Ticket Points Sales Tracking

Chappie said:
For every away match, their are roughly 1500 people getting tickets who also don't qualify but they don't seem to come under the same scrutiny ,from within the club as the loyalty point holders.
Colin,just out of interest how did the club the club gather the information as to the amount of tickets being used by different people rather than the owner for away matches?
Click to expand...
They made stuff up which City Matters lapped up. It's pathetic.
 
Eds said:
If we accept this as being the case then why aren't tickets being sold at lower points now. The fans that apparently bought the tickets to gain the points but didn't want to attend the games no longer have the need to buy them which in turn should mean that those lower down the points ladder should be able to attend. What we have now is tickets being sold for three figures via ticket agencies with hundreds of tickets being siphoned off by the club.
By all means scrap the points for away games and keep them in place for purchasing SC, being in cup schemes but the issue is that these fans are being pushed to one side by the club. Why on earth are pointless vloggers with no affiliation to the club ending up in our end at away games. Why are united fans wearing their colours ending up in our end at away games. Why are fans of the home club ending up in our end at away games. Why are people who don't even follow the club but just want to say they have attended a PL game ended up in our end at big away games. This is what the club needs to sort out. The biggest abusers of the system are the club itself yet the regular match going fan, young and old are the ones being affected.
Click to expand...
Because he’s talking bollocks.
 
Eds said:
If we accept this as being the case then why aren't tickets being sold at lower points now. The fans that apparently bought the tickets to gain the points but didn't want to attend the games no longer have the need to buy them which in turn should mean that those lower down the points ladder should be able to attend. What we have now is tickets being sold for three figures via ticket agencies with hundreds of tickets being siphoned off by the club.
By all means scrap the points for away games and keep them in place for purchasing SC, being in cup schemes but the issue is that these fans are being pushed to one side by the club. Why on earth are pointless vloggers with no affiliation to the club ending up in our end at away games. Why are united fans wearing their colours ending up in our end at away games. Why are fans of the home club ending up in our end at away games. Why are people who don't even follow the club but just want to say they have attended a PL game ended up in our end at big away games. This is what the club needs to sort out. The biggest abusers of the system are the club itself yet the regular match going fan, young and old are the ones being affected.
Click to expand...
The club don’t give a fuck. That is very clear.
 
Prestwich_Blue said:
I'm not going to be polite to people who impugn my integrity and that of my CM colleagues, or accuses us of acting purely in self-interest. That's far more abusive than a name or two. If you want to have an intelligent discussion then I'll have one but if you just throw out unfounded insults then that's what you'll get back.

We had the evidence from the club and ALL the City Matters group agreed it was the right thing to do. It was the right decision and nothing or no one will ever convince me otherwise. And I think all nine of my colleagues when we took that decision would agree.

But I do agree the points system is a load of shite, and we tried to get the club to change it. They're still talking about it as far as I know. And while I completely agree with the 'fuck united fans and their club' comment, at least they're trying to protect the integrity of their ticket allocations, whereby people allocated tickets use them, rather than arguing for an unfair system where people got points when they had no intention of attending a game by giving tickets to people who wouldn't have qualified.
Click to expand...

I'm not talking about your colleagues at CM and their roles at the time, I'm talking specifically about you. You were appointed to represent us, the season ticket holders, yet we saw no sign of any representation. You never asked our opinion, you never listened to our feedback, you never took this feedback to the club, there was absolutely no transparency. To the point that a small group of supporters actually tried to set up an individual supporters trust due to your inaction.

This is why Alex has been a breath of fresh air and stands out. He listens, he engages and he takes our opinions and presents them to the club. Now, we might not like the response and the decisions the club makes but at least he's actually representing us and every step he takes is transparent. You only have to look at what he's achieved so far in such a short space of time to back this opinion up.

What evidence could the club possibly have showed you that proved supporters were buying tickets with the sole intention of not attending the fixture? All you did was pave the way for the club to introduce digital tickets, making it easier for the club to restrict the sale to genuine supporters and instead, push these tickets to 3rd party sites and corporates.

And again, I'm not the only person who holds this opinion about you and the job you did of representing us.

So who's actually the dickhead?
 
Last edited:
Has anyone who’s been watching City for years not been able to get a ticket for any match that they really wanted to attend?

Even if that means going in the home end, begging on a forum or socials, paying a tout or over the odds, climbing in at Blackburn in 2000, asking people route to the ground or even as a last resort standing outside the away end asking for spares on the day of the match.

You do what you need if you really want to go.
 
