The Labour Government

[hcblue95]

In short get some of the unethical false economically inactive lazy bastads back in work.

No offence but aren't you quite overweight? You don't see any hypocrisy in that?

 

[Kompany Car]

Whilst I agree with what you say, it needs to be recognised that many newly qualified doctors emigrate to Australia or Canada due to higher pay and better working conditions, and any pay rise needs to address this retention issue. Although I haven’t seen any stats on this, all three of my children knew several medics at uni and many have emigrated within a year or two of qualifying.

There's certainly no shortage of demand for people wanting to undertake medical degrees, they are oversubscribed with an acceptance rate of only 10% as the number of places are capped.

The issue of medical staff emigrating for higher wages does need to be addressed. According to fullfact.org its around 19%. The cost of training a doctor appears to be around 175k to 200k post graduation (a lower end estimate), maybe the approach should be to tie the doctor into an agreement which mandates them to pay back their training fees should they leave the UK within a particular time frame.

This approach is very common in the private sector for apprenticeships and graduates wanting to do further study whilst working. Its also in line with those who train to be pilots in the RAF who have to sign up to 12 yrs service.

At least by doing that the costs are recouped allowing training of other doctors coming through the system.

I know this was previously mooted by Hunt (who I'm by no means a fan of), but the BMA were up in arms about it. Maybe that needs to be part of the bargaining around the pay settlement they want.

 

[Blue Maverick]

RPI is certainly not used for pay awards in the private sector, everything is referenced to CPI and what the market can tolerate, based upon an acceptable level of staff turnover and shareholder expectations.

There are a small subset of private sector pensions that are linked to RPI as there are virtually no private sector companies that offer final salary pensions. The vast majority, certainly those since the early 2000s where the last few companies were offering final salary schemes, are all capped at the lesser of RPI or 2.5%, there are a number of much older pensions with limited price indexation to a maximum of 5%.

Mortgage rates for RPI are only part of the list, its a very home owner focussed "basket of goods" they use by comparison to CPI all of which have increased above other goods and services.

As I said I have no issue with junior doctors or anyone for that matter getting decent pay rises but it needs to be tempered with realism.

If you were someone on minimum wage or just above, seeing a junior doctor 5 years out of Uni on 65k demanding a 35% pay rise its a bit galling. Across most sectors peoples pay has stagnated, many companies have had a policy of those earning higher wages getting much smaller pay increases which are well below the cost of living and trying to give a bit more to those on lower salaries who are disproportionately affected due to their lower levels of disposable income.

The lower end we’re getting proportionally better pay rises compared to higher earners (whatever that means) but I’d argue you are paid for what you know etc, when you see some diversity or HR person on a junior doctors wage you have to question that.

 

[kaz7]

Loving having grown ups in charge , everything they are saying is measured, sensible and gimmick free , breath of fresh air

 

[Manc in London]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-67876164

They actually had a 2% pay rise in 22/23 and 8.8% in 23/24 but appear to want another 35% to correct for lower than average pay growth.

I understand where they are coming from. The junior doctors pay is much lower than it should be.

On a related topic, we should be paying off study fees of doctors and nurses after a number of years of continuous service in the NHS. It's odd that we charge people to take up such key roles. This would certainly help with recruitment and retention, and therefore the ability of the NHS to treat a higher number of people.

 

[Manc in London]

The lower end we’re getting proportionally better pay rises compared to higher earners (whatever that means) but I’d argue you are paid for what you know etc, when you see some diversity or HR person on a junior doctors wage you have to question that.

A HR manager or business partner in the NHS will earn much more than a Junior Doctor. You are looking at as much as 40% more.

There are performance management staff in Trusts, with no managerial responsibilities or budget, who earn as much, if not more than Junior Doctors. It just doesn't make any sense why Doctors are paid so low.

 

[Kompany Car]

I’d argue you are paid for what you know

Never been the case unfortunately.

 

[Kompany Car]

A HR manager or business partner in the NHS will earn much more than a Junior Doctor. You are looking at as much as 40% more.

There are performance management staff in Trusts, with no managerial responsibilities or budget, who earn as much, if not more than Junior Doctors. It just doesn't make any sense why Doctors are paid so low.

