Middle East Conflict

[Don Karleone]

 

[Palerider]

Lets add failure to spot my sarcasm to the list of things you are struggling to grasp. I went on to say that it really isn't that difficult. The international position is that all territory that Israel has annexed post June 1967 is *illegally occupied*. It is only disputed by the occupiers and their supporters.

Based on those 1967 borders absolutely but we are dealing with reality here. What is the biggest hindrance to a just settlement? Is it words spoken by politicians and written on charters or 57 years of cold hard facts on the ground?
How do you make a viable state out of this? If was a group of islands separated by water sure .... but it isn't.

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I've been accused of taking answers out of context a couple of times. So could you just answer the below question a little more clearly please. Basically, it's "Do you believe in a two state solution". I'm not asking about what borders you or I would accept as that is irrelevent and just clouds the issue.

Also, I'll put out my stance on where I stand and you (and other posters if they wish) can tell me where you differ (if at all).

a) Israel should be recognised by all parties as a country/state with their own borders which they themselves respect and all other parties respect.

b) Palestine should be recognised by all parties as a country/state with their own borders which they themselves respect and all other parties respect.

That's what I believe. Do you agree or have some other belief?

 

[Palerider]

If we concentrate on my point 1 rather than point 2 (to avoid getting bogged down). Is there really much difference between your 'unbiased' assertion that it is 'complicated' to my 'unbiased' assertion that there is "no correct answer'?

Also, I'll put out my stance on where I stand and you (and other posters if they wish) can tell me where you differ (if at all).

a) Israel should be recognised by all parties as a country/state with their own borders which they themselves respect and all other parties respect.

b) Palestine should be recognised by all parties as a country/state with their own borders which they themselves respect and all other parties respect.

That's what I believe. Do you agree or have some other belief?

Israel does.

They don't agree on respecting their own borders, so that's a great start to your unbiased wishlist.

You have not answered my question and done that politician thing where they answer the question they wished had been asked!

Do you believe in a two state solution? Yes or No.

 

[Postman Pep]

I've been accused of taking answers out of context a couple of times. So could you just answer the below question a little more clearly please. Basically, it's "Do you believe in a two state solution". I'm not asking about what borders you or I would accept as that is irrelevent and just clouds the issue.

I don't believe a two state solution is possible because of the reality on the ground, i.e borders. If you think talking about borders is irrelevant or me clouding the issue there is nothing else to say besides this exchange has run it's course.

 

[Postman Pep]

Back to the grim reality

 

[Postman Pep]

Some of the stories coming out of Al Shifa are horrific.... yet

 

[Palerider]

I don't believe a two state solution is possible because of the reality on the ground, i.e borders. If you think talking about borders is irrelevant or me clouding the issue there is nothing else to say besides this exchange has run it's course.

Thank you very much, I appreciate your honesty. I agree, little common ground, end of conversation.

 

[Vic]

Back to the grim reality

Other countries will initiate it for them.

Still, that is a vicious little trick against holding people to account for war crimes.

 

[Vic]

Thank you very much, I appreciate your honesty. I agree, little common ground, end of conversation.

Little common ground is what happens when you create an apartheid state.

 

[super_city_si]

Other countries will initiate it for them.

Still, that is a vicious little trick against holding people to account for war crimes.

Really is. The human rights abuse is horrific.

 

[domalino]

If we concentrate on my point 1 rather than point 2 (to avoid getting bogged down). Is there really much difference between your 'unbiased' assertion that it is 'complicated' to my 'unbiased' assertion that there is "no correct answer'?

Also, I'll put out my stance on where I stand and you (and other posters if they wish) can tell me where you differ (if at all).

a) Israel should be recognised by all parties as a country/state with their own borders which they themselves respect and all other parties respect.

b) Palestine should be recognised by all parties as a country/state with their own borders which they themselves respect and all other parties respect.

That's what I believe. Do you agree or have some other belief?

You can’t have those beliefs and post the defences of Israel that you have done over this past week.

Israel’s prime minister, cabinet and parliament all openly and on record disagree with (b). Israel has ruled out establishing a Palestinian state.

Your stated beliefs and Israel’s stated aims are in conflict, and yet you’ve incessantly defended Israeli policy.

So I guess they aren’t particularly heartfelt beliefs.

 

[Palerider]

You can’t have those beliefs and post the defences of Israel that you have done over this past week.

Israel’s prime minister, cabinet and parliament all openly and on record disagree with (b). Israel has ruled out establishing a Palestinian state.

Your stated beliefs and Israel’s stated aims are in conflict, and yet you’ve incessantly defended Israeli policy.

So I guess they aren’t particularly heartfelt beliefs.

Why would I lie?

I don't know any Palestinians and never been there.
I don't know any Israelis and never been there.