Prestwich_Blue said:
We had the evidence from the club and ALL the City Matters group agreed it was the right thing to do. It was the right decision and nothing or no one will ever convince me otherwise. And I think all nine of my colleagues when we took that decision would agree.
Click to expand...
Colin, you and I have clashed over this before and I am not asking this to ruffle your feathers or anything, just a genuine question around this: was there ever a discussion around punishing those that the club had evidence of them passing tickets on against instead of stopping points?
 
TheGhost said:
Has anyone who’s been watching City for years not been able to get a ticket for any match that they really wanted to attend?

Even if that means going in the home end, begging on a forum or socials, paying a tout or over the odds, climbing in at Blackburn in 2000, asking people route to the ground or even as a last resort standing outside the away end asking for spares on the day of the match.

You do what you need if you really want to go.
Click to expand...

I agree but even this is getting harder to do. With the points threshold increasing every year, what chance have younger supporters got of catching up? My lad is 11, he's been a season ticket holder for 4 years, we pay for platinum and are on all the cup schemes. The most points we can accumulate in one season is 1,340 and that's assuming that we get to the final of every competition and assuming we get drawn at home in every round of the League Cup & FA Cup.

So for him to get to 25k points it'll take over 20 years and that's assuming that no one else continues to accumulate points. The system needs a overhaul, the corporate allocation needs to be reviewed and the club needs to stop selling tickets to 3rd party sites.
 
liamctid said:
Colin, you and I have clashed over this before and I am not asking this to ruffle your feathers or anything, just a genuine question around this: was there ever a discussion around punishing those that the club had evidence of them passing tickets on against instead of stopping points?
Click to expand...
There was Liam. In fact we discussed it a lot. I don't want to say too much but I can say there was general agreement that there had to be sanctions but there could also be genuine reasons why people passed tickets on. Obviously lockdown got in the way and I'm not involved in CM any more. But I do know that some of the most vocal opponents of ticket collection, including one on here, were regularly passing tickets on, including to non-season ticket holders.
 
Quinny851 said:
I agree but even this is getting harder to do. With the points threshold increasing every year, what chance have younger supporters got of catching up? My lad is 11, he's been a season ticket holder for 4 years, we pay for platinum and are on all the cup schemes. The most points we can accumulate in one season is 1,340 and that's assuming that we get to the final of every competition and assuming we get drawn at home in every round of the League Cup & FA Cup.

So for him to get to 25k points it'll take over 20 years and that's assuming that no one else continues to accumulate points. The system needs a overhaul, the corporate allocation needs to be reviewed and the club needs to stop selling tickets to 3rd party sites.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately the points in your last paragraph have been doing the rounds for 10 years - coincidentally not long after we started winning stuff and became a draw (before that you had a pretty good chance if you'd attended 50% of away games). It sounds like it's getting worse, but I'm not sure it is - I think it's simply static.
I don't have a solution - the 3rd party sites aside.
The arguments still hold water - alot of people put in a lot of hard yards when we were shite, some of them may be fortunate to be able to afford corporate these days.
Tracking who uses a ticket is almost impossible for away trips - aside from ticket on collection (that's a ball ache trust me), or getting away stewards to police it (yeah right)
I don't care these days as I stopped qualifying a while ago, couldn't be arsed points chasing and no longer have a season card.
So in summary - bring in a ballot evenly split
 
Quinny851 said:
I'm not talking about your colleagues at CM and their roles at the time, I'm talking specifically about you. You were appointed to represent us, the season ticket holders, yet we saw no sign of any representation. You never asked our opinion, you never listened to our feedback, you never took this feedback to the club, there was absolutely no transparency. To the point that a small group of supporters actually tried to set up an individual supporters trust due to your inaction.

This is why Alex has been a breath of fresh air and stands out. He listens, he engages and he takes our opinions and presents them to the club. Now, we might not like the response and the decisions the club makes but at least he's actually representing us and every step he takes is transparent. You only have to look at what he's achieved so far in such a short space of time to back this opinion up.

What evidence could the club possibly have showed you that proved supporters were buying tickets with the sole intention of not attending the fixture? All you did was pave the way for the club to introduce digital tickets, making it easier for the club to restrict the sale to genuine supporters and instead, push these tickets to 3rd party sites and corporates.

And again, I'm not the only person who holds this opinion about you and the job you did of representing us.

So who's actually the dickhead?
Click to expand...
Did you go to the last game at Upton Park mate? It was evident that the people who actually owned the season cards turned up that day because I didn’t recognise the vast majority of our end (and I very rarely missed a game).

I won’t be going to Liverpool Away and I think it’s a shithole. We’ve had a run of 4 away games when Blues using their nounce could get into all 4 games, with very few ticket points.