Looking at it the wrong way, it doesn't make sense why the other roles are paid so highly.

 

[BrianW]

Looking at it the wrong way, it doesn't make sense why the other roles are paid so highly.

Maybe because it's the market rate.

Having said that, if you consistently underpay someone, the chances are that sooner or later they will leave, and doctors and nurses have opportunities in Australia, to name but one place.

My view is it is very bad policy to treat your staff like shit, as it costs fortunes to replace them. It's not like you can just walk down to the corner and find a brain surgeon under a lamppost, desperate for work at any salary.

 

[MikeF]

What I can’t get my head round is how the unions have just let them accept minuscule increases over the last however many years. Then to come and expect 35% increase just seems odd to me.

 

[Pedestrian]

Whatever they settle for will set the benchmark for the already delayed pay increase talks for this year.
Newly qualified doctors are leaving uni with exorbitant amounts of debt. It would be difficult to then try and retain them with a threat of financial punishment.
An easier solution would be to train all healthcare workers for free with a 5 year nhs contract at the end. If that’s not adhered to then a financial penalty or de-registration could be an option.
It’s not just newly qualified that are leaving for Oz/Canada, plenty of consultant qualified registrars can’t get positions and are taking their vast experience away.
How labour settle the junior doctors dispute will be an excellent insight into how they plan to manage the nhs in the future.

 

[Pedestrian]

What I can’t get my head round is how the unions have just let them accept minuscule increases over the last however many years. Then to come and expect 35% increase just seems odd to me.

The unions negotiating the pay deals are an issue themselves. The RCN often refuse to join with the AHP unions because they have a desire to remove nurses from agenda for change. The RCN want to negotiate nurses pay separately from the other professions. Similar to the doctors. This in itself creates a weaker negotiating position for a majority of nhs staff. The junior doctors strike has been largely ineffective and imo has lost its fire and general support. I think they should have called off the last strike pending the upcoming election. They got very little media attention and there were zero doctors on the picket line at my trust on any of the days. On a side note. My department runs better with no junior doctors. The out patient fracture/plastics/burns clinic were 50% empty in the days/week following the strikes as the seniors were making decisions on the shop floor as opposed to days later. Obviously I realise that the juniors are necessary to become the future seniors but interesting non the less.

 

[Kompany Car]

I understand where they are coming from. The junior doctors pay is much lower than it should be.

On a related topic, we should be paying off study fees of doctors and nurses after a number of years of continuous service in the NHS. It's odd that we charge people to take up such key roles. This would certainly help with recruitment and retention, and therefore the ability of the NHS to treat a higher number of people.

The problem seems to be around the limitation on the number of graduates places we offer. We currently have around 10k places per year. Labour have committed to increasing this to 15k which is a step in the right direction.

There is no shortage of people applying for medical degrees.

As regards pay its like a lot of post grad jobs, its the opportunity to become a senior doctor or consultant later that they should be targeting. 5 years after graduating being on 65k isnt by any means a poor salary and is significantly higher than a comparable teacher or social worker who arguably provide an equal benefit to society, if we're taking a meritocratic approach to pay.

 

[Kompany Car]

Whatever they settle for will set the benchmark for the already delayed pay increase talks for this year.
Newly qualified doctors are leaving uni with exorbitant amounts of debt. It would be difficult to then try and retain them with a threat of financial punishment.
An easier solution would be to train all healthcare workers for free with a 5 year nhs contract at the end. If that’s not adhered to then a financial penalty or de-registration could be an option.
It’s not just newly qualified that are leaving for Oz/Canada, plenty of consultant qualified registrars can’t get positions and are taking their vast experience away.
How labour settle the junior doctors dispute will be an excellent insight into how they plan to manage the nhs in the future.

Exorbitant levels of debt are a problem for most graduates, its by no means a unique problem for medical graduates. Plenty of other STEM graduates are required in the UK, so it would be odd to single out one group. Whilst it would seem on the surface to not charge for STEM subjects and instead make degrees in underwater basket weaving really expensive, most universities lose money on the technical subjects and make it back on the arts based ones.

