thing is just a proxy conflict between the US and Iran. They both need to grow up. All imho, of course.

As for genocide, there are elements in the Genocide Convention that may cover what Israel are doing. What is your standing on the legal position?
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These are few examples of genocides that happened in recent memory:

Rohingya Muslims targeted by the military in Myanmar
Hutus and Tutsis of Rwanda
Yazidis of Iraq
Christians in Northen Nigeria

These events all have some things in common:
1) They were mainly civilians - we don't know how many Hamas fighters are among the total dead in Gaza.
2) They are not at war with the government - Hamas is the govt of Gaza and Israel formally declared war against them
3) They are unarmed - Hamas is armed
4) They are not collateral damage during a war - most civilian deaths in Gaza are collateral deaths
5) They belong to the wrong ethnic group or religion

Unless we want to change the definition of the word genocide, it is hard to conclude that what is happening in Gaza fits that definition.
 
Pelegrinni said:
These are few examples of genocides that happened in recent memory:

Rohingya Muslims targeted by the military in Myanmar
Hutus and Tutsis of Rwanda
Yazidis of Iraq
Christians in Northen Nigeria

These events all have some things in common:
1) They were mainly civilians - we don't know how many Hamas fighters are among the total dead in Gaza.
2) They are not at war with the government - Hamas is the govt of Gaza and Israel formally declared war against them
3) They are unarmed - Hamas is armed
4) They are not collateral damage during a war - most civilian deaths in Gaza are collateral deaths
5) They belong to the wrong ethnic group or religion

Unless we want to change the definition of the word genocide, it is hard to conclude that what is happening in Gaza fits that definition.
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If the Israelis are stating every building in Gaza is a target then they are targeting civilians. Are you honestly saying the IDF's only intention is to kill Hamas? You've got to be fuckin joking if you think they aren't purposely murdering ordinary Palestinians.
 
The blue phantom said:
If the Israelis are stating every building in Gaza is a target then they are targeting civilians. Are you honestly saying the IDF's only intention is to kill Hamas? You've got to be fuckin joking if you think they aren't purposely murdering ordinary Palestinians.
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In an urban environment with subterranean warfare, taking away every advantage of the enemy becomes priority.
The same strategy was applied in Grozny, Mosul and Aleppo.
When all the tunnels are blocked or rendered unusable, the battle will come to the surface where the Israelis have all the advantages.
As per your argument on targeting civilians, there are evidence the Israelis dropped leaflets asking people to move away from an area. Anyone killed after that warning becomes collateral damage and not a war crime.
Also, there are civilians killed from failed rocket launches by Hamas and Islamic Jihad. These deaths are part of the collateral damage in war.
If they purposefully targeted civilians like you alluded to, then the IDF are the most incompetent considering the amount of bombs dropped so far in Gaza.
 
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The blue phantom said:
If the Israelis are stating every building in Gaza is a target then they are targeting civilians. Are you honestly saying the IDF's only intention is to kill Hamas? You've got to be fuckin joking if you think they aren't purposely murdering ordinary Palestinians.
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It doesn't matter. He is using an anecdotal definition of genocide rather than the definition of genocide in the Genocide Convention.

Personally, I think some of the tactics used could have a genocidal element, but the problem at the ICJ will be proving intent, which is necessary for a conviction for genocide if I understand it correctly. Despite several Israeli government officials and diplomats shooting the government in the foot regularly, I doubt there will be sufficient proof of intent.
Still interesting to see what happens, though.
 
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