I’m not really in favour or against the removal of away ticket points. It hasn’t had much affect given the removal of ID. If a fixture doesn’t reach my points I don’t go but I respect Blues who use their initiative to source tickets. When I went to every game, I would work my sox off to source tickets.

I think the Club are taking the piss with the points allocation for the “big” games. They should deliver on the agreed ticket quotas.
 
Quinny851 said:
I'm not talking about your colleagues at CM and their roles at the time, I'm talking specifically about you. You were appointed to represent us, the season ticket holders, yet we saw no sign of any representation. You never asked our opinion, you never listened to our feedback, you never took this feedback to the club, there was absolutely no transparency. To the point that a small group of supporters actually tried to set up an individual supporters trust due to your inaction.

This is why Alex has been a breath of fresh air and stands out. He listens, he engages and he takes our opinions and presents them to the club. Now, we might not like the response and the decisions the club makes but at least he's actually representing us and every step he takes is transparent. You only have to look at what he's achieved so far in such a short space of time to back this opinion up.

What evidence could the club possibly have showed you that proved supporters were buying tickets with the sole intention of not attending the fixture? All you did was pave the way for the club to introduce digital tickets, making it easier for the club to restrict the sale to genuine supporters and instead, push these tickets to 3rd party sites and corporates.

And again, I'm not the only person who holds this opinion about you and the job you did of representing us.

So who's actually the dickhead?
Click to expand...
Spot on.
 
I don’t get involved in much of this debate over points and tickets. Because it’s just an ongoing round of people repeating the same few things.

But I will say this. That come tomorrow night, they’ll be a small band of fans who in the space of 11 days have been to Bournemouth, Tottenham, Lisbon and Brighton. I don’t know how many? Maybe in the region of 300? Just a wild guess.

Yet they’ll be people saying that the majority of them shouldn’t be guaranteed a Liverpool ticket just because they are ‘lucky’ enough to be on 30K+ points.

This is the only part of it I feel strongly about. The day they throw those fans in to a ballot with fans who fancy an odd away game, will be the day it really all dies for me
 
The move to scrap away ticket points was before my time on City Matters, so I don't want to dwell on the process that led to that decision. But I do think that it was the wrong move to make.

For a start, I think it fundamentally misunderstands why most individuals passed on tickets. I would wager that most do so to help out a mate, rather than some grand conspiracy to attain ticket points. In which case, the removal of away ticket points has made no little to no difference in passing on a ticket.

Secondly, by removing away ticket points we withdrew the most liquid part of the system. It's actually quite easy to obtain the maximum number of ticket points in a season - you have to be a season card holder on platinum and on the cup schemes. I think there are quite a lot of people who fall into this category, particularly those who intend to go to away matches. The impact of this has been to really slow down the ability to catch those above you in the pecking order. As long as you purchase all your home tickets and platinum, you can't be caught by those below you - even if you didn't attend a single away match and the other person attended every single one.

As an aside, I am also concerned about the ever increasing scrutiny placed on ticket point holders when other methods to secure tickets are somewhat less regulated.

This is an opinion I have held for a number of years. To the extent that I produced a paper in early 2022 (later updated) setting out my concerns. Please bare in mind that this is now quite old and there may be the odd inaccuracy (such as the date for the introduction of ticket points, for example).

docs.google.com

City Matters - Young Fan Away Tickets Paper-2.docx

City Matters: A Review of the Current Ticket Point System with Specific Reference to Away Matches In 1999, the Club introduced what was then known as loyalty points (since renamed ticket points). Loyalty points were used to stagger access to Manchester City fixtures, particularly away matches,...
docs.google.com docs.google.com

I have raised my concerns and this paper on a number of occasions with the Club. We have finally started to take this forward in the Ticketing Sub Group, which in a sense is a comment on the governance of City Matters but let's leave that for today.

With this in mind, I would welcome any thoughts on some of the proposals outlined in the paper. Whilst I appreciate that some are more far fetched, such as the removal of platinum or reintroduction of away points, I am particularly interested in views about rewarding attendance when a ticket is used at the turnstile.
 
I also wanted to flag that the Club are keen to revisit the idea of collection for some away tickets.

They raised this at our latest City Matters meeting, which can be found in the minutes.

https://www.mancity.com/meta/media/...ll-group-minutes-monday-14th-october-2024.pdf

The Club highlighted concerns with fans attending away matches when they have not purchased in line with the criteria and the idea of going back to ticket collection at the away match for a number of tickets. This topic and the Club’s proposal will be discussed in more detail in the City Matters Ticketing sub-group.

Again, I would welcome views.
 