Its interesting that you mentioned consultant registrars not being able to get positions. I assume thats because the roles are not there due to cutbacks, or is it something else ? I must admit I was surprised to see a qualified GP the other day on a programme saying she couldn't get a job which did seem rather odd.

 

[kaz7]

The whole pathway for drs and nurses need looking at, nurses should go back to learning on the job again , we did a stint in school learning the basics , three monthly placements across all the specialities with school and exams inbetween, no debts as by working on the wards they are contributing and working

There needs to be lots more training places for both and there are plenty of jobs available to fill when qualified

Time for a rethink and get the system working better and also change the pay scales to reflect the unique and wonderful jobs they do , the basis of what we are is our health, without it life is very miserable and obviously fatal in cases , drs and nurses are the difference between life and death , pay them properly ffs

 

[PPT]

Whatever they settle for will set the benchmark for the already delayed pay increase talks for this year.
Newly qualified doctors are leaving uni with exorbitant amounts of debt. It would be difficult to then try and retain them with a threat of financial punishment.
An easier solution would be to train all healthcare workers for free with a 5 year nhs contract at the end. If that’s not adhered to then a financial penalty or de-registration could be an option.
It’s not just newly qualified that are leaving for Oz/Canada, plenty of consultant qualified registrars can’t get positions and are taking their vast experience away.
How labour settle the junior doctors dispute will be an excellent insight into how they plan to manage the nhs in the future.

They will pay them.
Just like the Tories should have done.
They deserve it.

 

[BayernMan]

Good.

 

[blue b4 the moon]

Good.

Don't let the door hit your arses on the way out.

 

[Manc in London]

The problem seems to be around the limitation on the number of graduates places we offer. We currently have around 10k places per year. Labour have committed to increasing this to 15k which is a step in the right direction.

There is no shortage of people applying for medical degrees.

As regards pay its like a lot of post grad jobs, its the opportunity to become a senior doctor or consultant later that they should be targeting. 5 years after graduating being on 65k isnt by any means a poor salary and is significantly higher than a comparable teacher or social worker who arguably provide an equal benefit to society, if we're taking a meritocratic approach to pay.

For sure, the number of places need to increase.

I am not quit sure a doctor and social worker, for example, are equivalent.
My understanding is that not all Junior Doctors are on the salary you quoted and the starting salaries are higher for social workers than junior doctors. In addition to that, middle management posts in social services are £90k plus in London while Assistant Directors (c£120k), Directors (c160k) and Executive Directors (c£190k) in social care at councils earn plenty. That's comparable to senior doctors and consultants. While AMHPs, with no managerial responsibility, are on the equivalent of the high end of Junior Doctors salaries for simply being on-call. There are social care OTs in some parts of London being paid c£70k. Even in the area of education psychology, councils are paying psychologists over £70k.

You also have to take into account hours worked. I manage workforce data, among various other things, for a public sector organisation. Social workers average hours worked per week is just a tick of over 40. I would think a Junior Doctor would be happy working only those hours.

If you were to consider junior doctors as equivalent to social workers, they should be paid more.

 

[Pedestrian]

Exorbitant levels of debt are a problem for most graduates, its by no means a unique problem for medical graduates. Plenty of other STEM graduates are required in the UK, so it would be odd to single out one group. Whilst it would seem on the surface to not charge for STEM subjects and instead make degrees in underwater basket weaving really expensive, most universities lose money on the technical subjects and make it back on the arts based ones.

Its interesting that you mentioned consultant registrars not being able to get positions. I assume thats because the roles are not there due to cutbacks, or is it something else ? I must admit I was surprised to see a qualified GP the other day on a programme saying she couldn't get a job which did seem rather odd.

Medics are spending 5 yrs at uni which is different to most STEM courses. If we are wanting to retain junior doctors post training then there needs to be change. The wage needs increasing by a hefty amount which will lead onto further hefty pay rises in the nhs. If we could find a way to reduce the debt post uni then the lower wage proposals would be easier to discuss.

The registrars I work with that are leaving are doing so because there are no cons posts to take up. If we increase the consultant positions we have more senior doctors making decisions on the floor which is only a win for the entire service.
Inevitably there’s going to be pay rises in the nhs. How they fund this is anyone’s guess but it’s going to happen.