I think the diplomats of the UK and the USA have called it perfectly. Israel was attacked. In the certainty that the Palestinians were never able or minded to hand over the perpetrators of that attack then every right minded person agreed that the Israelis were entitled to do do something about Hamas themselves. Hamas had 'apparently' (but it does look to be true) spent the Palestinians money on building tunnels and hideouts many in hospitals, schools etc. The Israelis were warned that fighting a "Stalingrad" type war would cost thousands of lives on both sides. The reality is that thousands of Palestinian lives have been lost but nowhere near that many Israeli lives (which pisses off the Palestinian supporters no end). We have now reached the stage where the Israelis have effectively 'won' and the UK and USA diplomats are calling on Israel to stop. I agree with the UK and USA diplomats, it's effectively over, stop.

Israel is a democratic country and it's government and attitude to a two state solution will change all the time. There is plenty of unbiased reading on the internet indicating that Israel is open to a two state solution.

My stated beliefs seem to be in line with most fair minded Israelis and Palestinians. Negotiate a two state solution and fucking stick to it. It is not in line with hard line one state Israelis or Palestinians.

Have I gone over the top with some of my comments? Almost certainly, sometimes I post in temper. You started a response to me the other day with something like 'it's not a shit show, it's fucking genocide'. That is also over the top.

In conclusion, my a) and b) options are my heartfelt beliefs and always have been.

Oh, and on a personal level, just to clear up our deleted conversation last week. I was calling out your comment not you personally. I categorically do NOT think you are the word we cannot speak but that does not mean that you (or I) do not occasionally, overstep the mark (in my view!).

 

[domalino]

My stated beliefs seem to be in line with most fair minded Israelis and Palestinians. Negotiate a two state solution and fucking stick to it. It is not in line with hard line one state Israelis or Palestinians.

Do I have to post all of the news clippings of Netenyahu and Israeli politicians and the parliament ruling out a 2 state solution again? We're not talking about fringe extremists, we're talking about the Prime Minister and parliament.

Your claimed beliefs do not align with the regime you blindly defend. It's that simple.

And I don't care for your mealy mouthed explanation for false accusations of antisemitism. There was nothing anyone could interpret as anti-semitic in that comment and you know that as well as the half dozen posters who called you out for bullshit.

 

[KS55]

You can’t have those beliefs and post the defences of Israel that you have done over this past week.

Israel’s prime minister, cabinet and parliament all openly and on record disagree with (b). Israel has ruled out establishing a Palestinian state.

Your stated beliefs and Israel’s stated aims are in conflict, and yet you’ve incessantly defended Israeli policy.

So I guess they aren’t particularly heartfelt beliefs.

Ouch!

 

[BerkshireBlue]

You have not answered my question and done that politician thing where they answer the question they wished had been asked!

Do you believe in a two state solution? Yes or No.

What a weird question to ask. It's like asking do you believe in global peace, of course they do it's just not going to happen as at least one country doesn't. In this case that one country is Israel with it's illegal land grabbing and disrespecting borders

 

[Palerider]

Do we have to post all of the news clippings of Netenyahu and Israeli politicians and the parliament ruling out a 2 state solution again? We're not talking about fringe extremists, we're talking about the Prime Minister and parliament.

Your claimed beliefs do not align with the regime you blindly defend.

And I don't care for your mealy mouthed explanation for false accusations of antisemitism. There was nothing anyone could interpret as anti-semitic in that comment and you know that as well as the half dozen posters who called you out for bullshit.

But surely Netanyahu will not be Prime Minister forever? That's how democracy work's. Are you conflating Netanyahu's views with those of all Israelis?

Do you blame all Russians for Putin?
All Americans for Trump?
All Germans for Hitler?
All Israelis for Netanyahu?

I don't blindly defend them. I think you will agree that this is very much a Pro Palestine forum and as such it lacks balance. It's a bit like the Daily Mail. Pick a subject and demonise them with no debate offering any counter argument. I and others have tried to offer a much needed counter balance. Yes, Palestinian lives matter but no more so than Jewish lives.

 

[Palerider]

What a weird question to ask. It's like asking do you believe in global peace, of course they do it's just not going to happen as at least one country doesn't. In this case that one country is Israel with it's illegal land grabbing and disrespecting borders

I must admit that I thought everyone believed in a two state solution but I honestly do not think they do! Which is why I asked the question. Everyone keeps saying, it's Israels fault but again just to bring balance, from the internet

"In 2017's revised Hamas charter, they claimed to accept the idea of a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders, but without recognising the statehood of Israel, referring to it as "the Zionist entity", which would not constitute a two-state solution."

So yes, it's all Israel's fault if you ignore the Palestinians fault! So maybe, just maybe, they are both at fault?

 

[MellowJoe]

They're both to blame, I wish they'd just shake hands now

 

[Don Karleone]

 

[Blue and true]

Hopefully the first step in the right direction.