Alex - City Matters said:
I also wanted to flag that the Club are keen to revisit the idea of collection for some away tickets.

They raised this at our latest City Matters meeting, which can be found in the minutes.

https://www.mancity.com/meta/media/...ll-group-minutes-monday-14th-october-2024.pdf

The Club highlighted concerns with fans attending away matches when they have not purchased in line with the criteria and the idea of going back to ticket collection at the away match for a number of tickets. This topic and the Club’s proposal will be discussed in more detail in the City Matters Ticketing sub-group.

Again, I would welcome views.
Click to expand...
My view:

We had to go out of our way to collect tickets in Paris about 8 years ago, but there were no queues when we got to the venue. We had to queue for around an hour in Glasgow later that season and it started to rain while we were queueing outside. The club employees organising the ticket distribution seemed to be enjoying their moment of power over the real supporters. - It has been claimed that holders of hospitality season tickets and box holders did not have to queue with the common rabble, but I don't think that has ever been proven.

I still believe the prime issue to be resolved is that of third party "ticket partners" having access to scarce away tickets, whether these are sold at a profit or not. Allocating any tickets to these organisations is legalised touting and is an insult to loyal supporters. We don't need help selling tickets for at least 90% of our away games so why ruin the reputation of the club for a few quid extra from these touts.
 
I know City put away tickets on the agenda at the start of City Matters but it just wasn’t the highest priority. Home tickets was a much bigger issue with, for example, people hoarding season cards and turning up for a few games per season. The fans’ reps might have had no say on the agenda but this false prioritisation did lasting damage to City Matters that detracted from plenty of good work that’s been done.

Maybe the Club listened to a very vocal minority of fans who were obsessed with away tickets. The Club may also have had the motivation to get more corporates into the “big games”. It feels like a bit of a Trojan Horse. That’s easy to say with hindsight, of course.
 
Alex - City Matters said:
I also wanted to flag that the Club are keen to revisit the idea of collection for some away tickets.

They raised this at our latest City Matters meeting, which can be found in the minutes.

https://www.mancity.com/meta/media/...ll-group-minutes-monday-14th-october-2024.pdf

The Club highlighted concerns with fans attending away matches when they have not purchased in line with the criteria and the idea of going back to ticket collection at the away match for a number of tickets. This topic and the Club’s proposal will be discussed in more detail in the City Matters Ticketing sub-group.

Again, I would welcome views.
Click to expand...
Did I read somewhere or did I imagine it that all grounds from next season or the season after must have digital tickets. If so would they still make a random few collect at the ground
 
Alex - City Matters said:
The move to scrap away ticket points was before my time on City Matters, so I don't want to dwell on the process that led to that decision. But I do think that it was the wrong move to make.

For a start, I think it fundamentally misunderstands why most individuals passed on tickets. I would wager that most do so to help out a mate, rather than some grand conspiracy to attain ticket points. In which case, the removal of away ticket points has made no little to no difference in passing on a ticket.

Secondly, by removing away ticket points we withdrew the most liquid part of the system. It's actually quite easy to obtain the maximum number of ticket points in a season - you have to be a season card holder on platinum and on the cup schemes. I think there are quite a lot of people who fall into this category, particularly those who intend to go to away matches. The impact of this has been to really slow down the ability to catch those above you in the pecking order. As long as you purchase all your home tickets and platinum, you can't be caught by those below you - even if you didn't attend a single away match and the other person attended every single one.

As an aside, I am also concerned about the ever increasing scrutiny placed on ticket point holders when other methods to secure tickets are somewhat less regulated.

This is an opinion I have held for a number of years. To the extent that I produced a paper in early 2022 (later updated) setting out my concerns. Please bare in mind that this is now quite old and there may be the odd inaccuracy (such as the date for the introduction of ticket points, for example).

docs.google.com

City Matters - Young Fan Away Tickets Paper-2.docx

City Matters: A Review of the Current Ticket Point System with Specific Reference to Away Matches In 1999, the Club introduced what was then known as loyalty points (since renamed ticket points). Loyalty points were used to stagger access to Manchester City fixtures, particularly away matches,...
docs.google.com docs.google.com

I have raised my concerns and this paper on a number of occasions with the Club. We have finally started to take this forward in the Ticketing Sub Group, which in a sense is a comment on the governance of City Matters but let's leave that for today.

With this in mind, I would welcome any thoughts on some of the proposals outlined in the paper. Whilst I appreciate that some are more far fetched, such as the removal of platinum or reintroduction of away points, I am particularly interested in views about rewarding attendance when a ticket is used at the turnstile.
Click to expand...
It was before your time so if you don't believe me, then ask Simon & Kevin.

We've had this discussion before as part of CM and you're the only one making the case for reintroducing away ticket points. But then you've got high points so you would be in favour. Be careful you don't get accused of acting in self interest, like I have. However, there are ways this could be done, as I describe below.

As I've said to you before, your reasoning on people being able to catch up is flawed. The reason people can't catch up is that people on high points generally bought tickets even if they planned to sell them on. Whether that's to family, mates, members of their supporters clubs, on here or other social media sites like Facebook pages and Twitter. It's easy to get rid of a ticket, particularly when demand outstrips supply. This is the core of the problem and that's why the club were gathering evidence about it and wanted to stop it. For one reason, it's not fair to those with high points who miss out. For another, the risk is that tickets fall into the wrong hands, be that third party sites, touts or just individual away fans. I don't think anyone would disagree that we need to clamp down on that. If there's a way of stopping people selling on away tickets then your argument makes more sense but until there is (see below) it doesn't.

I do agree that if there's enforcement then it has to be across the board, but you might want to have a word with Kevin about what they do at OSC level to try to minimise this. On the basis of things I've been told, I believe a lot of the problem starts in Hospitality.

But there are scenarios where it would be feasible to reintroduce points. One is ticket collection at venue. As I've said, united do 100% collections and the fans support that. We maybe don't have to go that far but the level of collection has to be significant, 50 tickets doesn't cut it, and I agree it has to apply across the board, not just general admission season ticket holders.

The other, which is probably more promising, is digital ticketing, which is due to be mandatory from 2026. https://www.premierleague.com/news/4071456

If away tickets were also digital then they can be tracked and that should remove a lot of the problems.

Another thing (and I believe you're talking about this) is changing the points system. It was introduced in 2001 or 2002 I think, and were the only club who use the lifetime accumulation of points. The other 'big 6' teams, who have big away followings, use a maximum 3-year rolling system to allocate away tickets. We talked at length and in great detail about moving to a 5-year system but we were keen to ensure that there was a fair system for doing that, that didn't unfairly disadvantage existing fans with high points. But there are ways of doing that that aren't beyond the wit of the people dealing with the issues, such as you and the other CM members.
 
Prestwich_Blue said:
It was before your time so if you don't believe me, then ask Simon & Kevin.

We've had this discussion before as part of CM and you're the only one making the case for reintroducing away ticket points. But then you've got high points so you would be in favour. Be careful you don't get accused of acting in self interest, like I have. However, there are ways this could be done, as I describe below.

As I've said to you before, your reasoning on people being able to catch up is flawed. The reason people can't catch up is that people on high points generally bought tickets even if they planned to sell them on. Whether that's to family, mates, members of their supporters clubs, on here or other social media sites like Facebook pages and Twitter. It's easy to get rid of a ticket, particularly when demand outstrips supply. This is the core of the problem and that's why the club were gathering evidence about it and wanted to stop it. For one reason, it's not fair to those with high points who miss out. For another, the risk is that tickets fall into the wrong hands, be that third party sites, touts or just individual away fans. I don't think anyone would disagree that we need to clamp down on that. If there's a way of stopping people selling on away tickets then your argument makes more sense but until there is (see below) it doesn't.

I do agree that if there's enforcement then it has to be across the board, but you might want to have a word with Kevin about what they do at OSC level to try to minimise this. On the basis of things I've been told, I believe a lot of the problem starts in Hospitality.

But there are scenarios where it would be feasible to reintroduce points. One is ticket collection at venue. As I've said, united do 100% collections and the fans support that. We maybe don't have to go that far but the level of collection has to be significant, 50 tickets doesn't cut it, and I agree it has to apply across the board, not just general admission season ticket holders.

The other, which is probably more promising, is digital ticketing, which is due to be mandatory from 2026. https://www.premierleague.com/news/4071456

If away tickets were also digital then they can be tracked and that should remove a lot of the problems.

Another thing (and I believe you're talking about this) is changing the points system. It was introduced in 2001 or 2002 I think, and were the only club who use the lifetime accumulation of points. The other 'big 6' teams, who have big away followings, use a maximum 3-year rolling system to allocate away tickets. We talked at length and in great detail about moving to a 5-year system but we were keen to ensure that there was a fair system for doing that, that didn't unfairly disadvantage existing fans with high points. But there are ways of doing that that aren't beyond the wit of the people dealing with the issues, such as you and the other CM members.
Click to expand...
Digital tickets are easier to pass on than paper tickets
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Unread Posts

Don't have an account? Register now and see fewer ads!

SIGN UP
Back
Top